ok, this is me putting my serious mod hat on:

it's not a pressing matter at all as long as you guys keep the language down and all that jazz. y'all are makin mountains out of molehills and we will not ban people as long as they heed our warnings. if you fix what you've been warned for, we have no reason to ban you.

annnnnnd yep that's all I got!! please stop freaking out about it now, guys :I

(also just for the record, us less active mods still lurk around, and I think we have a good idea of how things work. on top of that, we keep eachother updated about goings-on pretty well and only carry out things after talking with other mod(s). for the most part. so there's that.)

i understand that IT'S WHY I MADE IT LOL
the issue here is vicats told me that it was being debated whether i was going to be permab& or not and at the very least i would have my member title and signature "privileges" revoked ~forever
i completely like...that is exactly what i told vicats to begin with asdjkasdj!!!

WHOA WALL OF TEXT.


I think you have blown the warnings I sent to you and Meep way, way out of proportion. They were just, y'know, warnings. It should pretty much be a given that: user breaks rule > mod sends them a warning > and if user continues to break rules > there will be more ~*~*~dire consequences~*~*~. Because at that point the user has already officially been reminded of the rules and told to stop their rule breaking.

The PM I sent to both you and Meep in no way said "STRIKE TWO YOU'RE PERMABANNED FOREVER NOW" like you are making it out to be. Verbatim what I sent you was:

Which is completely true, of any member of these forums. Technically, if you continue to break rules when a mod has told you to stop (and, in this case, I knew that Sun had already told you to stop once prior), then you will be banned because you've left them no choice when you willfully disregard their warnings.

But again, what I sent you and Meep was a warning. You both have received no other punishment yet for swearing in your member titles; you were just told to stop.

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about. This is pretty much a non-issue because you know swearing is not allowed, I have officially reminded you swearing is not allowed, and if you don't continue to swear on this site then problem solved, you won't be banned for swearing.

If a mod specifically told you to stop something you shouldn't just assume that if another user starts doing that thing, that means suddenly it's AOK (I'd actually naturally assume that that user was just breaking the same rule I was). If you were unsure, you should have PMed Sun about Meep's title, not just immediately start swearing again in your title when it was made explicitly clear to you that that's not OK. Another user breaking a rule is no excuse for you breaking the same rule. Every user on this site is responsible for their own actions, independent of what other users choose to do.

I've been around Neopound long enough to understand the "flow of it", and I actually lurk frequently enough to have a pretty in-depth understanding of the current community dynamics and the relationships of the users that are active on this site. And, as Kat said, the mods keep each other well informed of the going ons, esp. if trouble happens to arise. I still actually consider myself a part of the Neopound community (albeit a lurking one), even if some other people on this site do not.

okay apparently something is VERY WRONG HERE because vicats kept telling us it was the other mods pressuring her to permab& me + said it was the lurker ones i.e. you guys???? THIS IS WHY EVERYONE WAS WORKED UP LOL VICATS....HFGHJFGJFHG

okay well gotdamn the ~evidence is in this mail she sent to olivia but olivia is offline basically she told us it was between permab& and noob status 4ever to "satiate the other mods" as she put it

SO LIKE THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WARNINGS THIS IS ABOUT WHAT VICATS WAS THREATENING TO DO AND IS APPARENTLY NOT EVEN HAPPENING LOL....dghjhjgh god this makes me really angry/disappoint

i was arguing that the warning was fine because that was all she needed to stop me but she was like NO THEY WANT YOU B&

vicats when you see this can you post that mail?

uh
I never pressured anyone for immediate permabanning. Nor did any of the other mods, as far as I'm concerned. In the mod discussion I made my position clear in that, if any user continues to break rules repeatedly even after being told to stop, then that user should face a ban because they're leaving the mods with little else choice. As such, I was only advocating for your bans if either you or Meep disregarded my PM and chose to continue swearing, because that would've meant you've disregarded 2 mod warnings already for the same offense and committed it a 3rd time.

The conversation did turn into hypotheticals in what to do with you and Meep if you continued to break rules (esp. since at this point the swearing is already a recurring infraction with you two), and that's where the discussion of permabanning or revoked titles/signature privileges came up. But again, that was just the mods covering bases and preparing for the worst, trying to figure out what to do if you kept disregarding the rules/mod warnings.

no no vicats assured us it was for THIS time and told us she was holding what she called "A SECRET MOD TRIBUNAL" (that was what she kept repeating in all caps) as we spoke deciding what OUR FATE was gonna be

this is why i got so bent out of shape because like...i was p sure that was ridiculous and did not sound like something the mods would do but she kept telling us, including today when olivia asked her for an update over pm

i can send anyone who needs them the chatlogs?? but i'm sure kat has informed you of what happened in the chat
+ like i said olivia has the mails but is offline...she'll be up soon and vicats should be able to post them when she gets on

ugh omg i cannot right now, i cannot
SLAMMING MY HEAD ON DESK REPEATEDLY
i'll wait for vicats to get on i spose

naw, as long as you correct your behaviour we won't complain further, dunno why Vicats thought otherwise. warning you for something and then turning around and banning you for it when you'd already corrected it would be pretty ridiculous.

MAN we're not that bad, seriously :c just because Idiocon sent out two warnings for something does not mean we are going to turn annihilate you off the board a day later.

and to clear things up even further, we don't do these things recklessly. I've banned a few neopounders in my day, but it wasn't without a lot of discussion between ALL active mods. if I could just ban people willy nilly, I'd probably be the only person here, making conversations with myself and then lurking said conversations with myself on the minis boards forever and ever. so consider that.

EDIT: we've got chatlogs! /thumbs up

well
jfc i cannot



vicats i'mma sleep but i hope you realize what you caused with this everyone is ~*~boycotting your forums~*~ because you convinced us there was a secret tribunal of mods out for blood and i am just kind of IN SHOCK over here because i was convinced you were a pretty cool guy standin up for my honor and crap but

lol this entire ~drama

So from reading this entire thread, I've gathered the following:

- Speck spent lots of time on Neopound and has thus gained the right to be a little less careful about her behavior over Neopound
- The rules are less strict now because times change
- Speck acts jokingly most of the time, not maliciously
- A threat of a permaban will possibly take place
- Not all mods are active enough to know how Neopound works anymore

- Overdramatic description of what really happened
- Warnings, not threats to ban
- Mods lurk and therefore know what they're doing

- Correction of misbehavior will result in no ban

- Vicats is apparently trying to satiate the mods (I'd like Vicats' side of that? Though I'm not doubting you, Speck - seems unfair to not let her defend herself) and feels pressured to ban Speck/Meep.

---

Make of this list what you will, but I think it pretty much sums up everything that's been said on the thread as of yet. Most of what I want to say has already been said, but this is my little addition to the argument:

First of all, the rules have become less strict on Neopound, but that doesn't mean that you guys can interpret them so loosely either. Neopound is currently in a stage of transition from where it used to be solely about Neopets/applications/etc to where it's now just a place for us to hang out because most of us don't do that, or even go on Neo, anymore.

We are more liberal, yes, but at this point in time, it's still a trial-and-error stage. The rules are vague because we want to give you guys room to interpret the rules as you'd like and make mature decisions on what to do. Most of Neopound is made up of older users now, and so a few inappropriate jokes here and there wouldn't do much harm. However, we still have a younger audience at Neopound too, so it's important to keep in mind their innocence as well.

In the case that you guys do abuse this new freedom, we'll just tighten the leash again and go back to the way it was before, but if you guys can handle this responsibility, then I don't see a problem with keeping things as they are.

So far, nothing major has happened yet to warrant a ban, you're right, but everything adds up eventually. Misbehavior results in warnings, and multiple warnings result in permanent bans. From what I've seen and heard, no one plans on banning you just yet, Speck - it's just that at the rate you've been going lately, it was likely to happen soon.

However, the decision hasn't been made yet, and the mods are all carefully debating it. Nothing is concrete, but you should've known that it was bound to happen if you kept breaking the rules.

Everything else has sort of been blown out of proportion. The mods aren't hungry for flesh and bone - they're reasonable people trying to make reasonable decisions. If you, too, act reasonable, then we'd have no reason to consider banning you at all. I don't see what the fuss is all about.

man ok i have 2 comments

1. everyone is not BOYCOTTING NEOPOUND FOREVERRRRR ok stuff is going down be we will be coming back to neopound (argh breaking code of silence for this)

2. speck i do think you are a little over dramatic about what happened and blow tings out of proportions at time

we were told you may be banned after some mod meeting or smmk, but we were also told THINGS WERE NOT FINAL YET and TALKS MUST HAPPENED and if bad things were coming WE'D BE WARNED IN ADVANCE so its not like it was just "btw speck you're being banned soon"


on the other side
i do feel we were a little deceived on this thing? like i viewed idiocon's lil' warning as just "hey knock that crap out swearing is bad 8U"
and then after the talk in the con i really did kind of feel like lurker mods had like grown to hate us or smmk

so i mean there is wrong doings and whatnot on both sides
and i think hearing from the other mods was good cuz it kind of set us straight a little

but either way I FEEL THIS SHOULD BE DEALT W/ IN PRIVATE

oh god damn it speck
there are so many things wrong with this post i dont even know where to start
i think i will just leave it at that

oh hearty beat me to one of them (the most important one: WE ARE NOT BOYCOTTING THE FORUMS OUT OF SPITE) but still
i feel like it should be pointed out multiple times

edit: basically to make this more clear what I'm saying here is that Speckled's posts are not representative of the majority opinion and should not be taken as such

I have no opinion regarding the Speckled/Idunt issue......

In regards to mods, I would like to voice the following.


Moderators should be an active part of the community they manage.

The privilege of power granted to them recognizes their contributions to the community and reaffirms their role as core participants and content contributors.

Mods are first and foremost, members, and beyond that regular contributing members.

Limitations to term and power should be imposed should mods fall behind in their principle role as contributing members such that no participation in a certain preordained timespan equates loss of mod privileges.

The current lack of checks and balances to the power of absentee and non contributing mods remain one of many roots to user discontent.

The demographics and population structure has changed substantially in past years. The length of you tenure holds little relevance without supporting participation.

Zoey is the oldest out of all of us. Im sure she would be in an optimal position to manage this forum.

I have not much to say. I lurk here a whole lot and have seen quite a few changes in people and dynamics over the years. I'm really fond of my fellow neopounders. At the same time, I know why the mods need to stick a neck out for our forums. We don't want neopound to be known as a clique band of dirty mouthed characters. It was intended to bring in new creative minds, develop that creativity, join people with common interest.

I saw a post a while ago by a newbie and the newbie got his/her head chopped off and I pondered for a moment. If it had been a regular, everyone would react so much differently with a lot more empathy. The same time I see posts of our regulars and I know them well enough to know when they are being sarcastic, but to a person unfamiliar with them, the post could be seen as quite hurtful.

This issue really isn't that big of a deal, but I did want to take a moment to point it out.

time to fetch dem readin' glasses, gang

Dorothy is completely right about this, but I also want to add that, while a new gray area may have developed for some lighter swears, it should be common sense that the f-word would never be allowed on Neopound. At its core we are still a Neopets fansite community: we do still have a younger audience alongside our older members, and younger players from Neopets can find their way onto Neopound at any time.

Y'know, I feel like a lot of this drama and resultant anxiety could have been avoided if anyone chose to send me like a two second PM just going, "Hey Idiocon, are you looking to get Speck permabanned?" and I could've explained myself directly. I'm not really so ridiculously unreasonable that you (that is, neopound collectively) can't PM me with a simple follow up question to some warning I sent.

While I agree with you for the most part, I disagree that all mods, without exception, need to be constantly posting and contributing to the forums in that particular manner to be considered deserving of moderating privileges. I think that by demanding involvement as a core contributor from all of your mods, you risk having all of your mods becoming way too invested in personal stakes within the forum, or their own personal relationships with other members. I personally believe that you can get a more objective decision from a collective group of mods regarding a crisis in the community when there are a couple that can say they are more detached from the situation. It allows for an added perspective that can at times be more objective. I believe that when a mod is too close to the situation, or too close to the people involved in the situation, there can be instances where that mod's judgment can become biased or slanted towards a certain side (e.g. if they're friends with the people involved) and their modly judgment can inadvertently suffer from it. Yes, in a perfect world, a mod is someone who is so level-headed and professional in their duties that they absolutely won't let biases affect their judgment, but in the end we're 1) basically volunteers with raging hormones (considering most of us mods are teens to early 20s) and 2) still human. So it's good to have people that can step back from that attachment, who have been watching the situation from the outside, that can add an opinion that is separated from wanting to please any one person or group. That way you have someone who is completely understanding of the context of the situation while still allowing for an objective perspective from someone with trusted judgment. One or two mods of this nature added into a group of mods that are very involved with and considered core members of the community can help broaden the collective mod perspective and allow for a more well-rounded and balanced final judgment.

(And by the above paragraph, I am in no way talking about a mod or administrator who has not even stepped foot on this site in years, such as your example with Zoey. I am talking about mods like me and Kat that are still active on the site with frequent lurking, even if we don't happen to post much and we don't make that strong personal connection or bond to other regular users.)

You make it sound like every individual mod, including non-posting mods, has this great and infinite power over any and every user's fate when in fact you are ingoring a vital point that's been brought up and repeated several times in this thread: the mods only ever take any type of significant action (such as suspension, bans, etc.) after a very thorough deliberation and discussion between all the active mods.

Obviously if something happens and I was not around for that particular event, the other mods are going to know I wasn't around for it and that I am not going to have as thorough an understanding of the situation. As such, in that instance my opinion on the matter wouldn't hold nearly as much weight as, say, Sun's; I would only be able to comment objectively on what I know to be the rules on Neopound and the offender's actions in relation to that (but at the disadvantage of being outside of the context of this stated hypothetical situation).

But you also have to give me some credit; I'm not such an irrational human being that I'm going to pretend like I know what is going on for something I wasn't around for, and I'm not going to sit there in the mod chats demanding people be permabanned and kicked out of the community when I have no idea what situation I'm talking about.

(In regards to this particular issue, however, I don't believe context of the situation should have any bearing in my decision to send that warning to Speck and Meep, because having the f-word in your custom title is, unequivocally, breaking the rules, and another mod had already addressed them on this issue. This was in no way an "absentee mod acting out of place with no understanding of current population structure" when an actively posting mod such as Sun had already told them to stop.)

Your post implies that the neopound community should be afraid of the fact that we non-posting mods are just standing there at all times by the metaphorical guillotine waiting for the first opportunity we get to separate their lonely-member-heads from the neopound-community-body, but that's absolutely not true. Our main interest has been and will continue to be to do what's best for the community, NOT banning as many people as we can. Believe it or not, even if we aren't actively posting, we still care about this community and we're still reasonable people with good judgment (in fact, I'd like to believe we were made mods in the first place on this basis), and we aren't going to take our duties so lightly as to prematurely make finite decisions regarding other users before we understand the full situation. Which, as stated before, involves very long and intensive deliberation and discussion with all of the mods.

But obviously moderators are here to serve the community before anything else, and if the neopound community is not happy with me as a mod then I will, of course, step down. I only became a mod because I was interested in helping the neopound community to the best of my ability. If Neopound collectively does not believe that that ability aligns anymore with the community's interests, then I will, without hesitation, step down from the mod position and allow someone else to assume these duties. In the end I only want what is best for neopound as a whole, whatever that may be.

You are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I never said that I know about the current demographic and population structure of Neopound solely because I have been registered since 2007. I said that I still understand the community dynamics and the nature of the relationships between the active users on this site because I lurk here quite frequently. Even if I don't post, I am still witness to the way users here interact with the rest of the community and it's not hard to see or understand the community's dynamics.

GOOD HEAVENS LOOK AT DIS POST bolded for your convenience???
@heartakky: i didn't mean OUT OF SPITE ffff because we already spoke with vicats (at least olivia did) about it and told her it was just an experiment, but she still seemed bothered by the fact that no one was posting as evidenced by her meh post so i wanted to let her know if she's bothered by this it was a result of what she told us was going to happen

again, I understand why you're angry, but we've stated our positions and there's really nothing left for us to say. we're not all out to permaban you for this. if you have any further bad blood, it seems to be with Vicats, so I suggest you talk to her about this. we can't really give you much more than what has already been said. :I

honestly I think it was just a bunch of simple misconceptions that have snowballed into something greatly out of proportion. bottom line is, as far as the rest of the mods are concerned, you're not getting banned for this incident. you don't need to keep defending yourself to us; the situation is good as over. talk to Vicats in private if that isn't enough for you.

Yeah p much what Kat said, but I just want to add that I often lurk as an anonymous member. Not for any particular reason, I just end up clicking that box out of habit mostly.

(I am even probably anonymous right now I am too lazy to check)

I understand that and think that's probably the universal perception of Vicats around here, I guess I am just a little baffled because you guys thought it was ~*~me*~*~ in particular trying to get you permabanned, so I don't really understand why you wouldn't just PM me personally to get my direct answer about it and make things easier for yourselves.

alright guys, there's really not much more to see here anymore, move along!

if you guys have any more questions or concerns, direct them to Vicats or Idiocon or me or whoever you feel would be best to direct them to via PM.