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Title: Mary/Matthew/Lavinia/Carlisle
Description: ...Series 2 Speculation


Ariadne - July 31, 2011 07:48 PM (GMT)
The course of true love never did run straight and this certainly seems to be the case for Mary and Matthew, assuming they are meant to be together. So for all the M/M fans out there, do you think they will end up together and in time for a Christmas special wedding? (I actually am pretty confident they will, but I could just be a delusional shipper!)

Any thoughts on Lavinia and M/L? She sounds very sweet (and looks very pretty, I think) and I'm hoping she turns out to be the anti-Mary. I'm very intrigued by the fact that it seems she'll be around Downton for a while if she and Mary develop a friendship. (And really, they become friends??)

As for Sir Richard Carlisle, I was hoping he would turn out to be a nice, likeable man, but it sounds like he's a bit sleazy. (Carson doesn't seem to like him and who am I to doubt Carson? :)) Then there's the blog post mentioning "the return of an old scandal" which perhaps is a hint of the Pamuk affair. Do you think Carlisle might be using that to blackmail Mary? Any ideas what else the press pack could be referring to when it says "the Crawleys are under the illusion they can patronise [Carlisle] but they are severely mistaken, as they learn to their cost?"

Whatever happens, looks like it'll be a bumpy ride!

bijou156 - August 1, 2011 08:22 AM (GMT)
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QUOTE
So for all the M/M fans out there, do you think they will end up together and in time for a Christmas special wedding?


I naturally believe that M/M will happen in the end because M/M have a lovely angsty reelationship and it's possible that Matthew proposed to Lavinia (spurred on by the war which accerates everything.) Here is a more detailed reasons Why M/M will happen in the end? (courtsey of silverducks and eolivet.)

ON THE OTHER HAND, in Dan's interview it says that though Matthew has moved on from Mary and is now engaged to Lavinia, Matthew still has "some feelings for her [Mary]". Dan then adds that spurred on by the war" I think they genuinely are in love, but things have happened at quite a pace and I donít get
the impression they know each other that well. Thereís just a nice bond.".
Also recent media has revealed that Lavinia is a bit hesitant of becoming Lady of the Manor.
______________________________________

Then there is Carlisle... "He is an
inordinately wealthy newspaper proprietor with the power to make or break reputations."<--- that bit there can be quite worrying because if he decides to that he "wants to exorcise it from her". "it" been Mary's unfulfilled passion for Matthew which has "never gone away". Then Richard could do some awful thing that could not only ruined Mary but her entire family too. Recent media has mentioned that "there's the return of an old scandal".
The last section in pic bio it says "The Crawleys are under the illusion they can patronise him but they are severely
mistaken, as they learn to their cost." <---I don't know but it seems something big and nasty is in store for them.

Scarlet - August 10, 2011 08:59 AM (GMT)
Oh Carlisle...look how dashingly evil you are!

If I has to hazard a guess I'd say both relationships were definitely rebound ones, however, the Matthew/Lavinia one looks like it'll be quite sweet. She seems cute and the complete opposite of Mary in terms of personality (which might be just my impression of the roles Zoe Boyle has played before) and I think she and Matthew will have a wartime romance and engagement. The quick moving relationship was rather common at the time, with young men going to their deaths and women wanting to send them off feeling loved.

So I think they'll be sweet and reasonably uncomplicated in their relationship but of course it will be scuppered in the end.

As for Carlisle, oh MAN he looks fun!

He's obviously going to woo Mary in the wake of her heartbreak over Matthew and will probably be the sort that spoils her rotten and treats her as beginning of series one!Mary would have expected. He might even appear uncomplicated as Lavinia does to begin with. But oh holy god is he going to turn by the look of things and frankly I can't wait.

I generally LOVE these sorts of characters and it'll be such fun seeing one of the interact with the terribly polite world of Downton. Who knows, maybe because he's a self-made man Cora will be the first to approve? I think there's a streak of capitalism left over from Papa Isidore in there, however, Violet did allow Rosamund to marry a banker so she might be more open to the idea than we think.

wildblue - August 10, 2011 04:26 PM (GMT)
I agree with Scarlet that Carlisle's going to be a lot of fun. We haven't really had a villain upstairs, unless you count Pamuk, so just to see how the family reacts to someone who is actively working against them (or so it sounds) will make Carlisle interesting.

The 'old scandal' will almost certainly be Pamuk - I'm not sure we really know about any other scandal involving the family unless we find out something involving maybe Robert or Cora from before season 1. That seems messy, though. Why introduce a new scandal when we've already got a perfectly good one with Pamuk?

Anyway, I hope Carlisle's not so one dimensional as, say, O'Brien or Thomas. Mary had to have fallen in love? like? admiration? with him somehow, even if he is a rebound from Matthew. It's interesting that both Mary and Matthew chose complete opposites from the other. Lavinia looks sweet and uncomplicated, which Mary is not, and Carlisle seems decidedly unscrupulous (though that might not be readily apparent to the characters), but definitely ambitious, which we don't see that much of from Matthew.

I do believe that Matthew and Mary will get together eventually, though I wouldn't be totally shocked if it isn't in this series. Maybe the wedding will be Matthew and Lavinia and something happens to her at some point that will free Matthew. I don't think we'll see Mary marry Carlisle, though.

Does it sound to anyone else reading the spoilers thus far that Matthew hadn't really been back to Downton Abbey since August 1914? I know he's been at war, but what about leave and such? Maybe it's his return (to show Lavinia the estate, or to visit his mother) that will remind Mary just how much she loves him and ends the whole thing with Carlisle, which will touch off his bad behavior?

I also can't wait to see how the Lavinia/Mary and Matthew/Carlisle interactions play out - there's potential for angst, I guess, but also for some really funny scenes, particularly if Lavinia and Mary become friends of a sort, as is implied.

bijou156 - August 10, 2011 08:15 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
When the show returns, Matthew and Lady Mary haven't seen each other for two years.
Source (link courtsey of claireire)

QUOTE
I know he's been at war, but what about leave and such? Maybe it's his return (to show Lavinia the estate, or to visit his mother) that will remind Mary just how much she loves him and ends the whole thing with Carlisle, which will touch off his bad behavior?

I think that Matthew may have chosen to avoid Mary for 2 years in order to give himself room to recover from his disappointment and heartbreak with Mary.
I think that is part of Matthew's and Mary's coping strategy is to find a love interest that are opposite from themselves.
As for Mary, she would also have the extra-pressure to marry soon because otherwise "the bloom will be off [the flower]" (paraphrasing one of Violet's quotes). So when we meet Mary in series 2, Mary would have being through 6 seasons! and yet she still not married! Thus Mary would have to conform to the best she can get (ie. Carlisle). It doesn't help either that Mary's reputation have being tarnished thanks to Edith's letter so any potential suitors won't be running after Mary.

QUOTE
I think she and Matthew will have a wartime romance and engagement. The quick moving relationship was rather common at the time, with young men going to their deaths and women wanting to send them off feeling loved.

Like Scarlet said, quicky marriage were rife during wartime, especially considering that the man may be killed in action. I think that Matthew have being very fortunate to be alive by 1916, I think that would have hightened his need to find someone who would give him the warmth and love he wants, he may feel that any moment may be his last so he would want to make the most of what he can find (ie. getting engaged to Lavinia). I doubt Matthew would want to spend his energy and efforts on working out the serious mathematical problem Mary is.

QUOTE
I also can't wait to see how the Lavinia/Mary and Matthew/Carlisle interactions play out - there's potential for angst, I guess, but also for some really funny scenes, particularly if Lavinia and Mary become friends of a sort, as is implied.

Second this. I think these characters may form the most ansgty quatangle ever. In the pack it also says that Carlisle is aware that Mary hasn't gotten over completely over Matthew and he plans to "exorcise" her from that.

Ariadne - August 11, 2011 06:21 AM (GMT)
I'll second all the remarks the Carlisle storyline looks very fun and intriguing. My one concern is that it'll be a bit overdramatic (a la the Pamuk affair). I know real life is crazy and Downton is written in part for its entertainment value, but I also want it to be believable so I really hope Fellowes struck the right balance.

QUOTE (wildblue)
The 'old scandal' will almost certainly be Pamuk - I'm not sure we really know about any other scandal involving the family unless we find out something involving maybe Robert or Cora from before season 1. That seems messy, though. Why introduce a new scandal when we've already got a perfectly good one with Pamuk?

I agree, but what I'm curious about is whether the Pamuk scandal will resurface only as an impediment for M/M (that is, Matthew somehow finds out and is upset Mary never told him) or if Carlisle will somehow get entangled. From all the hints that Carlisle is dangerous to the family, it certainly sounds like a possibility that he would threaten to expose Mary if she didn't marry him. We know he certainly has the means to do it so I'm really curious how terrible the consequences would be for Mary and the Crawleys if he were really to splash the story across the front page of his paper. I assume it would still be a big deal at the time, but given all the news from the war and the fact that the dead man was Turkish (an enemy!), would the consequences still be as terrible? I'm probably being much too modern in my outlook, but having watched the trajectory of several modern day political scandals, I think it could quickly be overshadowed by other news and forgiven if the Crawleys are known to be bravely sacrificing and serving their country.

QUOTE
I do believe that Matthew and Mary will get together eventually, though I wouldn't be totally shocked if it isn't in this series. Maybe the wedding will be Matthew and Lavinia and something happens to her at some point that will free Matthew.

I really hope that the wedding doesn't turn out to be Matthew/Lavinia because the closet romantic in me thinks it just wouldn't be the same if M/M eventually ended up together after that. (Yes, I am still blissfully assuming that even if M/L married, M/M would eventually get together.) I can't see Matthew divorcing Lavinia once they married, so Lavinia would have to die for M/M to get together and while that can easily happen with Spanish flu on the way, it would always make it seem to me that Mary was just the second choice, the fallback position.

Luckily for my nerves as we wait for S2, I can't really see M/L together for too long because they both seem incredibly nice and I think they'd have the most boring relationship ever. (Apologies to any M/L fans out there!) Since drama=viewer interest=more money for the producers, I'm hoping this means M/L will not last long. M/M, even if they were married, I could see offering us plenty of sparks and drama, so I think they have to end up together, somehow...right?

bijou156 - August 11, 2011 07:20 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ariadne @ Aug 11 2011, 06:21 AM)
it certainly sounds like a possibility that he would threaten to expose Mary if she didn't marry him. We know he certainly has the means to do it so I'm really curious how terrible the consequences would be for Mary and the Crawleys if he were really to splash the story across the front page of his paper. I assume it would still be a big deal at the time, but given all the news from the war and the fact that the dead man was Turkish (an enemy!), would the consequences still be as terrible?
I think it could quickly be overshadowed by other news and forgiven if the Crawleys are known to be bravely sacrificing and serving their country.


Maybe I'm a bit too harsh but I think if Carlisle did expose Mary on the papers (or other medium) that would mean that all of Cora's and Anna's (and later Violet's) effort to avoid the secret from been found out would be in vain. Back then people worried a lot about their reputations being clean and perfect, and that could explain why those characters are willing to help Mary (against their own strong convictions about honor and all that) out in her hour of need.
I have looked a bit into the period (and a bit further) and noticed there were famous people (like aristocrats and politicians) who have had their whole reputations and careers ruined just because of an indiscretion (small or big, its all the same).
In series 1, Mary pleads with Cora to help her out because she doesn't want to become "notorious" and "a social pariah". Cora helps Mary to save her family's reputation.
Despite the war, people would still read into 'Mary's notorious affair' because it may help them to forget (temporarily) the horrendous war they are fighting, and besides who doesn't like a good gossip? I think there may be people in the aristocratic circles, who for one reason or another may dislike or resent the Crawleys (out of jealousy/envy), thus they would stoke that golden opportunity to add insult to injury and make the whole chaos worse.
All in all, Mary's "old scandal" could totally break her and her family's reputation. I think the pack backs that point up when it says that soon Mary realizes that she is more under Carlisle's power than she thought.

mlt - August 11, 2011 03:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
We know he certainly has the means to do it so I'm really curious how terrible the consequences would be for Mary and the Crawleys if he were really to splash the story across the front page of his paper. I assume it would still be a big deal at the time, but given all the news from the war and the fact that the dead man was Turkish (an enemy!), would the consequences still be as terrible?


I am curious how the Pamuk scandal will play out as well, because as far as season 1 left off, the Pamuk scandal already WAS exposed by Edith. Maybe it wasn't written across the headlines, but it was certainly being passed around the gossip circuits and was already making life miserable for Mary. So what I'm wondering is how big a deal will it be for Carlisle to "expose" Mary when half the people around would be like "oh yeah old news."

The Turkish aspect of Pamuk's identity I don't think would be a huge deal. The Ottomans were not an enemy at the time of the scandal, and it's not as if Mary is currently taking up with one of the German's allies.

All that to say I am a bit puzzles by how the Pamuk scandal will play a part in giving Carlisle an upper hand over the family, or if the scandal in reference is even about Pamuk at all?

*secretly thinks Robert has some random love child out there who will try to usurp Matthew*

Scarlet - August 11, 2011 05:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
(Apologies to any M/L fans out there!)


I don't accept your apology dude! I am yet to see her and I already think she seems cute as a button and I shall ship them because no one else will! :) Plus I like Zoe Boyle lots and I hope her English accent isn't as tragic as McGovern's.

I really am hoping they do her some justice as a "third party" in the relationship (or "fourth" I suppose) just as I hope they do with Vera in the Anna/Bates equation. But I think my opinion of her might change once she's on the screen and is the wettest character that has ever been.

I think what we've seen so far of her though sort of implies that she might be the perfect match for Matthew in terms of temperament and personality which will be interesting to see. I kind of love her shiny hair too.

QUOTE
*secretly thinks Robert has some random love child out there who will try to usurp Matthew*


I think so dude. :o Maybe it's been Thomas all along and that's why he's so annoyed with his position!

mlt - August 11, 2011 05:19 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Maybe it's been Thomas all along and that's why he's so annoyed with his position!


Best. Plot Twist. EVER!!


Ariadne - August 17, 2011 05:18 AM (GMT)
Okay, so replies to Mei and Tripp's comments from the "Will Matthew and Mary Ever Reconcile in Series 2?" thread.

QUOTE (Mei)
In my opinion, Mary's trouble with love has and always will be the stumbling block to Matthew and Mary's relationship, not Lavinia, and not Carlisle.

I definitely agree. I think Mary has already made significant progress with the idea of love - she acknowledged that she loved Matthew and I'm not sure she could have fallen in love with him as she was at the beginning of S1 - but I think she still needs to learn to trust in someone else's love and to believe that love is more important than other considerations for marriage (which, granted, is a pretty modern perspective). I've very curious to see how she will get to this point. I guess Carlisle will prove a sharp contrast to Matthew if he can't accept her feelings for Matthew and tries to blackmail her or hurt her family if she refuses him.

QUOTE (Tripp)
I think it's very possible they will find happiness at the end of this season (or by the Christmas episode)

Tripp, I think you were the one who mentioned on LJ that it wouldn't make sense for them to keep dragging out the M/M will-they, won't-they story and I completely agree. If they continue with the usual time jumps, by the time s3 starts, it really will be a massive amount of time for the relationship to remain unresolved. I think they either have to be together by the end of S2 or they have to convincingly move onto other people/paths.

QUOTE
However, if they decide drag this out and daring to have one or both marry the WRONG person, I have to admit, it's probably going to turn me off to the show some. I'm not saying I will stop watching, but the idea of Mary with Sir Richard makes me cringe even more than what happened to Pamuk.

I had the exact same thought on my commute today! I love the other DA characters too much for me to give up on the show altogether, but I think it would take away a significant amount of my enjoyment if they continued to drag this out. That said, while I also don't think I could accept Mary with Carlisle, I might be okay if she ended up with someone else as long as they developed their relationship, but I just don't see us having time for that in S2.

QUOTE (Mei)
I think Matthew would be willing to forgive Mary almost anything, including the Pamuk scandal, as long as he felt she loved him for himself.

Awwwwwwwwwwww!

There were other things I wanted to say, but my brain has officially gone on strike. I'm not even sure my comments here are coherent anymore!

Tripp - August 17, 2011 03:40 PM (GMT)
[QUOTEI had the exact same thought on my commute today! I love the other DA characters too much for me to give up on the show altogether, but I think it would take away a significant amount of my enjoyment if they continued to drag this out. That said, while I also don't think I could accept Mary with Carlisle, I might be okay if she ended up with someone else as long as they developed their relationship, but I just don't see us having time for that in S2.[/QUOTE]

If IMDB is correct, Richard is in 3 episodes. I don't think it's that accurate because they only list Lavinia for 1 episode (the first one). Even if he were to be in all the episodes, juggling all the storylines hardly leaves time to flesh out his character. He sounds like a villain and I want him to be a villain and I would hate for the ending to have Mary marrying a bad person. I know Mary has her own share of faults and enjoys playing the selfish snob, but underneath she's a good person and hardly deserves such a fate. Plus, knowing Matthew, he's going to blame himself (probably) if he finds out Richard's intentions are less than honorable.

I don't like how the actor in the press pack, kept mentioning sex so it's led me to freak out that Mary gets yet ANOTHER sex scene with someone she doesn't love and if that were to happen, by the time she does eventually get to Matthew, she'll probably have a lot to overcome to even enjoy being with him intimately.





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