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Pages: (11) [1] 2 3 ... Last » ( Go to first unread post ) U-Sector Supporters of Toronto FC, USector, U Sector, MLS, Soccer, Football, Fansalt='U-SectorU-Sector Supporters of Toronto FC, USector, U Sector, MLS, Soccer, Football, Fans

U-Sector Supporters of Toronto FC, USector, U Sector, MLS, Soccer, Football, Fans The end of Winter?
Oldtimer
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:10 AM
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older but wiser...


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QUOTE
As I wrote in theScore piece there is a persistent rumour that Winter has been given to the end of the Montreal Voyageurs Cup tie that's four games. If things are still this bad then...



Not surprised by this rumour at all...
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HeavyD
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:16 AM
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I'm extremely tired of all the rumour and speculation personally.
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Shaughno
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:22 AM
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Captain Backheel


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Disregarding results/form....

MLSE said they would give Winter/BDK 3 full years from the get go, did they not? Now all of a sudden we're throwing in the towel on him?

Have we not seen some of the most entertaining, attack-based football since the team's inception? Have we not made it further than any other Canadian team in the CCL? Do we disregard the late season form of last year that everyone seemed to excited about going into this season?

Sure, there are things to be fixed, and areas to be improved upon, but that doesn't mean going back to a fucking clean slate. We've done that too many times as is. Stop fucking with this team MLSE, and let a fucking manager have some time to build a team. AW is slowly building a team around the system TFC was supposedly 100% behind, so much so that they built a new academy ground and implemented an entire youth system based off AW/BDK's game plan.

What happens when you fire AW? Does BDK stick around? Do we scrap the "4-3-3, from the ground up" mentality and let the youth system turn back into the typical North American academy?

It just reaks typical MLSE to me.
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Shaughno
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE (HeavyD @ Apr 26 2012, 09:16 AM)
I'm extremely tired of all the rumour and speculation personally.

This. I typed all that bullshit, and I should have waited just to agree with Brian. LOL
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HeavyD
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (Shaughno @ Apr 26 2012, 08:26 AM)
QUOTE (HeavyD @ Apr 26 2012, 09:16 AM)
I'm extremely tired of all the rumour and speculation personally.

This. I typed all that bullshit, and I should have waited just to agree with Brian. LOL

lol I was about to quote you and say 'this'. You make some excellent points and it irks me how so many fellow supporters seem to have selective memories.
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BHTC Mike
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:41 AM
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Apparently they're harsher than I am.

I suggested Winter should be evaluated after the Philly game. They're cutting that in half.

Makes sense though. Evaluate after Montreal; then evaluate again after Philly. If TFC is out of the NCC and doesn't have a win in the league can anyone seriously argue that he's doing well enough and showing progress?
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icgaff
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE (HeavyD @ Apr 26 2012, 08:31 AM)
QUOTE (Shaughno @ Apr 26 2012, 08:26 AM)
QUOTE (HeavyD @ Apr 26 2012, 09:16 AM)
I'm extremely tired of all the rumour and speculation personally.

This. I typed all that bullshit, and I should have waited just to agree with Brian. LOL

lol I was about to quote you and say 'this'. You make some excellent points and it irks me how so many fellow supporters seem to have selective memories.

Agreed. I think if they sack him, I'll seriously consider sending the rest of my fucking season ticket back in protest.
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Ultra & Proud
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:14 AM
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I like Winter and want him to work out. I believe in the 4-3-3 and what we have going. My problem is the questionable tactics and game management and his unwillingness to change things after getting burned. He seems reluctant or unable of learn from his mistakes. Whether that's pride or whatever, I don't know. Also if we open the gates 0-10 and he is still saying we are right on track and showing progress while averaging more than 2 goals against per match and scoring less than 1 for then what can you say?

I am not saying sack him but I think dropping this bit of pressure out there in the media to circulate might just give him enough of a push to bend a little and try something a bit more win friendly or at least stop that we're on the right track talk.
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Ultra & Proud
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:39 AM
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I'd also wager that most of the folks on the boards who are freaking out about sacking Winter, saying how ML$E gives up too easy on coaches, and how we are fucked up because we have the revolving door thing happening would bemoan the TFC brass in a hard, town hall, protesty sort of way if we ended the season with Winter at the helm but 'moving in the right direction' in 19th place with some abysmal win total and astronomical goals against average.
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BHTC Mike
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (Shaughno @ Apr 26 2012, 09:22 AM)
It just reaks typical MLSE to me.

With respect to their soccer operations, how?

(I don't follow the Leafs well enough to know but didn't they stick with Burke/Wilson for an extended period of time?)

Originally they made one decision: hire Mo (allegedly on advice from the league).

But for a brief run in early spring the team was terrible all year but the fans were awesome. Mo ran off Gansler and set a new record for scoring futility - we'd already launched with one! - then asked to promote himself and hire his own replacement when some people outside the organization wanted him gone. They said, "sure." (You can be our "soccer guy" one day! Good work Scottish Wayne Gretzky!")

Then the other guy had middling to poor results in the league and lost the inaugural NCC to a USL team while only winning one game from 4 against lower division opposition and Mo sold our prize asset for a huge profit in preparation for next season's "make or break" year. They didn't bat an eye. Probably helped that the other guy was popular with fans because he liked to have a go at refs and call out players he didn't like in the media and the "progress" narrative was still being bought into. Banners proclaiming "trust" were prominent so clearly nothing could be going wrong with the team, right?

Then the other guy quit and Mo was allowed to leave an "interim" in place on an expiring contract for 5/6ths(!) of a season. Said interim was seemingly never given full control but, with a better squad, did better than the other guy when facing understrength and unmotivated USL squads. Against full strength and motivated USL squads, over 5 games (3 at home), he did better too: TWO wins! (Campeones! Campeones!) Including not scoring for 180 minutes consecutively against one of those teams. And Dichio got forced out so we could overpay for a Canadian who shall not be named.

Mo got an extension. ("Keep up the good work building this solid organization Scottish Wayne! You're a good guy to go golfing with!)

Of course, sadly, the "make or break" allocation funded squad ended up shitting the bed in the most spectacular fashion in league history. But Mo had that new contract and a story to sell: "almost there, just needed a real coach see. No, no, no that team isn't aging, full of defensive midfielders being played out of position due to necessity, built on a pile of expiring allocation that'll be gone next year, and in need of a complete rebuild of its divided dressing room. We were almost there!" Fans and media wanted blood but El Tommo didn't want to look like a knob for offering the extension and the media department kept the spin: add a "real" coach and 2010 is the real "playoffs or bust."

I talk about Preki too much for a coach I didn't really love but let me just say this: fans got what they wanted and probably deserve some of what's happened since. When ticket sales are threatened even MLSE can be nudged into making a decision.

Keep in mind that was in September. So more "interims" were given carte blanche to save the season. Didn't work out of course - the team looked alternately awful and respectable in equal measure - and fans hated the idea of "cheaping out on a bunch of Canucks" so TWO MONTHS later they figured, "hey, maybe someone with an accent can be our guru again. Fans loved that the first few times." It was a great decision from a marketing perspective and calmed down the fan revolt with a great new story to sell.

TWO MONTHS after that in January we were gifted a new, slightly more exotic, accent to turn us into Ajax Toronto. A heroically bad start was completely ignored as a learning curve and eventually new accent got the team on a roll in two cups. League record turnover - admittedly, nothing they worried about under Mo either - was bolstered by a couple huge signings and the team was looking like it might be mid-table competitive by the end of the season. It was rougher than necessary maybe but all an acceptable part of implementing "the plan."

And here we are now.

Unlikely CCL success story mixed with historically bad - yes, historically; no MLS team has started this bad since they ditched shoot outs and added draws AFAIK - 0-0-6 start to the year.

Show me any point in that story where MLSE proactively made a decision. Where they weren't either delegating responsibility to someone else and extending the rope or being dragged kicking and screaming into doing something. Beyond the Anglo/Europhilia the biggest problem with this club since mid-2007 has been the inability or unwillingness to recognize what is happening on the field and actually have the guts to MAKE A DECISION about leadership. As a result we lurch on and on in purgatory far too long until fan anger makes the status quo untenable and they have to be seen to do something. Ironically, trying to project an image of stability is precisely what ends up CREATING instability.

When something isn't working the right thing to do is cut your sunk costs and MAKE A DECISION. It's what Vancouver did last year and is working out for them now. Same with Chicago. Same with Colorado in the past and NY before that. Simply waiting and deferring responsibility isn't the sign of a level head. It's an abdication of responsibility and THAT'S what should be criticized about MLSE.*

*And ticket prices.

(This should have been a blog. Damn, I actually had some numbers I wanted to post in another thread and now that'll have to wait!)
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gator
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE (Shaughno @ Apr 26 2012, 08:22 AM)
Disregarding results/form....

MLSE said they would give Winter/BDK 3 full years from the get go, did they not? Now all of a sudden we're throwing in the towel on him?

Have we not seen some of the most entertaining, attack-based football since the team's inception? Have we not made it further than any other Canadian team in the CCL? Do we disregard the late season form of last year that everyone seemed to excited about going into this season?

Sure, there are things to be fixed, and areas to be improved upon, but that doesn't mean going back to a fucking clean slate. We've done that too many times as is. Stop fucking with this team MLSE, and let a fucking manager have some time to build a team. AW is slowly building a team around the system TFC was supposedly 100% behind, so much so that they built a new academy ground and implemented an entire youth system based off AW/BDK's game plan.

What happens when you fire AW? Does BDK stick around? Do we scrap the "4-3-3, from the ground up" mentality and let the youth system turn back into the typical North American academy?

It just reaks typical MLSE to me.

That's how I feel as well! Yes I have questioned his tactics at times and I believe he has made some mistakes but getting rid of him part way through the season would set us back substantially! There is not a manager out there to come in and turn this around quickly, we would go back to another 2 or 3 year plan and a rebuild! I've said it on other threads, MLSE scares me with the way they run their sports franchises, I don't trust them to make the right decisions!
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gator
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (BHTC Mike @ Apr 26 2012, 09:40 AM)

Show me any point in that story where MLSE proactively made a decision. Where they weren't either delegating responsibility to someone else and extending the rope or being dragged kicking and screaming into doing something. Beyond the Anglo/Europhilia the biggest problem with this club since mid-2007 has been the inability or unwillingness to recognize what is happening on the field and actually have the guts to MAKE A DECISION about leadership. As a result we lurch on and on in purgatory far too long until fan anger makes the status quo untenable and they have to be seen to do something. Ironically, trying to project an image of stability is precisely what ends up CREATING instability.



(This should have been a blog. Damn, I actually had some numbers I wanted to post in another thread and now that'll have to wait!)

Well isn't that the problem, there is not anyone at MLSE capable of making a football decision? I mentioned that bringing in a consulting company (Klinsmann) took some balls from PB and TA to admit they do not have the football background to make the hire but dbailey pointed out that several candidates were presented by Klinsmann's firm and in the end PB and TA made the choice! I still haven't given up on Winter and much of that has to do with the sordid history you have reminded us of Mike!
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Ultra & Proud
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:33 AM
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Dog's Bollocks


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QUOTE (gator @ Apr 26 2012, 09:41 AM)
That's how I feel as well! Yes I have questioned his tactics at times and I believe he has made some mistakes but getting rid of him part way through the season would set us back substantially! There is not a manager out there to come in and turn this around quickly, we would go back to another 2 or 3 year plan and a rebuild! I've said it on other threads, MLSE scares me with the way they run their sports franchises, I don't trust them to make the right decisions!

I say that if we got Steve Nichol in for instance, by the All Star game we'd be nipping at the 8th playoff spot. Forget about 3 year plans. Those are terms that teams who expect to lose toss out to deflect heat.

Having said that I can't say won't be near the 8th spot with Winter either. We aren't as bad as we look and are better than 0-6 for sure. A few of those 6 games were winnable if we would have tightened up and been able to finish. Maybe starting this week we go on a 6 game roll, who knows?

All I know is that when the sum of the parts (on paper) point to us having the best team in our existence but in actuality we are showing as the worst, then I think the manager and staff have to take the heat to some extent. Which they have not done yet.

This post has been edited by Ultra & Proud on Apr 26 2012, 10:39 AM
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FR12
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 11:35 AM
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Has a little faith


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QUOTE (Shaughno @ Apr 26 2012, 09:22 AM)
Disregarding results/form....

MLSE said they would give Winter/BDK 3 full years from the get go, did they not?  Now all of a sudden we're throwing in the towel on him? 

Have we not seen some of the most entertaining, attack-based football since the team's inception?  Have we not made it further than any other Canadian team in the CCL?  Do we disregard the late season form of last year that everyone seemed to excited about going into this season?

Sure, there are things to be fixed, and areas to be improved upon, but that doesn't mean going back to a fucking clean slate.  We've done that too many times as is.  Stop fucking with this team MLSE, and let a fucking manager have some time to build a team.  AW is slowly building a team around the system TFC was supposedly 100% behind, so much so that they built a new academy ground and implemented an entire youth system based off AW/BDK's game plan.

What happens when you fire AW?  Does BDK stick around?  Do we scrap the "4-3-3, from the ground up" mentality and let the youth system turn back into the typical North American academy?

It just reaks typical MLSE to me.

too much sense man...

e: i'll seriously consider not renewing my seasons if they do not stick to the plan. its not like there wont be tickets a plenty next season if they dont and we start from scratch......again...

This post has been edited by FR12 on Apr 26 2012, 11:37 AM
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busanbhoy
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 11:52 AM
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Quadrofinnian


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i dunno mutch, but in regards to the topic title, at the rate George works, the end of Winter is probably a good six years off*


*unless HBO light the proverbial fire by catching up!



:ph43r: :lol:
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