Alpharius?, Was he found before...

Hey guys the upcoming audio drama that was announced a few days ago made me wonder, was Alpharius found before or after the lost legions became lost? I know that he was found later than the rest of the primarchs. Thanks, Mike

if i'm thinking this is right then Alpharius was the last primarch to be found. if this is so then the lost legions were already lost seen as in Deliverance Lost there's a wonderfully heartwarming moment where Corax and the Emperor meet (awww). at this meeting the two missing primarchs are mentioned and the Emperor says something about it being a conversation for another day... so yeah afterwards...

so even when corax was found the lost legions where lost?

Thanks Carralak, great help

From what I've read, all 20 primarchs were found and knew each other, albeit only for a short time.

Corax couldn't understand why he was number 19, when there were only 18 brothers.
Alpharius was the last to be found (by Horus), but didn't spend much time with his brothers before joining the crusade; which is why there is trust issues between his legion and the others as they didn't get the chance to know him.
Some of the latter primarchs may have only met the missing primarchs once, so don't have a brotherly bond or maybe II & XI were found later than we first thought and know one really got to know them.

That's very interesting - I asked Gav and Graham a very similar question at the last HH meeting.

Corax is the nineteenth primarch, but he was only the eighteenth to be discovered.

We know that the twentieth to be discovered was Alpharius, and he was only returned to his Legion about 20 years before the end of the Crusade.

Therefore, there was ONE other primarch discovered between Corax and Alpharius.

We couldn't find any evidence as to who that might be. I'd welcome anything you guys can turn up.

Hmm... can we assume that it would be a loyalist primarch, as the bulk of his legion would be Terrans and his influences would not drive them to treason, as they would if he had been in command for 100+ years and the majority of his men weren't Terrans, Ferrus Manus perhaps?

Contradicting the above point; what about Night Haunter? His legion didn't embrace chaos etc. at the beginning. Despite being vicious killers, they were loyal; they just became disheartened with the way the Imperium worked and Nostramo only descended into anarchy after NH left - and we all know what he did in the end. Not for killings sake, but a punishment!!
Now if NH had been around for longer than 50+ years would these issues not have appeared sooner?

I always imagine the Night Lords and Iron Hands to be small in size, so they do fit with being newly established - unless of course they're from a highly populated system (Ultra).

i'm not sure whether the other 2 brothers that the Emperor mentions means that they just hadn't been found when the Emperor arrived at Deliverance. i mean, when Corax asks about the two missing, the Emperor looks "bleak" and sorrowful, and said that it was a conversation for another day. which yeah could mean he just hadn't found them. but then a short way further into the conversation, he mentions that he has found most of the primarchs, so why doesn't he just tell Corax that the other two brothers haven't been found yet?

i'm gonna have to read through the whole HH series now just to double check everything i know about the missing primarchs

We got that, but then we know that Alpharius was the last so it would make sense that two just hadn't been found. He implies that they're both in the same situation, so it makes sense in that respect etc.

Maybe "I haven't found them yet" makes him seem fallible?

well it was my understand from the Lightning Tower and Dark King that they had been found.


I mean in The First Heretic, they suggest when deciding Lorgar's fate with his legion if they are to be expunged or not they make reference I think that it has happened before? Plus in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns they make few references such as.

It says that brother has fought brother even BEFORE the heresy. So this tells me the space wolves might have took out at least 1 of the legions?

The Lightning Tower says that both episodes were separate tragedies and could have been warnings, so make of that what you will.
I would say that one legion must have been involved in fighting with one of the remaining legions; either in open rebellion or (like the Thousand Sons) in an attempt to survive the Emperor’s wrath.

I doubt that either of them dabbled in chaos as the Emperor would have been more alert to any of the other legions doing the same.
Mutation is probably a 'no' too, as the Thousand Sons were afflicted by this.

It would be interesting in the later novels to hear what some of the lesser primarchs have to say about the missing two; to gauge when they're were expunged.

My own take is that one primarch turned from the Emperor after seeing what the Imperium was becoming (genocide of millions for being different etc.) and the other primarch was killed by his own legion (with other loyalist legions wiping them out).

Anyway, who does Guilliman kill, Alpharius or Omegon?

i reckon that Alpharius kills Omegon at some point during the heresy. recently they seem to have been drifting apart somewhat.

and on a side note, it's entirely possible that the lost legions weren't destroyed. the Word Bearers certainly seem to think that the astartes from the legions were drafted into the Ultramarines... and who is the Battle King?!

What do we know so far...

Horus - discovered first - considerably before the others.

Fulgrim - crusaded with Horus for some time.
Guilliman - long record of achievements during the GC.
Ferrus - good friends with Fulgrim, so unlikely to be discovered 2nd last.
Magnus - had enough time to 'solve' his Legion's problems, and build up a bad reputation.
Perturabo - long-running feud with Dorn, but may have been discovered after Dorn, starting his feelings of paranoia and inadequacy?
Dorn - chosen as the Emperor's Praetorian, so probably known for some time.
Sanguinius - good friends with Horus, so unlikely to have been discovered late.
Mortarion - the anvil in many of Horus' battle plans, so probably fighting together for some time.

2nd and 11th Primarchs - discovered early enough that they had already been dealt with and expunged before the end of the GC, in two separate incidents.
Russ - likely involved in the above events for at least one of the Lost Primarchs.

The Lion - long list of achievements, but how many of them were with the Lion present? With his reputation for tactical accumen, I doubt he's second last to be discovered though.

Incidentally, since the Dark Angels were the 1st Legion, wouldn't they have spent a long time fighting under the command of the Emperor and then Horus? We know many Legions were only founded shortly before their Primarch was found, but the DA were certainly around for quite some time before the Lion. Of the original Terran DA, some would have loyalty to the Emperor (pre-Horus discovery) and some to Horus (pre-Lion), so their loyalties are even more confused than I thought!

Ok, that leaves:
Vulkan, Kurze, Angron, Lorgar and The Khan.

I've not seen any mention of the Primarchs' relative ages, so presumably the warp did not scatter them in time, only in space, and they're all the same age?

Given Kurze's bitterness, I suspect he was on Nostramo for a long time, so he may have been discovered relatively late?

Vulkan had a small Legion, partly because of his homeworld, but also maybe because of late discovery?

Lorgar had enough time to participate in the GC really slowly, get censured, and then build up a long list of achievements and a huge Legion.

The Khan - currently little is known.

Angron - the Emperor just teleported him away from his homeworld, so was the Emperor being impatient? ...because the GC was well underway?

Incidentally, what happened to Angron's homeworld? Currently nothing is known about the aftermath, so was it destroyed by the Imperium (for imprisoning a Primarch) or did Angron return later for vengeance?

Corax - discovered 18th.

19th - ???

Alpharius - discovered 20th.

Based on what we know, I think Kurze, The Khan, Angron or Vulkan seem the likeliest Primarchs to be discovered 2nd last.

well apparently The Khan was only on his homeworld for 20 years before the emperor arrived so that could be fairly late on depending on how soon the other primarchs were found...

On second thoughts, regarding Kurze - the Night Lords had enough time to have their ranks filled with all the evil scum of Nostramo (gone bad after Kurze's departure). Accounting for attrition rates, they would have had to be fighting in the GC for quite some time to turn-over most of the Legion.


Regarding the transgressions of the Lost Primarchs (and bearing in mind the 'separate tragedies' and 'should have been seen as warnings' references):

Sorcery - I agree this is unlikely, or the Emperor would have been more vigilant, and Magnus more careful.

Mutation - unlikely, or Magnus' fix for his Legion would have raised more questions (if a Legion had already succumbed completely).

Cellular degradation - this is an interesting possibility. We know the Emperor's work was not perfect (there are plenty of Legions with problems) so maybe one of the Lost Legions drew the really short straw and suffered irreversible problems? (Gene-seed failure?). The Emperor would certainly not want people talking about how he had messed up so badly.

Alliance with Xenos - did a Lost Primarch ally with (or was raised by) a Xenos race? This would certainly be against the doctrines of the Imperium. We know the Lost Primarchs were part of the Imperium long enough to meet (most of or all?) of their brothers, and to get statues on Terra, so refusal to join the Imperium is not an issue. However, if a Lost Primarch rebelled against commands...? If he had been discovered by the Emperor at a point where the Imperium would not have come into contact with his Xenos allies, then he could have joined the Imperium and then started saying how great his alien friends were. The Emperor would have sanctioned him, then later the Imperium comes into contact with the Xenos and attacks them. Either the Lost Primarch is ordered to attack and refuses, or tries to stop another Legion from attacking the Xenos (although this would break the no marine-vs-marine fighting prior to the Heresy, unless it was just the Wolves). He might even try to stop his own Legion from attacking (see below). Or perhaps the Primarch assists the Xenos in escaping, and then makes a run for it. He is hunted down and his Legion is viewed as untrustworthy.

Mutiny - for some reason, the Primarch and his Legion disagree. Either the Primarch is killed by his own marines and the Legion is then taken out by the Wolves, or the Primarch slaughters his own marines for some reason (this scenario seems unlikely, given the shock felt by the loyalists at the Istvaan III betrayal).

Pacifism - I like Markus Krell's idea that a Lost Primarch refuses to accept the Imperial doctrines. Having being raised by hippie-peaceniks, the Primarch instructs his Legion in pacifism (and tie-died robes!). His once-honoured Legion becomes completely ineffective.

Druggies - the Primarch and his Legion are hooked on a potent intoxicant and are too unpredictable!

Alien enslavement - if a Primarch (and Legion?) were attacked by Enslavers (or Genestealers?!) then he/they would have to be eliminated. They would not be seen as fellow marines at that point, so would not engender the same feelings of marine-fighting-marine.

Last stand - the Primarch and (most or all of?) his Legion take on impossible odds and are wiped out. Either the Primarch is a poor tactician, or too stubborn to make a tactical retreat, or is somehow overwhelmed. The Emperor expunges their record to hide their failure and maintain the illusion of the infallibility of the Legions.

Of course, a combination of various of these ideas is possible.

I still think that the 'rumours' in The First Heretic are not impossible. Hiding the remnants of a Lost Legion in the Ultramarines (already a large Legion where no-one can know everyone) is not a bad idea. I've mentioned before the idea that Guilliman may have written the Codex Astartes for more than just Imperium Secundus - he may have already been writing a field guide to warfare, to try and integrate the Lost remnants into his own troops more effectively.

in regards to cellular degradation, i don't think it would be likely as it's hinted at in the Night Lords books by ADB that Kurze may have suffered from problems due to gene seed rejection himself and these problems were mirrored in Talos.
also, you've got to think that whatever happened to the lost legions was worthy of them being stricken from all records and even the other primarchs are pretty forbidden from talking about them. i doubt things such as cellular degradation and pacifism would cause the Emperor to eliminate them from history.
also whatever happened must, in a sense, be worse than being declared traitors and heretics like the legions that turned during the heresy, because at least they are remembered, even if it is more in legends and myths.

Interesting write-up Ilmarinen, I enjoyed reading it. I think as you say that there is enough evidence that both missing Primarchs were found, and united with their respective legions.

It's interesting that I think when the 'lost legions' were first mentioned, in the 2nd edition codex Imperialis book (I believe that was the first time?), and there was an attempt to make the Astartes appear more Roman Legionary-esque in nature, I believe the implication (although never explicitly mentioned) was obvious; that the Legion had been destroyed by external forces. This was a direct reference to the Roman Empire, when two of their legions were destroyed (or 'disappeared') by the barbarians in Germania. Better the public think their armies are unbeatable.

This is also supported to an extent by the events in Horus Rising, where we learn that the Emperor's Children suffered some 'calamity' early on, were very nearly destroyed, and had to fight alongside the Luna Wolves for some time after. Obviously the legions would have taken some time to grow, and you can make a very long list of the potential things that could have destroyed them; be it aliens, some hyper-technology human descendants, even a warp mishap.

So, with that in mind I've always thought that the 'destroyed legion' perhaps could have applied to one of them.
For the other, there are loads and loads of little pointers, from different authors and throughout the series, about what might have happened. We have used the phrase 'ultimate sanction' being used describing them, and it was something so bad that the surviving brothers are forbidden from speaking of it. Dan Abnett practically re-invented the Space Wolves as 'the rout', a force that had the potential to bring down other Astartes - both in Prospero Burns, and his comments about the book. There is a lot of implication I think that 'Space Wolves' is what happened to at least one of the lost legions..

Whatever befell the legions happened in the last third of the GC; maybe the Emperor's Children and one of the lost were attacked and virtually wiped out during a campaign - which could explain why a lot of the ECs were dealt a ‘calamitous blow’. The Emperor blamed lost primarch and as there were not enough survivors expunged the legion. He may have executed the primarch, imprisoned him or the primarch was slain in battle?

Regarding the Space Wolves, I’m not 100% convinced that they took on a whole legion by themselves. Half a legion, possibly, so the whole ‘legion civil war’ must have happened – but which one?!!!
Maybe they fought with a second legion, World Eaters or Night Lords; they seem to be cut from the same cloth?

There is also mention, maybe by Dorn (but I can’t remember where) that Malcador had access to some form of armed force. Could this be imprisoned astartes from one or both of the lost legions? Malcador immediately dismissed it; but at the end of the HH out the two of them, who is alive to decide what to do with them?

I would like to postulate the idea that the Emperor found the two "other" Primarchs but they were terribly mutated and as a result had to be destroyed. The legions they were destined to lead had been enhanced/created from their DNA, and even though the Emperor knew that the two had been tainted by the Warp after being snatched from Terra, he couldn't impart this to anyone but the Sigillite so they too had to be destroyed, probably at the insistence of Russ who would have been happy to carry out the sentence.

One legion was exterminated wholesale by Russ and his crowd, but the Emperor changed his mind about the other (knowing they weren't tainted and seeing the wastage as unnecessary) and after mindwiping them had them distributed amongst the other legions present. This I reckon may explain why some of the legions whose Primarchs were found earlier were larger than others.

Just an idea mind you, based on my interpretation of what I've read so far. Given how vague GW are being with all of the fluff, I think we're doing a good job of sifting the crap from the gold, and we're doing it without falling out. That is quite unusual for a GW subject, but it goes to show the determination of fans such as we. Great stuff everyone. My faith in GW fans is upheld!

I like the mind-wipe part; I never considered that as a possibility for the survivors.

Does anyone else think that Shroud is sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat while looking at his PC monitor and chuckling to himself at all of our suggestions?!!

Maybe one of the lost primarchs wanted to be part of a rock band or go travelling around the galaxy to find himself?! The big E wasn't keen on that, so bye-bye legion!!

Mind if I use some of this for my own legion?