The Primarchs (book), Thoughts?

I can't find the thread so I guess I'm late and the search function won't work for me, but, did you do a thread on this book? I just want to see if everyone else was bored to tears by this book. if I'm honest, I just can't find the strength to finish it. This has to be the worst one since Battle For The Abyss?

This post has been edited by ShroudFilm on Aug 12 2012, 03:50 PM

It's a New York Times Bestseller, so I think you're in the minority...

If you can, take a look at the last story - 'The Serpent Beneath' by Rob Sanders. It's one of my favourite HH stories ever, and that's saying something!

I have to be honest, I had been sticking to the old adage of "If you haven't got anything nice to say... "

I agree it is probably the book I have enjoyed least in the Heresy series so far, and by some margin. Possibly because 'The Reflection Crack'd' put me in a belligerent frame of mind for the rest of the stories in the book - to be brutally honest, I can't reconcile myself to the fact that the same author had previously written books of the quality of Mechanicum and A Thousand Sons, and can only assume that a doppleganger replaced Mr McNeil when writing that story in a nefarious attempt to sully his good name..

EDIT - Shroud, selling figures aren't necessarily an indication of the quality of something, as you well know. Look at the music billboards, or film and book charts, and a good percentage of it will have been generally derided by critics as being pap.

This post has been edited by Pacific on Jul 29 2012, 12:18 AM

Goto in the Abyss

Heh, when did this book come out?

- Because I still haven't finished it.

The one true test of whether I like a novel or not is if I can't put it down and finish it in two days, tops, and this one, yeesshhh, it's been months.

I'm about to start The Serpent Beneath so will reserve final judgement til then but, yeah....underwhelming I suppose.

Not complaining mind, the more the give us, the harder it is to sustain the quality.

yeeeah...I too started it quite a while ago and have now left it half way through The Serpent beneath and been reading other things instead.

Personally liked the Reflection Crack'd although I'm still umming and arring about whether I like the twist of the tail.

Overall disappointing book which told a few tales that didn't need telling, the Iron Hands one especially...

The Iron Hands story went nowhere but the rest of the book was awesome, especially Serpent beneath...

1st post, so be gentle

Personally I really enjoyed the Primarchs ( as i have enjoyed the whole HH series ), each novella adds another layer to the whole, wether the big reveals of the Lion or Serpent Beneath or the fleshing out of Ferrus Manus's character or the Fulgrim "is he isn't he question " ( not sure about actually posting the nitty gritty so am being as vague as i can !).

I hope that BL continue with " the Primarchs" novella concept to cover all of them.

I liked most of the tales to some degree.
I really enjoyed "The Lion" & "The Serpent Beneath"

The one thing that jumped out at me from the Iron Hands story, is that they seem to be the exact opposite of the Salamanders... in regards to compassion towards normal humans, which I thought was interesting.

As for Fulgrim, I have now officially gone past feeling sorry for him.
Which is a shame really, as Graham McNeil did a great job of evoking a mix of disgust & hatred of him, which then for me turned to pity at the end of the book.

Yes I think 'The Serpent Beneath' was the best story of the book, even if it did perhaps go a little like 'The Departed' at the end with the number of twists.

++SPOILERS++

Don't continue to read if you haven't yet read the Primarchs..

OK.. that Lion El'Johnson highway-stop toilet scene..

GOT YOU... now please stop reading..

Regarding 'The Reflection Crack'd', I think that is probably a good point regarding the Fulgrim book. In the full length Novel, I thought that McNeil really had the whole 'grim dark' thing nailed with the conclusion of that book, and it was an absolutely spectacular climax to the story. Fulgrim looked about himself during the final battle, finally realised what he had done to his Legion, realised the depth and scale of the mistake he had made, and in a moment of utter humility and acknowledgement of that failure just let go of everything. It was as painful to read, but I thought wonderfully written.

I think that is why the Novella disappointed me so much - it managed to undo all of the emotional impact of that book, the actual foundation of the story arc itself, and replaced it with something crass and uninspired. Perhaps most importantly, it removed that 'human' emotional element from the original story. Despite Fulgrim being something of an arrogant ass, causing untold pain and suffering, I think most readers could identify with what happened to him at the end of 'Fulgrim'. Why he did the things he did, and I thought it tied in nicely with the original concept of the Primarchs; That despite their absolute physical mastery, inside they were all too human, and vulnerable to the vices and negative emotions that can afflict the common man. 'The Reflection Crack'd' replaced that element of character that the reader could relate to with something far more two-dimensional, and immediately disconnected the relationship to the reader.

As well as that the action sequences were completely OTT, just missing giant 'WAZAAM' and 'KAPOW' luminous cut-outs stuck to the page to complete the transformation to comic book - they completely missed the kind of gritty realism that other stories in the sequence have managed when describing action sequences.

Some of the character's were also inconsistent with what we have seen before; Eidalon's in particular was completely out of whack, and nothing at all like the snivelling sycophant we saw in other stories - I can only assume that it was something done deliberately, as it was such an obvious change in character? In any case, a disappointing departure for that character, as he was a great 'baddie' in Fulgrim, and a character that the reader despised by the end of the book. When you have such a good antagonist, I don't think he should be wasted by being killed off in such a throwaway manner half way through the story, and it made me think of what Lord of the Rings would have been like if Grima Wormtongue had fallen dead off of his horse a chapter into the second book.

I realise this may have sounded overly critical, but I care enough about the book series (and am enough of a nerd that I get worked up about such things - meanwhile athletes take part in the Olympics, and a hundred people are killed by bombs in Baghdad) to hope that sometimes less can be better, and I hope future releases can be cherry picked a little more rather than just throwing everything out there. The Primarchs almost came across to me as something like the literary equivalent of a collection of B-sides, and with the 'Reflection Crack'd' in particular, it's almost a bit of a 'greedo shot first' moment for me - where I would rather the story didn't exist as it has ruined the earlier, and much better, Fulgrim for me!
Perhaps part of the problem is that while Dan Abnett, and in particular ADB (I came to this book having previously read the end of the Night Lord series) have set the bar so high that when other books don't reach that scale of writing, in terms of the scale of their characterisation and emotional investment they draw from the reader, then invariably disappointment must follow.

But, the end result is that now that will be the last time I just pick up a HH-series book without reading a couple of reviews on them first, whereas before I would have just picked up the book without thinking about it. Anyway, like I said not trying to be overly critical, but just give a bit of constructive feedback about where I thought one story in particular in the book went wrong. And, I appreciate that it's only a personal thing, and not everyone will agree with me.

This post has been edited by Pacific on Jul 29 2012, 02:22 PM

Whilst I certainly enjoyed Serpent Beneath, I am a little concerned -

++SPOILER++





there's a strong hint at a growing divide between Alpharius and Omegon that I'm not comfortable with, as well as potentially loyalist/traitor siding within the chapter. Do not like!

Oh, and what was the 'other suit of armour'?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to destroy your secret psychic base...

All I will say is that out of all of the discussion I've seen online and in the GW/HH fandom, no one has guessed what is actually going on with the Alpha Legion.

The "facts" of it have been around since 'Legion', and it was all laid down a while ago so more and more could be alluded to as time goes on.

Sit back, and enjoy the h***f**k.

*SPOILERS*

I agree with you Pacific about the Fulgrim story. The Emperor's children were my first pre-heresy love (always hated Slaneesh so I hate what they become). That part at the end of Fulgrim where, as you describe, he looks around to see what he has done, how far hes gone, and then finally to be trapped inside his own mind by the daemon was really heartbreaking for me, almost as much so as to what happened to the Thousand Sons.
So when in this story you find out that all along Fulgrim has actually been in control the whole time I was really disappointed, as it ruined the idea of the real Fulgrim still trying to break free and a prisoner in his own mind. While I was happy to see Eidolon die, I agree it was a bit of a quick and surprising way to see him go.

Also the Gorgon's story was a fairly boring one. But I am not much of a fan of Iron Hands so that may have had something to do with it as well.

The Alpha legion had the best story I would say, and the future novels for them I think will really be fun, and as shroud says, massive headfu**ers.

Shroud, id like to say as a very public Alpha Legion fan I freaking love their arc so far, cookies for all!

nice to see that the dark angles arnt the only legion that ended up on both sides of the heresy

is that extra suit of armour a lovely shade of gold with a very long name inscribed on it?????????

the lion just gave me more reason not to trust the first legion perhaps luther new what was going on and tried to save them and the unforgiven are the part of the legion with the lion not the otherway round or perhaps they are alpharius

as for the gorgon loved it as it fills that small gap in promethean sun where was he what was he doing

Did anyone else feel like the Relfection Crack'd was almost a complete retconn about the ending of Fulgrim? It felt to me like Graham decided he had made the Emperor's Children a little bit too grimdark, and so wrote that short story just so he could make everything "alright" for Fulgrim. For me, it felt like that entire short story had been written purely to change what he had established as fluff.

As for the other stories, I liked them. They all in one way or another showed a different, darker side of the primarchs. Though people may or may not actually like what was established, it fleshed out the primarchs into real characters, with their own internal conflicts.

As for Omegon, he obviously is one of the lost legion's primarchs.

I've just finished reading 'Angel Exterminatus'... I wouldn't worry about the EC being too nice!

A whole lot of them really are Alpharuis

If anything then Reflection Crack'd made the EC more GrimDark.

Before they were following the whims of a Slaneeshii daemon and dancing blindly to its tune. Now Fulgrim was shown this path by said daemon, before fighting back, regaining control and then still deciding to follow the decrepit path. Everything disgusting he's doing is because he's really fallen as opposed to being trapped.

Personally I preferred him being trapped in his mind, having to watch as his own body and god-like powers are used to defile what he once loved, but this root definitely means that Fulgrim is despicable all on his own.

For me, it makes Fulgrim much more of a bad*ss!

I love the fact that the daemon thought it had beaten him and would torment him for eternity, but Fulgrim turns out to be much more powerful than it realises. Hehehe.

The Lion and Night Haunter fought each other to a standstill. Corax almost killed Lorgar, but only because Lorgar was seeking his own death, before he became his true bad*ss self. Therefore, so far, Fulgrim is the only Primarch to have killed another Primarch, and he killed Manus one-on-one. Fulgrim had already stoved Ferrus's head in with his hammer and defeated him - the daemon only encouraged the killing blow because Fulgrim had a final moment of hesitation - if he hadn't hesitated, he'd have finished Ferrus all on his own, with no warp enhancement. That's pretty epic!

I like the way Fulgrim manipulates his Legion in Reflection Crack'd! He really is choosing his own (perverted) destiny, having fun along the way, and I think he's going to become a lot more powerful than we initially expected. Can't wait to see how he behaves towards the other traitor Primarchs from now on (particularly Horus!) and the showdown between Fulgrim and Guilliman is now going to be much more dramatic (particularly as I like Guilliman a lot more since Know No Fear).