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 Legions II and XI
Apologist
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 02:14 PM


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Just an idle thought (I like the mystery of the two missing Legions), but the Emperor threatened Magnus so:

QUOTE (The Big Shiney)
If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction on you.  And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time."


Now, given that the two missing Legions have been deleted from the Imperial records, perhaps this was due to them defying the Emperor's will, and a direct order from the Emperor was required to strike the names.

This would explain why the Traitor legions have not been struck from records the Emperor wasn't in a position to be speaking after the fight with Horus.
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Whitehorn
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 02:42 PM


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This also hit an alarm with me.

Poor Magnus, to be honest. Trying to be helpful, but old papa Emperor was too paranoid about the chaos gods tainting his children.

I always imagined they were simply never recovered, but we saw Horus cracked one of the chambers.. could have doomed him.
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Mabrothrax
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:01 PM


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QUOTE (Whitehorn @ Sep 16 2008, 03:42 PM)
I always imagined they were simply never recovered, but we saw Horus cracked one of the chambers.. could have doomed him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Lightning Tower Rogal Dorn views the statues of the Primarchs and muses on the empty plinths where the statues of II and IX were removed.

Or something like that. Anyway, the implication is, as I understand things, that II & IX were recovered and subsequently 'deleted'.

Had they not been, or had there not been second and eleventh legions, surely the numbering system for the known legions would be different.
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The Red Sorcerer
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:13 PM


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The missing Primarch's were definitely recovered - there are several quotes from a number of sources that say they were recovered and put in charge of their Legions, for example here:
QUOTE
During the Great Crusade, the Emperor encountered the Primarchs in turn, each having risen to a position of authority within the cultures they had been deposited in, due to their superhuman skills and physiques.... Twenty Space Marine Legions were formed, each led by one of the Primarchs, and his genetic data was passed on to his warriors.

In addition, The Lightning Tower makes it clear that they were recovered and that it was later that their 'tragedies' occured - there were statues made of each of the Primarchs, and Dorn at least knows something of what happened to them (or thinks he knows):
QUOTE
Dorn's aimless wanderings had taken him to the Investiary. In that broad space, an amphitheatre open to the night sky, statues of the twenty stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring... The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

At this point the Traitor Primarch's statues are covered rather than having been removed, despite the fact the Emperor is still alive and could have ordered them destroyed.
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Maratheus
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:13 PM


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So the two lost legions most propably rebelled against the Emperor on Terra? I mean they didn't necessarily even see their Primarchs, correct?
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Whitehorn
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:17 PM


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QUOTE (The Red Sorcerer @ Sep 16 2008, 03:13 PM)
At this point the Traitor Primarch's statues are covered rather than having been removed, despite the fact the Emperor is still alive and could have ordered them destroyed.

I find this a bit daft.

Had the Emperor pulled his finger out of his almighty bumhole, a lot of things could have been different.

I doubt he'd take a time out to knock down a few statues over personally knocking down a few naughty Primarchs.
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The Red Sorcerer
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:33 PM


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Daft? I mention it because it means that the Emperor may have felt the traitor Primarch's joining with Horus was a less serous infraction than whatever it was the missing two did. Judging by The Lightning Tower, the 'Big E' finds the idea of destroying the statues somewhat unneccessary at this stage (prior to the Siege of Terra):
QUOTE
Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh. For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded.

So for whatever reason, the traitor's statues have been left intact, whereas the 'missing' Primarch's statues have been removed. Of course, it may be nothing more than the fact that the Imperium had other things on its mind at this stage. But I still figured it was worth mentioning...
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ShroudFilm
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 03:53 PM


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I think given the clues that we have had so far, the things we can safely assume are -

1) The two missing legions fell separately, not in the same incident.
2) As far as the Emperor is concerned, they are gone for good.
3) Their Primarchs were found and took part in the Great Crusade before falling.
4) In some way, they both defied the Emperor enough that they had to be destroyed.

When I read the Lightning Tower, I assumed that the loyalists were still unsure as to what Horus' motives/argument might be, or that there might be a big misunderstanding... so they left the statues covered to show that they were 'decision pending'.
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Whitehorn
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 04:00 PM


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Yet despite his threat to Magnus, his statue remained?
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ShroudFilm
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 04:17 PM


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Where is this quote taken from? I presumed it was the Council of Nikaea... in which case, yes a good threat might have made more of an impact, and hopefully stop him from doing it again.

Think of a parent disciplining a child. They play with matches, you ground them... you don't disown/kill them! biggrin.gif
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Pacific
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 04:52 PM


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I have issue with your point 4, Shroud.

So much of the background surrounding the Imperium is based on Roman practices. I believe there was one incident in history of an entire legion being destroyed by barbarian tribes in Germania. Rather than admit the fallibility of the Roman Empire, any record of the legions existence was destroyed, and were erased from records. Perhaps this is another example of the similarities between the two?

It may be that the two legions had 'failed' the emporer, and their busts removed from the hall. This would then serve as a reminder to the other legions and their primarchs, and the price of failure. As to the possibility of this? First of all you could argue that an enemy existed which was strong enough to destroy a legion - perhaps a massive orc empire, some human society with 'hyper technology' as is mentioned in the Macarius crusade, or some other unmentioned alien? Secondly, the event could have happened at the beginning of the crusade when the legions were much smaller, perhaps even soon after they had won the unification wars. Remember that the Emporer's children were almost destroyed during the early part of their history.

This is kind of reinforced by the topic which came up time and time again amongst the first 3 HH books, as well as Fulgrim and FoTE, about how unthinkable it would be for one marine to fight against another. Had a collection of legions been used to wipe out one of their brother legions earlier in their history, I'm not sure they would have this kind of attitude.

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serge
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 08:42 PM


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Sorry to barge in, but this implies we have the freedom to create two DIY legions? This is very significant given that we basically only have 18 armies to choose from. Surely these missing legions also took part in the crusade. Or not?

Serge
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VESPASIAN
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 09:18 PM


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QUOTE (Pacific @ Sep 16 2008, 04:52 PM)
I have issue with your point 4, Shroud.

So much of the background surrounding the Imperium is based on Roman practices. I believe there was one incident in history of an entire legion being destroyed by barbarian tribes in Germania. Rather than admit the fallibility of the Roman Empire, any record of the legions existence was destroyed, and were erased from records. Perhaps this is another example of the similarities between the two?

The specific incident that your talking about Pacific is the Varian Disaster which happened in 9A.D.

Three entire Legions-the XVII, XVIII and XIX, along with several auxilia units, in addition to cavalry alae were wiped out over several days in an ambush by Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg Forest.

The Romans were supposed to be marching through friendly territory, so were unprepared for the attack led by Arminius (a germanic tribesman who had served as an officer in the auxilia and so knew well the tactics employed by the Romans).

The memory of these Legions was not erased (there were even forays to recover the remains of those fallen); however the numbers of the Legions were not used again due to their negative association with the disaster.

The Emperor named all twenty of the Space Marine Regiments, and these Regiments fought from the outset. The twenty Regiments, and the resultant Legions that they evolved into no doubt fought in the Wars of Unification and the Great Crusade. The question that is as yet unanswered is as to exactly when they were 'disgraced' (if this is indeed what befell them-but that again is of course another unanswerable aspect).

The missing Primarchs, certainly seem to have still been in favour with the Emperor(and by logical extension their respective Legions)/actively sought at the point of Lion El' Jonsons discovery on Caliban:

QUOTE (Descent of Angels @ Page 250)
'You mean there are others like the Lion?' asked Zahariel, incredulous that there could be other beings as sublime as Lion El'Jonson.

'Indeed,' said Israfael, 'nineteen others.'

'And where are they?' asked Zahariel.

'Ah,' said Israfael, 'therein hangs a tale.'


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Pacific
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 11:14 PM


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Hmm ok thanks for that Vespasian, I seem to remember something about those legions being unknown to the 'common man' of Rome, although my reference for that may very well be a Colleen Mcculloch book! *cough*

Still as long as we can discount Rubinceck as one of the Primarchs, as well as the Rainbow Warriors then some progress has been made in this thread smile.gif
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ShroudFilm
Posted: Sep 16 2008, 11:23 PM


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I think the previous quote from the Lightning Tower infers far too heavily that they were "heretical" for us to make an assumption that they failed through inaction or defeat. Their "separate tragedies" should have shown that Primarchs could turn against their father/brothers.

I assumed that the legions were gifted to the Primarchs in the order that they were rediscovered... hence Israfael's comments about the other 19 - they knew they existed, but the fact that they were lost was something of an in-joke.
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Pacific
Posted: Sep 17 2008, 12:04 AM


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Then why the supposed situation where it is unthinkable for one marine to kill another, which is a pretty big part of several of the HH books?

Before everything went tits-up, we are told time and time again of the infallability of the great crusade, of all humanity working for one great ideal. I can't imagine that such an ethos would exist if marine had fought marine - in any case, any kind of fight like that would be one hell of a fight, and I'm sure many of the marines would have known about it!
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renlegunvrs
Posted: Sep 17 2008, 01:08 AM


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I dont think that they turned on the other two legions for one reason. Haunter's statue was not removed but was shrouded with the traitors. He and his legion were excamunicated before the heresy took place and his statue was not removed. If the other two legions were turned on by other marines would they not have taken his down aswell, as it would have been the third chapter to turn against the emperor. I think it would have been more like a tragedy as stated. Maybe lost in the warp and mutated or their primarch being possessed or something of that kind. Remember the emperor didnt want people to know about chaos it would be a good way of hidding it if you erased a chapter.

or playing devils advocat (keep in mind i do not know the chapters history as writen) maybe one of the two is the grey knights and the other is his personal guard. legion 2 could be the custodes. make a chapter as a test then improve it and make one for yourself then go back and make a few more chapters as footsloggers to do all the dirty work. There arnt that many castodes so maybe they were harder to make. and didnt horus destroy one of the primarch vials that could have been the battlefield commander for the custodes. (just dont remember anywhere it is writen that they were made.

just my two cents
what do you think?
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Weiss
Posted: Sep 17 2008, 06:53 AM


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I can't quote a source, but it's been said tons of times in several threads elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that the Custodes were superior to the Space Marines because they are modified using a much lengthier process that does not use gene-seed, which was developed as a method of churning out super-humans fast enough to conquer the galaxy. They would therefore not have a primarch and not be a missing Legion.

Also, Horus was experiencing a warp-induced vision which, to my eyes, weakens the case for him damaging the primarch's pod.

In the new SM codex, the Grey Knights are stated as being one of the first new chapters created during the Second Founding (but still designated 666, of course). Presumably, this is to tie them in with FOTE and Garro/Iacton.
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Benedict Arnold
Posted: Sep 17 2008, 07:48 AM


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Mayhap one or both became overly fond or "corrupted" by foul xenos? I don't believe Dorn knows of Chaos during the events of the Lightning Tower, though I could be mistaken as it has been a while since I last read it. He therefore could be assuming that his misguided brothers had fallen prey to Xenos influence, like the Alpha Legion in fact had. If Alpharius and Omegon were the last two to be found, perhaps they never met the two removed Primarchs, in addition to which if there was such a stigma attached to their fall, they may not have been talked about and only brief discussion of what happened to them given. This would explain why the twins were more willing to treat with Xenos as opposed to other primarchs who were recovered earlier and might have had more experience with the fallen two or known more of their "taint".

Mutation is definately another option, as with the Thousand Sons, there was a strong call for their elimination due to rampant mutations and the high quantity of psykers. They were basically only saved by the arrival/finding of Magnus, and his subsequent stablizing of the gene seed of his Legion and his efforts to make the pight of the psyker more understood and useful.

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Mabrothrax
Posted: Sep 17 2008, 07:52 AM


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I'm pretty sure it's already been established that the Grey Knights were part of the second founding. Not 100% on that though.

As for the whys and wherefores of the missing legions I think it's important to remember that we're basing our theories and ideas on up to date fluff and written material. GW has shown an amazing ability to rewrite, ignore and retcon fluff that was established during the late eighties and early nineties.

Prior to the recent Horus Heresy series there has been, to the best of my knowledge, no writing about the missing legions. Furthermore, I'm trying to think when the missing legions were first mentioned at all in print. I suspect that the well-known chart with the Legions/Primarch/Homeworld/Succesors that's in one of the 2nd ed books (Codex Imperialis IIRC) was the first documentation. There might have been something in an RT book, or in Spacemarine. There certainly wasn't in either of the RoC books which have a substantial amount of info on the Emperor, Hersy et al.

What I'm saying is that although it's fun theorizing and all, there is no answer, (though more innuendo could perhps appear in a future HH book) and nor should there be.

Fan Legions/Primarchs take away from the mystery, no matter how well realised the concept.

I must admit though that I have used this grand conundrum in a piece of my own fiction...where by an inquisitor finds an acient and damaged cryo tube/torpedo with the number XI upon it, deep within the planet of Scelus. Nothing explicit, but enough to make people go ohmy.gif
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