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 CHAPTER ORGANISATION AND NUMBERS!, Details from BFTA!
VESPASIAN
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 12:08 PM


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Battle for the Abyss has at long last provided some specific details with regard to Chapter organisation and makeup.

Now it needs to be remembered that the excerpt specifically talks about a Chapter from the Word Bearers Legion; however I see no reason why this would not represent the standard numeric makeup for chapters from any other Legion.

QUOTE
...A thousand astartes watched him dutifully, a full Chapter split into ten Companies, each a hundred strong, their Captains to the fore.
(Page 12)

This post has been edited by VESPASIAN on Sep 9 2008, 12:10 PM
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Horn
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 12:41 PM


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Handy that that's the current system too.

Makes me wonder though.. The likes of 11th, 12th and so on. Were they larger chapters or was every company listed 1 to x regardless of its chapter.

eg.

Chapter 1
Companies 1-10

Chapter 2
Companies 11 to 20

Were chapters a 'parent' organisation or just a number of companies.
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Weiss
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 01:32 PM


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It would make more sense for me if it was:

Chapter 1, companies 1 to 10

Chapter 2, companies 1 to 10

etc...

Though the other method is equally valid.
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Horn
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 01:39 PM


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Common sense is not so common smile.gif

I prefer the obvious, but it's something to look out for. If a chapter has 10x100, then where do the post-tenth companies fit.
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VESPASIAN
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 01:51 PM


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QUOTE (Horn @ Sep 9 2008, 12:41 PM)
Handy that that's the current system too.

Makes me wonder though.. The likes of 11th, 12th and so on. Were they larger chapters?

I'm sure that there must have been larger Chapters; but the excerpt suggests to me that a Chapter with 10 Companies each of a 100 men was probably the standard form.

If we use the template of the Wordbearers, then we know that there were certainly smaller sized Chapters. The Chapter of the Void was the smallest of the entire Legion numbering less than 700 Astartes. (Page 310-311).

So it would naturally follow that there were Chapters in various Legions that were either larger or smaller then the standard. In either case it would still make sense for these larger or smaller Chapters to be composed of Companies of 100 Astartes each.

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Weiss
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 02:03 PM


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A chapter could plausibly be (except maybe in the case of Ultramarines rolleyes.gif) an ad-hoc formation formed for a specific task/warzone in a manner similar to the Black Templars Crusades. So a selection of companies would be selected from the pool of available formations with a specific mission in mind...

The companies would therefore be numbered on a separate scale.
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Gagoc TheAncient
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 03:18 PM


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Don't forget that some Legions eschewed the 'Chapter & Company' model and had instead something along the lines of Great Companies, like the Space Wolves.

But it does seem as though there were 'Codex' Legions and 'non-Codex' Legions, even before Guilliman wrote the official handbook.
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Horn
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 06:19 PM


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Probably worthless but Galaxy in Flames - the Emperor's Children have 'over ten thousand' according to Tarvi.

I still find it strange though.

"I am Loken of the 10th Company"

"I am Khárn of the 8th Assault Company"

"I am Torgaddon of the 2nd Company"

But which Chapter lads? tongue.gif
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Gagoc TheAncient
Posted: Sep 9 2008, 10:50 PM


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Loken had at least 300 in his company, and maybe as much as 600.

Sounds more like a Great Company to me!
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W0lf
Posted: Jan 25 2009, 09:03 PM


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Surely you'd say;

Im am Kharn, XII Legio, 4th chapter, 2nd co.

(the company i like...its just made up)
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Pacific
Posted: Jan 27 2010, 08:39 PM


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We now have Raven's Flight as a new source of information, which says that Corax landed on Istvaan (prior to the massacre) with an almost full legion of 80,000 marines.

It is also mentioned that this was one of the smaller legions! Can't remember the exact quote, but Corax was musing about the inability of his Legion to attack along broad fronts like some of the larger Legions, and hence the development of 'hit & run' tactics.
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ShroudFilm
Posted: Jan 28 2010, 12:42 AM


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Aye, I was going to bring this up. The facts are thus:

1) Corax made planetfall on Istvaan V with around 80,000 Raven Guard.
2) Another 300 or so reserves had remained on Deliverance under Captain Bran.
3) Within 7 days, Corax had suffered 75%-90% losses, meaning he had between 20,000 and 8,000 Astartes remaining on the planet.
4) By the time of the evacuation 84 days later, he was down to 3,000 survivors. That's more than 96% of the entire legion lost in just under three months, and the majority within the first week.

ohmy.gif

As one of the smaller legions, that means our original estimate of the Ultramarines (being the biggest legion) at 100,000 might actually be FAR too low.

We can assume that all the legions had at least 60,000 Astartes then. Does that sound right?

The Alpha Legion may have had even fewer than the Raven Guard, and indeed their tactics would reflect that I guess...
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The Red Sorcerer
Posted: Jan 28 2010, 05:11 PM


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Collected Visions has the ultras at over 250,000 marines, and most at around 100,000. Other sources seem to suggest lower numbers (certainly some of the numbers quoted in earlier novels suggest far smaller Legions) but Raven's Flight now seems to be going for the 'high count' numbers again - certainly the RG having around 80,000 fits well with most Legions having around the 100,000 marine mark.
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Pacific
Posted: Jan 28 2010, 07:25 PM


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Yeah it looks like Raven's Flight has finally made the jury cast their vote about Legion sizes, as it backs up the '250,000' of Collected Visions talking about the Ultramarines. Unless of course its another Gav Thorpe 'Angels of Darkness' which temporarily gets everyone excited only to be completely ignored by every other author involved! biggrin.gif

I know there are some negative points to this, but overall I think it makes more sense - the Legions were the all-conquering force of the Crusade, backed up by the Imperial Army. I always found it hard to imagine how a force of several thousand marines could conquer a star system, but if you have tens of thousands at your disposal (an army for all extents and purposes) then it becomes a very different story.

It also gives credence to the idea of having many expeditions spread throughout the galaxy, heading in all different directions, not necessarily under the direct auspices of their Primarch. Not only does this give more room for maneuver as far as modelling and painting goes, it gives a lot more opportunity for narrative to be created (you can imagine some interesting 'brother vs brother' scenarios coming out of it for isntance).
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eFTy
Posted: Jan 28 2010, 09:53 PM


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We already knew most legions were spread out across multiple expedition fleets, like the Blood Angels and the Emperor's Children in Fulgrim.

As for the whole Chapter - Company debate - are you sure chapters weren't simply another name for companies or grand companies, depending on each legion?
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The Red Sorcerer
Posted: Jan 29 2010, 12:05 PM


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QUOTE (eFTy @ Jan 28 2010, 09:53 PM)
As for the whole Chapter - Company debate - are you sure chapters weren't simply another name for companies or grand companies, depending on each legion?

Its not quite that simple really - the SW only ever had 13 Grand Companies, and the Death Guard and Salamanders only had 7. Seeing as a 'Chapter' in pre-heresy terms seems (at least with some Legions) to be a 1000 man formation split into 10 companies, that would make these Legions far to small if their companies were Chapter equivalents. I think there is a large amount of variation between the Legions at this stage.

I'm with Pacific, I have always prefered the 'high count' numbers for Legion size, it makes far more sense given the spread of their operations and the fact they pacified entire planets/systems themselves.

This post has been edited by The Red Sorcerer on Jan 29 2010, 12:06 PM
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eFTy
Posted: Jan 29 2010, 01:35 PM


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What I was trying to say is that a Death Guard 'grand company' is not the same thing as an Iron Warrior 'grand company'. Legion organizations were not set in stone. For instance, from what I read in Battle for the Abyss I understood 'chapters' to work very much like companies - some bigger, some smaller, with various specialized troops and equipment. Things varied even inside a legion, you can be pretty sure they varied even moreso between legions. Some legions probably lacked the word 'chapter' completely in their organization.
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Weiss
Posted: Jan 29 2010, 03:30 PM


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Hmm... Suddenly "10 companies" of Morlocks doesn't seem so unreasonable...
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Fallen_Warrior
Posted: Feb 2 2010, 02:11 AM


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I just listened to Raven's Flight today...... The large numbers are going to make things so interesting biggrin.gif

Also means that no matter what people choose for their forces, it should work out pretty well. As there would have to be such a large variety while keeping them discernible during combat.

And lets me use other legions and chaos shoulder pads (painted in alternate colours) as grand company/company/chapter/squad markings..... I also don't have to be so concerned about blood drops on my Dark Angels biggrin.gif
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Torg
Posted: Feb 2 2010, 08:58 AM


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That would explain why in Horus rising
their can be not just Abaddon as capt but also Kalus Ekkaddon
as well as Falkus Kibre as a captain in the same Company. smile.gif
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