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The Great Crusade > Pre-Heresy Background Q&A > Pre-Heresy Vehicles and War Machines

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Title: Pre-Heresy Vehicles and War Machines
Description: What was available?


ShroudFilm - May 4, 2008 01:36 AM (GMT)
Thanks to TheRedSorceror for originally posting this exhaustive list!

=====================================================

Rhino
Pre-Heresy. (source: Imperial Armour II, Index Astartes, Collected Visions)
Probably also in use with Imperial army during this period (source: Imperial Armour II)

Razorback
Post-Heresy. Introduced M.36 (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Land Raider
Pre-Heresy. (source: Imperial Armour II, Index Astartes, Collected Visions)
Also available to the Imperial Army during the Great Crusade (source: Imperial Armour II, Index Astartes)

Land Raider Proteus
Pre-Heresy. (source: Collected Visions)

Land Raider Achilles
Pre-Heresy. Inroduced late Great Crusade(source: Forgeworld)

Land Raider Helios
Post-Heresy. Introduced M38 (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Land Raider Crusader
Post-Heresy. Introduced M39 (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Land Raider Redeemer
Post-heresy. Developed after M39. (Source: Codex Space Marines 5th Ed.)

Predator Destructor
Pre-Heresy. (source: Imperial Armour II, Index Astartes, Collected Visions)
Probably also in use with Imperial army during this period (source: Imperial Armour II)

Predator Annihilator
Post-Heresy. Introduced M.36 (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Baal Predator
Pre-Heresy. Early Great Crusade, only used by the Blood Angels as they did not pass the STC on to the Mechanicum. (Source: Index Astartes, Imperial Armour II)

Whirlwind
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions, Novels - Fulgrim, The Primarchs - 'the Lion')

Vindicator
Heresy-era. Early Heresy period (Source: Apocalypse expansion)

Land Speeder
Pre-Heresy. Introduced late in the Great Crusade. (source: Imperial Armour II, Collected Visions)
Also in use by the Imperial Army during this period (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Land Speeder Tornado
Pre-Heresy. Introduced late in the Great Crusade. (source: Imperial Armour II, Collected Visions)

Land Speeder Typhoon
Pre-Heresy. Introduced late in the Great Crusade. (source: Novels - Prospero Burns)

Land Speeder Tempest
Post-Heresy. Introduced M.38 (Source: Imperial Armour II)

Dreadnought
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions, Imperial Armour Vol. II, Novels)

Furioso Dreadnought
Pre-Heresy/Heresy Era. (Source: Codex BA)

Contemptor Dreadnought
Pre-Heresy/Heresy Era. (Source: Collected Visions, Forgeworld)

Bike
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions)

Attack Bike
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions)

Imperial Jetbike
Pre-Heresy. (Sources: Collected Visions, Codex: Dark Angels)

Jetbike Attack 'Chariot'
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions)

Stormbird
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Novels)

Thunderhawk
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions, Novels)

Caestus Assault Ram
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Imperial Armour 10)

Immolator
Post-Heresy. Introduced M35 (Source: Index Astartes, Codex Sisters of Battle, Imperial Armour Vol. II)

Exorcist
Post-Heresy. Introduced M.36 (Source: Index Astartes Vol. II)

Leman Russ
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Imperial Armour I, Novels - Legion, Mechanicum)

Leman Russ Executioner
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Imperial Armour I)

Leman Russ Vanquisher
Unknown. Introduced some point before M.35 (Source: Imperial Armour I)

Leman Russ Conquerer
Post-Heresy. Introduced M.38 (Source: Imperial Armour I)

Leman Russ Annihilator
Post-Heresy. Based on the Predator Annihilator design (Source: Imperial Armour V)

Leman Russ Punisher
Post-Heresy. 'Recent' Imperial design (Source: Imperial Guard Codex)

Malcador
Unknown, probably pre-Heresy. It 'may' pre-date the Leman Russ (Source: Imperial Armour VI?)

Macharius
Post-Heresy. Based on components used during the Great Crusade, but not produced until long afterwards (Source: Imperial Armour V)

Sentinel
Pre-Heresy/Heresy-era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Chimera
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Collected Visions, Novels - Legion)

Basilisk
Pre-Heresy/Heresy era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Gryphon
Pre-Heresy/Heresy era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Hydra
Pre-Heresy/Heresy era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Dominus
Likely Post-Heresy. Developed on a 'lost' Forge World which was rediscovered (Source: Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd ed)

Baneblade/Fellblade
Pre-Heresy/Heresy-era. (Source: Collected Visions, Novels - Fallen Angels)

Shadowsword/Stormsword
Pre-Heresy/Heresy-era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Valkyrie
Pre-Heresy/Heresy-era. (Source: Collected Visions)

Centaur
Pre-Heresy. (Source: Novels - Legion)

Testudo APC
Pre-Heresy/Heresy Era. (Source: Novels - Fallen Angels)

Condor Assault Carrier
Pre-Heresy/Heresy Era. (Source: Novels - Fallen Angels)

Ragnarok
Post-Heresy. Introduced M40. (Source: Epic:Swordwind)

Minotaur
Probably Pre-Heresy. May pre-date the Imperium itself (Source: Imperial Armour 7)

Valdor
Possible Heresy-era. Probably introduced during the Scouring (Source: Imperial Armour 7)

Blood Slaughterer
Pre-Heresy origins. Early variants developed by the World Eaters from standard Dreadnoughts(Source: Imperial Armour 7)

Mechanicus Ordinatus
Pre-Heresy/Heresy Period (Source: Epic:Space Marine, Novels - Fallen Angels)

The original thread is here, and includes direct quotes etc. to support the summary.

Rogal Dorn - May 4, 2008 03:18 AM (GMT)
dont forget Jetibikes....are would you consider those vehicles?

ShroudFilm - May 4, 2008 01:02 PM (GMT)
Very true... bikes of all kinds going on the list!

Vredesbyrd - May 4, 2008 01:23 PM (GMT)
Don't forget Chariots now!

ShroudFilm - May 4, 2008 01:36 PM (GMT)
Speak plainly, daemon!

The only chariot I can think of is the nasty Chaos Cultist one in the CCG. Is there an Imperial one too?

Anodyr - May 4, 2008 03:37 PM (GMT)
There is a Blood Angels chariot thing pulled by 2 jetbikes in the CCG.

GreyWolf - May 4, 2008 05:44 PM (GMT)
Do we have any idea on the Land Raider Prometheus?

Vredesbyrd - May 4, 2008 09:25 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ May 4 2008, 01:36 PM)
Speak plainly, daemon!

The only chariot I can think of is the nasty Chaos Cultist one in the CCG. Is there an Imperial one too?

Floaty Blood Angel one my friend.

ShroudFilm - May 4, 2008 10:52 PM (GMT)
It's not a standard Imperial vehicle which is available from GW, so I'm not too worried about that... if people want to convert their own, they will do! :D

Corax - May 5, 2008 02:38 AM (GMT)
@GreyWolf In IA:II the books states that the origins of the LR Prometheus are a mystery and are unknown. They are preferred over the Damocles Rhino because of the increased armor and increased communications. Most chapters will only ever have 2-3 LRPs and the chapter with the most is the Salamanders with 4 LRPs.

GreyWolf - May 5, 2008 02:43 AM (GMT)
Thanks for that Corax. Mysterious and unknown, eh? That would suggest an old pattern to me. Add in the fact that the Sallies, a PH legion, have the most of them, and I'd say that's a good enough arguement to give it a Yellow "Might have been around" listing, rather than rejecting it out of hand.

ShroudFilm - May 5, 2008 12:15 PM (GMT)
What is the Prometheus?

follieslabour - May 5, 2008 04:03 PM (GMT)
Shroud: The Prometheus is a variant Land Raider with four sets of twin linked Heavy Bolters and an advanced communications array at the expense of the front mounted Heavy Bolter, it is most often used as a command tank.

What about the Griphon, Hydra and Mammoth tanks? All three of which are cards in the CCG.

ShroudFilm - May 5, 2008 06:16 PM (GMT)
I'm only really concerned with models which are available from GW at the moment... it's mainly to avoid the "here is my PH army" posts which contain Razorbacks and otherwise unfeasible canon-breakers.

Have we left out any basic GW kits from the list?

Obviously, there were no Venerable Dreadnoughts because they have not had the millennia of service to make them 'venerable'... :D

GreyWolf - May 5, 2008 10:54 PM (GMT)
Of course, the Marines interred in such Dreadnoughts could be Unification War veterans (like if Iacton Qruze were to be put in one), which may qualify them as Venerable Geezers. Plus I'd think the rules would still fit them, seeing as the technology would be newer and presumably understood slightly better.
Also, the Prometheus is indeed available as a ForgeWorld model, and before you say that isn't a main kit, please consider that the Mk.IIb Pre-Heresy Land Raider is ALSO a ForgeWorld only model.

The Red Sorcerer - May 6, 2008 10:33 AM (GMT)
Shroud, when I put the list up I was aiming for something that was as comprehensive as possible, including every vehicle for which we had canon information regarding whether it was pre-herersy or not. So while I probably wouldn't add the LR Promethius to the list as yet, seeing as all we have is supposition based on the fact it is of mysterious origin, surely the Griffon and Hydra deserve to be there. They are currently available kits from Forgeworld for 40K and GW for Epic (and after all, most pre-heresy modellers have at least some forgeworld input into their armies), they have current rules from GW, and we have canon support for them existing at least during the heresy if not beforehand from the Collected Visions - just like the Valkyrie which is on the list. After all, they are more 'mainstream' than Fellblades, which are on the list, and there are plenty of other 'forgeworld-only' models on there.

As for the 'Mammoth' and the BA 'Chariot', I'm not so sure. After all, we have no models or rules available for those, and they may well be one-off custom vehicles.

ShroudFilm - May 6, 2008 10:43 AM (GMT)
Ok guys - I am overruled! :D

Griffon, Hydra... what else?

I still think that the Venerable Dreads aren't thematic to the PH universe. Anyone else have any thoughts? I always understood that it wa sthe 10,000 years of service that made Bjorn qualify as 'venerable'...

The Red Sorcerer - May 6, 2008 11:28 AM (GMT)
I think we can definitely place the Macharius as a post-heresy design... although I don't have Imperial Armour V to provide a definite quote, common sense suggests it must be named after Solar Macharius. Which would mean it must date from after the Macharian Crusade in the 41st Millenium. Although its probably best to wait until someone that does have IA 5 provides a more definite quote/summary of its origins. In fact, if anyone does have it, they could have a look for any info it has on the Gorgon, Centaur, and Leman Russ Annihilator as well...

As for the Venerable Dred thing, I don't think we can be sure. Yes, Bjorn is a venerable Dred and is thousands of years old, but he is the oldest Dreadnought in service, and there is no firm evidence that thousands of years of service is a pre-requisite of 'Venerable' status. So I think it's best just to leave it as grey area until we have more info.

EDIT: Oh, and Shroud, I reckon it would be good to add the link to the original thread into the summary, as it has the original quotes and and so on for more information on what we are basing it on.

Corax - May 6, 2008 09:14 PM (GMT)
The Leman Russ Annihilator - It gets its name from the Predator Annihilator. So if the Annihilator is Post-Heresy then the LRA is too. Other than that, the only other info given is about the Kreig Commanders and their disregard for tanks and men.

The Macharius - I'll paraphrase this for you. A Magos devoted his whole career to finding the other super-heavy tanks used during the Great Crusade. He found data for parts for different vehicles including the Baneblade and he presented the plans to the High Fabricator-General and was approved 200 years later. The forgeworld Lucius was allowed to manufacture the Macharius at the same time it was allowed to produce STC Baneblades and the Macharius was not produced until the Departmento Munitorum increased its demand for super-heavy tanks and Lucius was forced to revert to the Macharius. I personally would say yes because it is made of parts from super-heavy tanks from the Great Crusade.

The Gorgon - IA: V just blabs on about how it is used. <_<

The Centaur - IA: V just blabs on about how it is used. <_<

I have all the IA volumes if anyone has any questions about the stuff in them. :D

Gagoc TheAncient - May 6, 2008 11:15 PM (GMT)
What about Forge World's Medusa?
I only ask as there's a similar tank in the artbooks. It's an Ultramarine tank labelled as a Maelstrom Cannon (P386 Collected Visions).

As for the Chariot, according to the artbooks the Blood Angel's have at least a squad of them.

Corax - May 6, 2008 11:45 PM (GMT)
IA:I - The book just compares it to the other siege weaponry and how it falls short. <_<

Magos Explorator - May 7, 2008 07:08 AM (GMT)
Any information on e.g. the Damocles command rhino variant?

Weiss - May 7, 2008 08:46 AM (GMT)
None. IA just describes how it's used... <_<

The Red Sorcerer - May 7, 2008 10:04 AM (GMT)
OK, I've stuck the Gryphon and Hydra in the summary as well. And corrected the fact I had the Baneblade/Stormblade in there instead of Baneblade/Fellblade... the Stormblade is the superheavy with the big plasma gun rather than the marine version of the Baneblade, and I haven't seen anything to support them being in use pre-heresy yet.

Anodyr - May 16, 2008 03:06 PM (GMT)
Any ideas for the Leman Russ from the Space Wolves codex (Exterminator?) ?

Corax - May 16, 2008 10:21 PM (GMT)
Leman Russ Exterminator - IA: I just blabs on about how it is used. <_<

Corax - August 3, 2008 05:02 AM (GMT)
Does anyone have any information on the Thunderbolt ? I looked in IA:I and it talks about how the Thunderbolt and push into space and stuff.

dichotomancer - October 7, 2008 02:52 PM (GMT)
i was wondering if there's any info on the land raider spartan? i havent been able to find anything about it.

thanks

Apologist - October 7, 2008 03:12 PM (GMT)
The Spartan was a Land Raider variant designed during the Horus Heresy to carry a full squad of Terminator-armored Marines through the 'Ring of Death' surrounding the city of Aries Primus on Mars. The standard Land Raider at the time could not transport Terminators.

The Spartan had the standard Land Raider armament of the day, two twin-linked lascannons (heavy bolters were not standard then) but also mounted either a heavy bolter or heavy flamer on a turret on top. It was widely spread after the Heresy, but disappeared when the standard Land Raider was re-designed to carry Terminators.


Source: Wikipedia, from WD

I'm fairly sure it was based on a Rhino hull mated to the Land Raider.

Here're the templates:
http://usuarios.lycos.es/inquisitorweb/inqui47.htm

Gagoc TheAncient - October 7, 2008 03:28 PM (GMT)
There's a dedicated thread on the Spartan down in the Astartes forum.

Here's a link:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crus...hp?showtopic=54

Pacific - October 7, 2008 04:30 PM (GMT)
Hmm yes I remember seeing a model of one of those.

While I am here, can anyone think of any possible excuse for being able to use a razorback or razorback proxy of some form in a pre-heresy context? I was thinking of doing a conversion of an older model razorback, along with extra armour plating on the sides of it. (just for varieties sake really)

Thanks

Pacific - February 15, 2009 04:47 PM (GMT)
Hmm.. well it has been 4 months so think I will leave that one for now :P

Re. the Damocles.

While there has been no extra kosha information about this, its interesting to note that Tempus Fugitives have included an equivalent of it in there AoTE campaign known as the 'Halycon' (great name, one of my favourite tracks from my favourite bands, Orbital :lol: )

They write "The Halycon rhino is the forbearer to the Damocles rhino used by the Imperium in later Millenia. During the great crusade it saw widespread use amongst the Imperial Army as well as the Astartes legions."

Considering how the legions of the GC were more self contained armies in their own right, certainly when compared to the Chapters of 40k, they would have had more need than ever for command & control, as well as organisation of logistics. I would say there is a pretty good case for this vehicle to be part of the pre-heresy line up!

The Red Sorcerer - February 16, 2009 12:00 PM (GMT)
Sorry Pacific, I missed that earlier question. Actually I can think of a reason to use something similar to the Razorback - apparently when the Predator was first introduced to the Legions it was used as an armed transport similar to the Razorback, before having its transport capacity reduced and its weaponry increased so it could function purely as a tank. If you put some work in to make the old Razorback look more like an early Predator you could probably use it as such.

I agree wiuth you to an extent re. the necessity of a Command Vehicle for the Legions during the Great Crusade, but I would have thought it would be far more likely to be based on the Land Raider, seeing as they were much more common before the Heresy broke out and the Traitors took control of the primary producing Forgeworld. The greater armour and increased space inside for all the comms equipment would have made the Raider a far more attractive option to use as a command vehicle inmy opinion.

Pacific - February 16, 2009 12:21 PM (GMT)
You don't think that the Land Raider might be a bit of overkill from something like a C&C vehicle? If you think all that armour used for it would be wasted (most of the time it wouldn't be needed, but if the enemy has reached back behind your lines like this, the chances are you in trouble you may as well be driving a morris minor!) as well as things like the size of engine/weapon mounts etc. I suppose it might be some vehicle based on the LR chassis, but with some of those features intended for front-line use removed.

Although right now I'm thinking of a Land Raider with a large satalite dish on the roof, and interior detail with some marines stood inside looking at computer screens.. hmm :)

Iacton - February 16, 2009 01:10 PM (GMT)
Or sitting on reclining chairs with generic games console controllers looking into a big screen, with big speakers, and a laminate floor??

(Ah sorry, I watched too much "Pimp my Ride" the other day.... :unsure: )

Inquisitor Malaclypse - March 6, 2009 05:13 PM (GMT)
sorry to necro, but i think my query is legiitimate:

land speeders are listed for the Heresy and PH time period, but what about the variant with Typhoon launchers?

i found no mention of that variant on this list.

thanks!

Pacific - March 7, 2009 10:27 AM (GMT)
Hmm..

As far as I know there aren't any drawings in Collected Visions featuring a missile launcher on a landspeeder, and I know the 1st (2nds?) edition land speeders didn't come with them.

But I wouldn't rule it out, I like to think of things being pre-heresy as innocent until proven guilty, it makes perfect sense to stick a wacking great rocket launcer to the side of an anti-grav speeder so why not :)

Inquisitor Malaclypse - March 9, 2009 12:01 AM (GMT)
good enough for me; the pre-heresy World Eaters list i'm working on is a go.

The Red Sorcerer - March 9, 2009 11:54 AM (GMT)
I'm inclined to go with Pacific on this one. We have no solid info on when the Typhoon was introduced. Imperial Armour II says "Since its first use there have been many variants and patterns of Land Speeder. The most common are the Tornado and the Typhoon' which doesn't help much, but seeing as we know that the Tornado was in use pre-heresy seems to imply that the Typhoon probably was as well. Still, while the artwork has examples of both standard and Tornado configaration Speeders, there are no Typhoon variants, so it isn't confirmed 100%.

TyraelVladinhurst - March 17, 2009 01:41 AM (GMT)
any idea if the new leman russ' (the Eradicator and Punisher), devildog, bane wolf, and colossus?




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