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The Great Crusade > The Epic Crusade: Modelling and Painting > Betrayal on an Epic scale

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Title: Betrayal on an Epic scale
Description: Making 30k-accurate Epic lists


Apologist - November 19, 2012 01:37 PM (GMT)
Goals and targets
This 'cascade' style group blog works as follows: rather than having a set start/end date, you have small goals that build up from week to week that depend upon when you post your interest. Therefore someone who starts a week after someone else will have a different goal to that person.

These goals and targets are designed to be small and achievable, to keep your momentum up. Of course, if you want to dash ahead, that's brill there's nothing holding you back :)
You might like to double up your target, for example.

First week
Provide a 1000pt army list; assemble and undercoat at least one formation from your army list.

Second week
Complete the formation begun in the first week: fully painted, based and ready to play.

Third week
Assemble and undercoat at least one formation from your army list, and create a Blitz objective marker.

Fourth week
Complete the formation and objective begun in the third week.

Fifth week
TREAT WEEK Build and paint a War Engine (Titan, super-heavy tank, Thunder hawk etc).
CHEAT WEEK Catch up on a previous missed week's work.

Sixth week
Assemble and undercoat at least one infantry-based formation from your army list, and create a second objective marker.

Seventh week
Complete the formation and objective begun in the sixth week.


Subscribers
Adenn
Army Alpha Legion
Join date 26/11/12
1,000pt list UNPOSTED
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture Posted 7/12/12
Formation 1: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


Ahriman
Army Sons of Horus
Join date 21/11/12
1,000pt list Posted 21/11/12
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 1: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


Apologist
Army Iyanden Craftworld Eldar
Join date 19/11/12
1,000pt list Posted 19/11/12
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture Posted 21/11/12
Formation 1: Painted/based picture Posted 12/12/12
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture Posted 12/12/12
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


Ilmarinen
Army Death Guard
Join date 19/11/12
1,000pt list Posted 21/11/12; updated 23/11/12
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture Posted 26/11/12
Formation 1: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


Lord Commander Lucius
Army Emperor's Children
Join date 25/11/12
1,000pt list Posted 25/11/12
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 1: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


Mortarion
Army Death Guard
Join date 22/11/12
1,000pt list Posted 22/11/12
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formations 1, 2 and 3(!): Painted/based picture Posted 26/11/12
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture Posted 26/11/12


Pacific
Army World Eaters
Join date 19/11/12
1,000pt list UNPOSTED
Formation 1: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 1: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Assembled/undercoat picture UNPOSTED
Formation 2: Painted/based picture UNPOSTED


+++
The Tactical Command forum is developing an army list based on FW's Betrayal book. If you'd like to help develop this, please join the discussion here.
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/vie...php?f=4&t=24216

From our point of view, the standard Codex list is still perfectly playable for Epic scale engagements, but I'd be interested to know what you chaps thought about a dedicated 30k appropriate army list. Is it something you'd be interested in doing? I'd love to run a little escalation 'tale of X gamers' event here so we can all push ourselves on and make use of those tiny marines.

Anyone interested? I'd be looking at something like one formation/500pts a fortnight, which is small enough to be easy (four Land Raiders is a formation, for example, and that can be done in a night) while keeping up enthusiasm.

Ilmarinen - November 19, 2012 01:51 PM (GMT)
Oh cool!

Yeah, I'd be interested in participating in an epic escalation. I really ought to use the stuff I have, rather than keep ignoring it. Something suitably slow that I might stand a chance of keeping up sounds great!

Apologist - November 19, 2012 02:37 PM (GMT)
I think I'd quite like to run it with a cascade approach: no set start date, but the 'deadlines' are set depending upon when you express an interest. This means that people can join in as they like, which is lovely for a forum like ours, where we're all filled with enthusiasm when we see other people's finished work.

So if you'd like to join in, then the first target is:
  • Provide an army list of at least 1000pts one week from your posting date.
  • At least one formation from that list assembled and undercoated one week from your posting date.

Ilmarinen, you and I need to show a photograph on Monday and an army list before then! :o

Pacific - November 19, 2012 03:08 PM (GMT)
Definitely interested in this, have been looking for something to motivate me to get my epic stuff painted up!

Apologist - November 19, 2012 03:42 PM (GMT)
Great to have you on board!

To put my money where my mouth is, here's my list...
I've had some Eldar models waiting to be painted, but how to make it pre-Heresy appropriate? Well, one Craftworld that is strikingly different between 30k and 40k is pre-Kraken Iyanden.

At this point in history, Iyanden is the largest and most powerful Craftworld of all, so they seem very appropriate to fighting the large-scale conflicts depicted in Epic.

I'll be using the NetEA update to the Biel Tan list from the Swordwind supplement, and will be concentrating on Guardians rather than Aspect Warriors to give more of an Iyanden feel.

Here's my first 1000pt list:

GUARDIAN WARHOST [375]
Farseer, 7 Guardians, 3 Support Weapon Platforms, 3 Wraithlords

WINDRIDER TROUPE [200]
4 Jetbike, 2 Vyper

RANGER TROUPE [125]
5 Ranger

SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [300]
6 Falcon

malika - November 19, 2012 09:47 PM (GMT)
Couldn't you just paint the Aspect Warriors in Iyanden colours? I mean, Guardians are supposed to be a last resort civilian force, maybe not that fitting for Iyanden. Or perhaps these were a lot more common as the Eldar's military force as the Aspect Warriors weren't fully developed yet.

Another option would be to count them as "Black Guardians", like the ones from Ulthwe, who actually field a professional army of Guardians rather than sending out their last remaining civilians as cannon fodder.

Apologist - November 20, 2012 09:44 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (malika @ Nov 19 2012, 09:47 PM)
Couldn't you just paint the Aspect Warriors in Iyanden colours? I mean, Guardians are supposed to be a last resort civilian force, maybe not that fitting for Iyanden. Or perhaps these were a lot more common as the Eldar's military force as the Aspect Warriors weren't fully developed yet.

Yes, that would be a sensible idea. However, I want to differentiate the army from a 40k-era force, so I'm trying to make it fairly unusual compared to a 40k-era Iyanden force, it'll have comparatively few Wraith-constructs; and to make it clear it's not a Biel Tan force, I want to keep the ratio of Guardian hosts and troupes to Aspect hosts and troupes fairly high.

Last night I made a start by basecoating the Guardian formation and swapped out three of the Guardian stands for Heavy Weapon platforms for visual impact and to make the formation a bit fiercer in defence.

Guardian Hosts can swap out up to three Guardian stands for Heavy Weapon platforms, which gives them some long-range firepower: guardians are armed only with small arms unlike Marines or orks, who both have a heavy weapon in addition to their small arms so their weaponry only operates in engagements.

malika - November 20, 2012 11:27 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Yes, that would be a sensible idea. However, I want to differentiate the army from a 40k-era force, so I'm trying to make it fairly unusual compared to a 40k-era Iyanden force, it'll have comparatively few Wraith-constructs; and to make it clear it's not a Biel Tan force, I want to keep the ratio of Guardian hosts and troupes to Aspect hosts and troupes fairly high.

That's a bit of a problem with the Eldar background material. They are a dying race, yet instead of a specialized and automated army, they send in civilian militas to fight their wars... The Biel-Tan Aspect armies and Black Guardians from Ulthwe would make more sense. But yeah, try putting logic in these things huh...

So yeah, Iyanden in full glory. We could excuse the heavy presence of Guardians due to the Aspects still being formed, the Wraith constructs aren't used/needed yet. The Iyanden military is thus based on civilians and others who have taken the role of soldiers, Guardians.

Pacific - November 20, 2012 11:36 AM (GMT)
Really like the idea of a 'tale of x gamers'. Think I might well start a new project log for the details (musings and other boring stuff!) so we can keep this thread more succinct? Obviously keep the links going back and forth to this one however.

Downloaded the army list and it seems very interesting!

To be honest I'm stumbling forward in the dark here a bit having not played Epic since 2nd edition (or was it 3rd? The one with the Ultramarines/Reaver titans on the cover). I've got hold of the rules online, I assume they are the ones labelled 'm1320000_1.0' etc. (I believe I downloaded them from the GW website) ?

I did think for a while about taking the Squat route - technically, they've been re-instated into the background, and so it makes sense they would have been around during the Great Crusade era. Then I looked on ebay at what they are going for these days, and practically spat my coffee over my keyboard! :D

In any case, regarding the forum it would probably be a bit more in keeping if I went for a Legion force - I also like the idea of invoking the old Horus Heresy game, and some of that great artwork, of just having thousands of little legion guys blasting away at each other in 6mm scale.

So, Apologist please enter me up as the World Eaters Legion! Already got some Land Raiders and Rhinos painted up from some time ago, so hope to be able to add some Infantry for them to carry soon.

Apologist - November 20, 2012 12:10 PM (GMT)
I'd be inclined to keep the whole project together, to hopefully build up some lively discussion on this area of the board. Feel free to have a subsidiary blog, though after bullying you all into digging out your Epic models, I feel a responsibility to get those models on the table and fighting wars ;)

Pacific, I've updated the first post with Legion details for you. I look forward to seeing the World Eaters emerge! If you haven't decided on a basing scheme, I'd suggest you might like to do a dark burnt earth if we can find people who want to do the other Legions, I'd be happy to organise a Drop Site Massacre event...

+++
Starting out with Epic
The rules are freely available on GW's homesite, and Net Epic Armageddon continues to develop the world with updated rules and FAQs, plus new lists.

The NetEA link contains links to a version of the rules with the FAQs and errata taken in, so I'd recommend using that (though definitely get the GW download for all the gorgeous design and artwork).

Army Building
There's also a very nifty tool for online army building available here:
Armyforge

Astartes Modus Operandi
Generally, if you're playing Marines, you should use the Codex Astartes list, but the various Chapter lists (Salamanders, Imperial Fists etc) are all very useable and characterful.

My Aethon Company blog contains some basic guidance on building a fairly generic army, with some applications of the rules in terms of choosing your force.

HandOfIron - November 20, 2012 12:38 PM (GMT)
I don't have any Epic models as of yet...but I'd be tempted to start, as long as it's not too expensive...

Apologist - November 20, 2012 12:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (HandOfIron @ Nov 20 2012, 12:38 PM)
I don't have any Epic models as of yet...but I'd be tempted to start, as long as it's not too expensive...

Cheap as chips a quick search on ebay has this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Wargames-RolePla...m=R40&_nkw=epic

Marines are amongst the cheapest of all the armies to collect, as they've appeared in every iteration of the game, and are amongst the best supported. The modern vehicles are more expensive, but as a 30k player, the old Epic plastics are being reintroduced as Horus Heresy-era types!

Lord_Mortirion - November 20, 2012 03:05 PM (GMT)
could be tempting, ill see what i have left in the loft at the parents house, im sure i had some epic stuff from way back when...

wordbearers would have had red armour at the dropsite massacare wouldnt they??

Pacific - November 20, 2012 03:31 PM (GMT)
Excellent Apologist, thanks very much for the links - very useful! I really had no idea that there was so much of an epic community still out there, it's kind of heartening.

Just raided my parent's attic, after fighting off legions of spiders, bugs and the deformed, mentally deranged second cousin we keep locked up there, managed to find these little treasures.

By the way, found some orc, eldar and IG stuff as well if anyone wants a trade! In particular I've got a load of the old ork metal vehicles (scorchas, gobsmashas, those tiny gargants, things like that).

An old style Warlord (actually prefer these to the newer ones, they seem more plausible somehow) - desperately in need of some work, and some weapons!
user posted image

Look at the thickness of paint on this thing, I think there is a Shadowsword under there somewhere! Great to see that these are usable on that 30k list.
user posted image

Some Rapiers (will add an SM crew to it, probably keep the old school IG model on there as well - and look, mounted on Space Crusade blip tokens! :)), and also got about a half dozen each of the dreadnoughts and robots (concerning the latter, I'm guessing I would have to use them as allies as there are no admech on the list yet?)
user posted image

Absolutely no idea what this thing is, but possibly with some work might serve as a Storm Eagle (EDIT++ Stormbird)? Thinking of that old piece of artwork with the marines all jumping out of the bottom of the large VTOL craft..
user posted image

Some more models that again look like they have been undercoated in woad!
user posted image

And the prize of the bunch, a couple of Reavers! One of them has obviously suffered a reactor implosion, the other was painted by myself probably about 20 years ago! Thinking of doing these guys as the 'Warped Dogs', the eventual traitor titan legion that was mentioned in the original HH story.
user posted image

Plenty to work with in any case, will start painting some stuff as I read though the rulebooks.

Apologist - November 20, 2012 04:53 PM (GMT)
Quite a haul there!

QUOTE
By the way, found some orc, eldar and IG stuff as well if anyone wants a trade! In particular I've got a load of the old ork metal vehicles (scorchas, gobsmashas, those tiny gargants, things like that).

If you can PM me some pics, I'm sure I've got some juicy swapsies. Let me know what you're after for your force, and I'll see what I can dig out.

Love the idea of the Warped Dogs making a return.

ahriman - November 20, 2012 07:27 PM (GMT)
Very interesting idea for a thread and one I am very happy to see as it should lead to a lot more of us having semi-complete epic armies.

I myself am very up for this needing every push I can receive to get stuff like this sorted. Here is my first 1000pts list, it's simply taken from the 3,000pts one I did at the start of my project so I'm unaware as to whether its legal or not

Horus' Own:

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [475]
6 Tacticals, Transport, Captain, Hunter, dreadnought

ASSAULT DETACHMENT [225]
4 Assault Units, Captain

WHIRLWINDS [300]
4 Whirlwinds

Ilmarinen - November 20, 2012 09:44 PM (GMT)
Ok, before I decide on an army, what are people's views on the available armour marks?

In particular, I'm trying to imagine painting Epic marines (either the Mk6 ones, or the ones with pad rims) as Death Guard, or some other Isstvan 3/5 Legion, but it's bringing me out in a cold sweat and sending me into OCD territory!

Now, I'd really rather not try and convert every single 6mm miniature.

Hmm, if I did a Siege of Terra themed epic army, would that be ok for this project? Or would that ruin the plan to follow the FW HH books?


+Edit+

At this scale, the Mk6 could pass as Mk4, couldn't it?

Pacific - November 20, 2012 10:20 PM (GMT)
TBH mate I think getting into a cold sweat, and perhaps ultimately a white padded cell, is entirely down to your own discretion! :)

I felt like I was ruining my eyesight painting Flames of War stuff (which is 15mm - more than double the scale of these guys!) so I'm probably going to draw the line at a dob of boltgun metal for the gun, and colouring their shoulder pads. But, it is possible of course to go to quite mental lengths in converting stuff (Ahriman may be beating you to the padded cell there, looking at his blog :D ) and Apologist's Ultramarines have an absolutely stunning level of detail.

The basic marine guys you get these days (mk7? I'm not sure) I think are suitably generic enough that if you make the effort with colour schemes and maybe a banner or 2 (just use the BoLS legion markings and print onto some decal paper) to mark them as being a pre-heresy legion. If you're going the loyalist route I guess it will be that much harder to differentiate them from their 40k counterparts however.

user posted image

voltan - November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Pacific @ Nov 20 2012, 03:31 PM)
Absolutely no idea what this thing is, but possibly with some work might serve as a Storm Eagle (EDIT++ Stormbird)? Thinking of that old piece of artwork with the marines all jumping out of the bottom of the large VTOL craft..
user posted image

It's a triax vtol from the old megaforce range
An old megaforce website thing

Apologist - November 21, 2012 08:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen)
Ok, before I decide on an army, what are people's views on the available armour marks?

[...]
Now, I'd really rather not try and convert every single 6mm miniature.


Well, the point of the project is really to get people playing with the Epic armies that they have lurking in their lofts, after getting them painted; the amount of work and complexity you go into is completely up to you.

I would say that Epic rewards simple painting techniques and striking colour schemes more than lots of detail (it simply isn't very visible on the tabletop), but it's certainly possible to invest Epic miniatures with lots of individuality and character too.

My suggestion would be to mix up the old marine miniatures the mk VI and mk VII look good on the same bases, and it helps to break up the monotony. Both can pass for Heresy-era marks (IV and V respectively) very nicely.

Once you've picked a Legion, get them undercoated and painted with your basic colour, then pick out the guns with black or silver (to contrast). A quick wash and basing later, and you'll be surprised how quickly you can get a force painted.

QUOTE (Ilmarinen)
Hmm, if I did a Siege of Terra themed epic army, would that be ok for this project? Or would that ruin the plan to follow the FW HH books?


I think that would be awesome any Heresy-era army should fit the project :)

+++

QUOTE (Ahriman)
Very interesting idea for a thread and one I am very happy to see as it should lead to a lot more of us having semi-complete epic armies.

Great to have you on board I'll update the opening post. :)

The list you posted is perfectly legal the only real restrictions for the Astartes list are no more than 1/3 War Engines, and 01 Supreme Commander.

Apologist - November 21, 2012 09:08 AM (GMT)
Right, being the elder species and all, I'd better show you puny humans how an Eldar does it!

Iyanden, Everguard of Asuryan
Here's my undercoated pic:
user posted image

I've decided to start with an infantry formation. The Biel Tan Eldar list I'm using is built around Hosts (large infantry blocks), with Troupes (smaller, more specialised formations) in support. This is a Guardian Host, which is made up of one Farseer stand and seven Guardian stands. Up to three Guardian stands can be swapped out for Heavy Weapons teams. I've gone for the full three, as I really like the models, and they provide some decent mid-range shooting.

I've also reinforced the formation with three Wraithlords and three Support Weapon platforms. These give the formation some real teeth, with a combination of longer range and macro-weapons in assault.

As well as simply making the formation fiercer, enlarging a formation has more subtle effects larger formations can absorb more blast markers before they break, and they have more potential for defensive or offensive positioning. For example, the Wraithlords can be placed near the flanks of the formation to help dissuade small assault formations from engaging them.

+++
I decided I'd best lead by example, so I thought I'd get stuck into the painting, too. I start off with a grey undercoat (Halford's grey primer) followed by a spritz with white (an ancient pot of GW Skull White spray I found lurking in my acrylics bag).

user posted image

I then base-coated the formation with a 50:50 mix of Vallejo White the Yriel Yellow (how fitting!)
user posted image

...before giving them a wash of Gryphonne Sepia. While wet, I touched in some Leviathan Purple for variety this helps mute some of the areas of the figures to give the illusion the figures are individuals.
user posted image

Once dry, the blue parts of the figures were carefully painted with Regal Blue.
user posted image

The guns, ammo and other contrasting parts were touched in with Charadon Granite.
user posted image

Bar basing, I'd now consider these figures ready to be used Epic figures really reward a simple, clean approach, and are a refreshing change to 28mm figures.

Here's a finished example I've taken these chaps a little further, with the guns detailed with Mithril Silver and Dheneb Stone; the blue areas highlighted with Mordian Blue; the yellow areas cleaned up with highlights of the Vallejo White/Yriel Yellow mix; and the bases painted with Mourn Mountain Snow then drybrushed with Vallejo White.
user posted image

I hope you like' em my aim was to show that a game quality formation, even of traditionally challenging colours, can be achieved in a single evening.

Ilmarinen - November 21, 2012 03:40 PM (GMT)
Very nice! :)

I've decided I'm going to go Death Guard.

I kinda want to make tiny versions of the 28mm army I'm going to make, so I'm going to use the HH:Betrayal Epic list.

Apologist - November 21, 2012 04:23 PM (GMT)
Thanks!

I've updated the opening post looking forward to seeing people's undercoated troops and 1000pt lists.

+++

Can we find an Emperor's Children player? That'd make the Betrayal on Isstvan Legions complete! :)

Ilmarinen - November 21, 2012 09:25 PM (GMT)
Ok, here's my starting 1000 points of tiny DG:

LEGION TACTICAL DETACHMENT [500]
8 Tactical with Bolters
Lieutenant Commander
3 Heavy Support Squads (Missile Launchers, Flak Missiles)
2 Rapier Laser Destroyers

ARTILLERY TANK SQUADRON [250]
3 Basilisks

LEGION CONTEMPTOR DREADNOUGHT TALON [250]
4 Contemptors

This could form the core of my home defence - is it a good list?


I'm liking the HH:B-style Epic army list.

Questions:
Do the support detachments operate separately from the main detachments?
It lists Dreadnought as an upgrade option for the Contemptor Talon, so I could take another 2 Contemptors - would this be a good idea?

fattdex - November 21, 2012 09:36 PM (GMT)
Hi guys, great to see some interest for epic 30k! I'm authoring the Isstvan iii list over at tac coms as linked in the original post, and would be grateful for any feedback on the list work you may have, as it is still in early development.
As the list is designed for blue on blue play, and it will be part of an ongoing series as new forgeworld books come out, i don't want to include absolutely everything from the 30k universe in one hit. After further reading of the battles presented in Betrayal, i will include the warlord titan in the army list, but i am thinking of including specific units as useable in specific battles, so that the list does not become cluttered for regular tournament scenario play, and different flavour can be added to campaign battles. I am thinking of seeker squads being available to the traitors mid campaign, dies irae being available in the final battle, defences and ambush (played like planetfall) available to the loyalists as they would not have the advantage of aircraft or drop pods in most battles. I am loathe to stat a stormbird before forgeworld do too, incase they retro-invent something radical, but that should not matter as they were not important on isstvan iii (if you take betrayal as gospel).

Anyway, hello and thanks for giving the list a look!

fattdex - November 21, 2012 09:41 PM (GMT)
Ilmarinen- looks very death guardey! You might want to leave the rapiers if you intend to retain rhinos, as they will prevent the detachment from being mobile. Perhaps add a vindicator instead?

Support detachments operate as indepurndent formations yes so you have three drops so far.
Dreadnought upgrade on a talon will allow you to expand them to six.

Pacific - November 21, 2012 09:42 PM (GMT)
Those look great Apologist!

I'd forgotten how little 1000pts gets you in this game! But I must say revisiting this game has brought back memories of playing 20,000+ point games when I was a kid with 3-4 of us on each side of 15ft of table length and a dozen titans and gargants scrapping it out! Epic in every sense of the word, and I hope that we can try and achieve something similar! :)

@Voltran - great thanks for that mate, used to love those toys had a pretty big collection of them as a child!

Just looking at stuff on ebay at the moment, can anyone remember if this box contains mk6 or mk7 marines?

user posted image


Pacific - November 21, 2012 09:52 PM (GMT)
fattdex - great to have you posting on here and thanks for your list, as you can see it has helped to create something of en Epic renaissance here! :)

I will say while it's wonderful that the list can be as close to HH: Betrayal as possible, I think it would be shackling the strengths of the Epic system not to include things like Warlord Titans! Also, I can see people (well, at least myself!) wanting to include Stormbirds - without knowing much about the epic system myself (I haven't played for at least 15 years, although it was the system that got me interested in wargaming) would it be possible to come up with some kind of provisional rule set? In the (IMO unlikely for the near future) situation that an official Stormbird /w rules comes along, you can always just jump in to the PDF and change it to fit?

There are some real background nuts on this forum who I'm sure would be more than happy to help you in matching the capability of the Stormbird in the background to any kind of ruleset for them you might want to make.

Although regarding both of the above, presumably it would be fairly easy in any case for the community to bodge on things like Warlords and other bits on to the list if they so chose?


Ilmarinen - November 21, 2012 10:34 PM (GMT)
Hi fattdex - welcome to TGC! :)

These Tac units are going to be without Rhinos - my next 1000 points will have a mechanised detachment.

Regarding your HH army list - as I mentioned over on Tac Coms, I'd like to see the other options if possible, such as the Breachers - not sure if they'd work better as an Upgrade or a Support Detachment?

It could be possible to add Destroyers (at least in modellng terms - 1 ML and 4 bolter marines to a stand) and give them the ability to reduce an opposing units save?

I'd also love to see more Centurion options - there are Epic minis that can represent the Forge Lord and Primus Medicae (and there is a Death Guard Medicae Rhino in Collected Visions!!!).

fattdex - November 22, 2012 02:19 AM (GMT)
At epic level gameplay- there comes a point where having too many infantry types that fill a similar purpose becomes redundant and bloats the list a bit too much. Seekers, destroyers, breachers etc function similar in game terms to other infantry types- it is best not to invent too many special rules either. There is a crossfire mechanic which reuces the enemies armour save when set up properly- perhaps you could model a scout unit as destroyers, and use them as your crossfire givers?

Primus medicae, forge lord, i dont think there are useful ways to integrate them to provide anything for the squads. There is nothing wrong with adding them to a lord commanders stand to make him blingier, or just to an infantry stand as a faux lieutenant, either.

I'll be adding he warlord to the list next version for sure, i will also make experimental stats for a stormbird if someone can point me in the right direction for detailed info- i have done some research, i thought perhaps it can transport 16 infantry/bike/dreadnought/terminator stands (dreads/termies take two slots) plus transports (no war engines), DC4, planetfall, bomber, 4/4/6, reinforced armour, front dual assault cannon, rear dual assault cannon, side twin heavy bolters, 8x bloodstrike style missiles (at3 60cm, one shot), around 400 pts.

Ilmarinen - November 22, 2012 07:07 AM (GMT)
Fair enough - I'm new to Epic, so I don't yet know the nuances. :)

In reply to your comment on Tac Coms - I'd missed the artillery restriction in HH:B - it makes sense to keep the 0-1.

Apologist - November 22, 2012 09:56 AM (GMT)
Hey fattdex, good to have you on board. Regarding Stormbirds, there's not ahuge amount of info to go on other than they're atmosphere and void-capable (Horus Rising, the Garro series) and that they can carry at least fifty marines (Horus Rising). Your suggested stats look good to me; though I'd be wary about having so many one-shot weapons, purely from a note-taking point of view.

QUOTE
There is nothing wrong with adding them to a lord commanders stand to make him blingier, or just to an infantry stand as a faux lieutenant, either.

Yes, I use a banner bearer as a counts-as Captain in a Tactical formation, for example.

user posted image

The granularity of the Epic system is more coarse than the 40k system; and there's a lot of discussion on the TacComms forum regarding when something becomes significantly different enough to warrant new rules. For example, in the standard Codex Astartes list, all Land Raider variants (Prometheus, Phobos, Redeemer etc.) are simply Land Raiders; any differences being purely cosmetic.

A couple of reasons for this are:
1) Easy reference a heavy tank company is just a heavy tank company. This eases and streamlines gameplay for both players.
2) Internal balance in Epic, the weaknesses of armies are as pronounced as their strengths. The Codex Astartes list has virtually no macro-weapons or titan killer weapons; Eldar have small, brittle formations; orks have poor initiative etc.

In 40k, we're used to Tactical Squads being startlingly different to Sternguard squads, for example; but in Epic, they're both best represented as Tactical formations the additional granularity doesn't add enough to the game to game the additional complication.

Of course, if you want a Veteran formation, there's nothing to stop you painting a Tactical Formation up as Veterans and having them led by the Supreme Commander, for example. These cosmetic differences are very encouraged most Epic players are long-standing veterans of tabletop wargaming and encourage creative conversion, modelling and painting ideas. :)

Similarly, a Breacher formation might be well represented using a Devastator formation: there are typically fewer of them per squad than in a standard tactical squad, and they have fiercer firefight and heavy weapon abilities.

Adenn - November 22, 2012 11:32 AM (GMT)
Nice to see peeps doing things with epic again :P I'd join in if i didn't have 4 projects on the go (!!!), got a massive box of MK7 (So, MK5, honest.) marines, the old rhinos and raiders, robots, bikes, jetbikes, speeders, assault marines, 6 warlord titans, basically everything, that i'm still meaning to make Alpha Legion. I'd jump on this right now if i wasn't way, way too busy to guarantee finishing anything in time ;)


Oh, as an aside, if anyone's got desperate need for anything off the old marine sprues, I.E. these http://www.craftworldgames.co.uk/bbim3.JPG i have like 40 of the things, way more than i'm ever likely to use everything from, plus a ton of MK1 Rhinos/Raiders, hell i probably don't need 6 warlords, so i'd be happy to do bitz trades for whatever :lol:

Mortarion - November 22, 2012 12:23 PM (GMT)
Im up for this, I'll do my Iron Warriors in epic scale! My 1000(well 975) point list will be as follows:

Iron Warriors, 975 POINTS
Codex Astartes (NetEA Army Compendium v20120208)
==================================================

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [375]
6 Tacticals, Supreme Commander

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [275]
6 Tacticals

LAND RAIDERS [325]
4 Land Raiders

Apologist - November 22, 2012 12:55 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen)

LEGION TACTICAL DETACHMENT [500]
8 Tactical with Bolters
Lieutenant Commander
3 Heavy Support Squads (Missile Launchers, Flak Missiles)
2 Rapier Laser Destroyers


A nice solid detachment. The inclusion of some AA fire (Flakk missiles) is a useful bonus. Normally Rapiers would slow you down, but having no transports means this formation will be nice and solid. Transports are generally handy for the Space Marine playstyle as they're free (by virtue of the Transport armywide rule), provide cover for infantry (enemy shooting at infantry in base contact with a vehicle are at -1 to hit) and increase the size and therefore break point of the unit.

Reasons you might not want to take transport include:
1) Increasing the size of the formation makes the footprint bigger, which has implications for engagements and makes it harder to use LoS blocking terrain.
2) Formations with one or fewer units with a speed over 15cm can Garrison, which means you can set them up on a forward objective and start threatening the enemy from the start. This helps offset the lack of manoeuvrability.
3) It's very characterful for the Death Guard!

QUOTE
ARTILLERY TANK SQUADRON [250]
3 Basilisks

Basilisks, like all artillery, can be very scary for your opponent. I think they're a decent choice, but you'll need to keep them covered from air attacks/teleports.

QUOTE
LEGION CONTEMPTOR DREADNOUGHT TALON [250]
4 Contemptors

Dreadnoughts in dedicated formations could be quite good they're not popular in Codex Astartes lists because they slow things down and the strength of the list is in its speed and resilience.

QUOTE
Questions:
Do the support detachments operate separately from the main detachments?

Items under 2.1 (Space Marine Legion Detachments), 2.2 (Space Marine Legion Support Detachments) and 2.4 (Allies and Lords of War) form separate formations in game.

Items from 2.3 (Legion Upgrades) are additions to the unit. These may be unit upgrades (e.g. Centurion, which alters one of the existing Tactical Units: it retains its existing rules and stats, but gain addition rules) or additional models (e.g. Dreadnought, which adds a Dreadnought to an existing unit).

Example:
You buy a Legion Tactical Detachment and then buy the Tank and Centurion upgrades. You end up with:
7 normal Tactical stands, 1 Tactical stand with a Chaplain, 4 Rhinos and two Predators.

It lists Dreadnought as an upgrade option for the Contemptor Talon, so I could take another 2 Contemptors - would this be a good idea?

In this case, I'd say yes. Space Marines usually have And They Shall Know No Fear, which makes it harder to suppress and break them. The Legion list currently doesn't have anything like this, which means that small formations are easy to suppress and break:

A formation takes a blast marker if it is fired upon (even if no casualties are caused), and an additional blast marker for every casualty taken. Once the number of blast markers is equal to or greater than the remaining number of models/stands in the formation, the formation is broken. Blast markers suppress individual units and stop them from shooting.

e.g. A formation of five Eldar grav tanks is fired upon and takes two casualties. This breaks the formation two blast markers from casualties, and one blast marker from being fired upon.

e.g. A formation of five Eldar grav tanks is fired upon and takes one casualty. The formation is not broken. However, having taken two blast markers, when they activate, two of the survivors will be suppressed, so only two will be eligible to shoot.

And They Shall Know No Fear means that Space Marines usually need two blast markers to suffer these effects: a formation of six Tactical stands needs twelve blast markers to be broken; and only one stand will be suppressed for every two blast markers.

Without this rule, you can see that even a single casualty on a small formation can be crippling; a standard Dreadnought talon of four that suffers a single casualty will only have one that can shoot!

This is something that I think may need to be addressed in fattdex's list; perhaps with a modified version of ATSKNF, as in 40k Betrayal.


+++
QUOTE (Pacific)
Just looking at stuff on ebay at the moment, can anyone remember if this box contains mk6 or mk7 marines?

I'm fairly sure that's a 3rd edition box (just before Epic: 40,000), so it'll have Mk VII marines for the most part I think it's the sprues that Adenn has linked to. The Assault Marines, Devastators, Sergeants and Captains on that sprue are still Mk VI. For whatever reason, GW only resculpted the standard tacticals, so everything else is rimless and beaky.

+++
QUOTE (Adenn)
I'd jump on this right now if i wasn't way, way too busy to guarantee finishing anything in time

Jump on! This is a cascade escalation project; so all you'd have to do in the first week is dig 'em out and spritz them with some undercoat. Anyone can manage a single formation in an evening: it's one of the joys of Epic! :)

+++
EDIT
Mortarion welcome aboard! :)
Army list all done now a week for you to get a formation assembled and painted. The list looks nice and solid (very fitting for Death Guard) which formation are you going to start with?

Ilmarinen - November 22, 2012 01:44 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the feedback dude!

Hmm, I hadn't thought about the ATSKNF rule - that does make a big difference, doesn't it.

What do you reckon fattdex?

Pacific - November 22, 2012 08:03 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the post there Apologist, very informative!

Just mounting some marines on cocktail sticks for painting so hopefully should have something to show soon.

Enjoying reading the rulebook at the moment, it's very concise and also pretty funny at times too. Stuff like this..

"We're safe 'ere gobbitz. There is no way da beakies can get to us at da top of dis cliff"
- Last words of Gibli the Gretchin before being overrun by Space Marine Assault troops from the Salamander Chapter.

fattdex - November 23, 2012 12:38 AM (GMT)
Hey guys,
This is why i need playtesters ;-)! I feel that the units can operate as intended without atsknf, due to larger formation sizes when upgraded. The formaton sizes are analagous to the black legion list and they are a power armour army that gets by without it. i dont particularly want to add atsknf's 2x blast marker to suppress due to the larger size of the formations, it will make everything just that much tougher, and you get a reduced unit price to compensate for it. In general one would want to have larger formations unless they are being delivered via transport; ie a formation of four dreadnoughts will fit in a thunderhawk for air assault delivery mitigating the weakness of having a smaller unit; a unit of six contemptors with assault cannon are a useful garrisson unit and are sturdier under fire. Many formations will want to arrive via drop pod which also reduces the amount of fire they take before arriving- but as i posted at tac comms, as a preview of my concept, when the missions are in, many will involve loyalists dug into position with less tank/no air support overwatch or attempting to sustain fire upon advancing traitors assaulting their positions, with armour, flyers and transports. If the defenders are able to suppress incoming tanks by concentrating fire, they will sand a better chance, and tha's going to be quite hard when you need to have four plus blast markers upon a land raider unit to begin refucing its effectiveness (nb the missions wont restrict what units you can take; just suggest.). Another mission device i need to test is loyalists able to place a number of detachments in reserve to arrive by ambush, using the rules of planetstrike.

Ilmarinen - November 23, 2012 10:09 AM (GMT)
Right, I've decided I'll stick to the standard army lists for now. I've never played Epic before, so playtesting is probably a bad idea (I get confused easily!). :lol:

I'll stick with Death Guard, as I want to game Isstvan 3. Stand by for a new army list shortly.

Pacific - November 23, 2012 10:33 AM (GMT)
Think I will do the same for now mate! Just make a pile o' marines, then sort out what order they will stand in later :)

Incidentally, have just found a pile of Ork and also Squat stuff that I thought was long gone... user posted image




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