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Title: Betrayal Questions
Description: A place for FAQ style Q&A


BigWill - October 10, 2012 01:15 PM (GMT)
I thought it would be good to have a thread for rules questions regarding Horus Heresy Betrayal.

Fortronus - October 11, 2012 02:32 AM (GMT)
How is Horus Heresy Betrayal ? have not seen alot of talk about the book. Figured some of you may have gotten a copy by now. It's a pretty large price tag for a book so not sure I'll be able to get it anytime soon. But would really like to hear about it.

Morden279 - October 11, 2012 05:17 AM (GMT)
I personally don't like the omisson of special and heavy weapons options from Legion Tactical squads. It reduces the list's compatbility with vanilla C:SM players, and - as far as I can recall - doesn't reflect the existing fluff in the Black Library books, which mentions these weapons being employed in combat.

PS: In my case, 70 didn't appear to include quality control - as my copy of the book contains a pretty significant print error, which has led me to request a replacement. Unfortunately, this has sullied my very good first impression of the work.

Ilmarinen - October 11, 2012 06:45 AM (GMT)
@Fortronus - it's amazing!

@Morden - shame about the print error, but at least FW's replacement policy is good. You could cut out the good pages of artwork from your current book and have them as pictures (if you don't want them I'll take them! Particularly the Titan page!) :)

About the all-bolter tac squad - I like it. It gives them more focus and distinct flavour from 40k. Plus it matches the artwork in Collected Visions.


Here's a question from HH:B - the Legion Breacher Siege Squad has 'Veteran Upgrade' as a special rule, but no description of what this is. The Legion Veteran Tactical Squad has 'Veteran Tactics'. I've asked this question to FW on FB, so hopefully they'll be able to clarify.


Pacific - October 11, 2012 06:45 AM (GMT)
Aren't special weapons available as squads that you attach to the main unit (a la Collected Visions?)

A couple of simple questions if I may!
- What is the standard legion squad size option?
- What is the consensus on jump-pack usage amongst assault squads (is it limited in any kind of way?)

Ilmarinen - October 11, 2012 10:20 AM (GMT)
@Pacific - the basic Legion Tactical and Assault squads (troops) are 10 marines, and you can increase up to 20. The Legion Tactical Support Squad (non-compulsory troop choice) is 5-10 and the Legion Heavy Support Squad (heavy support!) is also 5-10 - they get the special or heavy weapon options (all the same weapon in the squad).

You don't attach the support squads to tactical squads, they operate on their own.

The Assault Squad has jump packs. There is no option to remove them, but the Tactical Squad can take an additional CCW/chainsword anyway.

Morden279 - October 11, 2012 11:08 AM (GMT)
Don't get me wrong, FW customer services have always been great to deal with - it's just the 'FFS dimension' of A: This being the only time it's ever occurred in a FW book I own (I have nine), and B: The *one* book I've been looking forward to most. I'm still waiting for the email response.

In terms of a replacement, they may well ask for me to hand the tome into my local GW for return, as the invoice states it was shipped from GW HQ. (And FW 'can't ship free via GW'... Right...)

And I'm still unconvinced about the special/heavy restriction on Tac Squads. The literature for them is there, and being pedantic - their omission from cover artwork* may be explained by them being 'lost in the crowd' or - more practically - omitted through artistic license.

In any case, I'll check that Breacher Squad rule and get back to you. ;)

*Hold on - I've just remembered that Emperor's Children Marine blasting away with the Heavy Bolter on the cover of Fulgrim!

Cloud Runner - October 11, 2012 04:36 PM (GMT)
Right, I don;t have the book but have seen a friends copy (albeit briefly) and have a quick question for those that do.

I understand that the Legion tactical squad is bolters only, with sergeant upgrades.

I've read somewhere online (can't remember where) that there are 'specialities' that the legion commander can take, to mix up the squads a bit, such as allowing terminators as troops for example.

I'm sure that this mystery post I read said something about there being a way that you could add the special weapons into the tactical squads, but that seems somewhat odd.

Is this true, or am I mistaken?


Would it be possible to give an overview of each of the choices (without posting any specific rules of course :D) to give us a flavour and to hepl those of us without the book to start planning further armies.


Also, what's the situation with terminators and cataphractii? Are they distinctly separate units, or can you upgrade one way or the otehr etc?

Thanks in advance

Noserenda - October 11, 2012 04:49 PM (GMT)
Most Current tactical squads can be built as legal Veteran Tactical squads, barring some heavy weapon choices. They can be made troops by one the the rites of war.

Cataphracts are a free option for terminators.

Ilmarinen - October 11, 2012 05:16 PM (GMT)
@Morden - most people advise phoning FW, as their response time by email is known to be really slow.

FW replied to my Breacher question on FB (and the other guy who ninja'd me with exactly the same question - which was almost identically phrased - spooky!). The 'Veteran Upgrades' bit is a mistake (a leftover from earlier testing that should have been removed) and can be ignored. Pity - I was hoping it'd be something fun! Ah well.

Morden279 - October 11, 2012 06:29 PM (GMT)
@ Cloud Runner: Noserenda is right.

There are 4 Rites of War listed, each of which makes one's army specialised in a particular field, such as use of Armour, or Oribital Insertion, and so on. Each Rite comes with a rules/F.O. chart advantage and disadvantage. Think the Chapter Traits in the Marine Codex before last.

The Pride of the Legion Rite allows selection of Veteran Tac Squads as Troops choices. These squads contain a LOT more options, and in practical terms for gamers make the unit cross-compatible with regular Tac squads as seen in the vanilla Marine Codex.

However, a player can ONLY access Rites of War by having the higher of the two commander options (Praetor) as his army's HQ choice. The Praetor is the equivalent of a Lord Commander/Warsmith/First Captain, rather than Chapter Captain, who is the equivalent of the second, lower ranked HQ choice - the Centurion.

@ Ilmarinen: Point taken, I'll call them tomorrow after work - it's handy that they have the email, though, as it contains a pretty detailed description of the problem with the book.

Markus Krell - October 11, 2012 06:43 PM (GMT)
I've only read snipets of the book last night, but all in all I like it. The survivorists will enjoy the astartes profile sections on some of the loyalists' whereabouts... "unknown"!! I'm sure Shroud enjoyed that bit!!

It's nice to see mention of other new characters as well as the novel characters. The only downside is that not all of the characters from Isstvan III are mentioned, oh and the bit about Horus gifting the Laeran sword to Fulgrim, it was the Anathema (sp) sword that was gifted to Fulgrim.

Can't wait for book 2!!

ShroudFilm - October 11, 2012 07:32 PM (GMT)
The Tactical heavy/special weapon thing isn't a mistake, and to my mind is very flavour-ful with the novels.

Locasta Squad (to whom I expect you are referring) is a veteran squad, not a basic Tactical squad.

We have to stop thinking like 40k tournament gamers, and embrace the awesomeness of the new lists. It's definitely NOT intended for normal 40k play - the attrition rates are far too high.

Gagoc TheAncient - October 11, 2012 07:39 PM (GMT)
I too had a problem with the Legion Tactical Squads.
Mainly because someone at GD told me that I could just transfer over my Codex: SM units.

I believe this person explained it to me poorly for me to walk away thinking that.


It is the Praetor that has the Rites Of War options, but there are some interesting ones.


I thought the Warsmith-types were covered by the Centurion?

Yvraith - October 11, 2012 10:47 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Oct 12 2012, 05:32 AM)
The Tactical heavy/special weapon thing isn't a mistake, and to my mind is very flavour-ful with the novels.

Locasta Squad (to whom I expect you are referring) is a veteran squad, not a basic Tactical squad.

We have to stop thinking like 40k tournament gamers, and embrace the awesomeness of the new lists. It's definitely NOT intended for normal 40k play - the attrition rates are far too high.

This!

(I still want my damn book! Worldwide express shipping my @#&! :angry: )

Brother Handro - October 11, 2012 11:18 PM (GMT)
So these 4 Rites of War can be added to any of the Legions in the book (and the all the other legions if using the generic Legion army list)?

So you can therefore flavour your army list regardless of the Legion they represent?
(And probably commit grave sins against background by running the Armour rite with Raven Guard, or some such :lol: ).

I'm not a fan of the Legion Tactical squads, from a fluff perspective its great, but in practice it means I'll either have to always run the Vetern Tactical squads as Troops Rite or pull all my individual assault weapon troopers together to make a squad, whilst making up their numbers in the old squads with new models. Which'll leave me with hotch-potch support squads in random marks of armour, which kinda defeats the point of trying to stay true to the universe by running support squads! :rolleyes:

And Emperor help you if try to avoid that and want to make new support squads, and with the FW assault weapons...with my cynical hat on, that, and heavy weapon squads needing five FW missile launchers smacks of GW moneymaking to me... <_<



Pacific - October 12, 2012 07:47 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Oct 11 2012, 10:20 AM)
@Pacific - the basic Legion Tactical and Assault squads (troops) are 10 marines, and you can increase up to 20. The Legion Tactical Support Squad (non-compulsory troop choice) is 5-10 and the Legion Heavy Support Squad (heavy support!) is also 5-10 - they get the special or heavy weapon options (all the same weapon in the squad).

You don't attach the support squads to tactical squads, they operate on their own.

The Assault Squad has jump packs. There is no option to remove them, but the Tactical Squad can take an additional CCW/chainsword anyway.

OK thanks for that mate! user posted image

Brother Handro, there is nothing at all stopping you just getting 5 special weapons from any other source remember (either bits sites, or the official GW bits packs for that matter). Or 5 Rogue Trader missile launchers if you fancy some detective work! :)

Morden279 - October 12, 2012 11:05 AM (GMT)
@ Gagoc TheAncient: IIRC Warsmiths command Grand Companies, and would therefore hold an equivalent rank to Praetor. The Centurion->Techmarine character option would be more apt for a Master of the Forge in terms of prestige/position.

@ Brother Handro: I'm still not convinced about the fluffyness of all-bolter Tac Squads. There is opposing and corroborating evidence for the exclusion and inclusion of special/heavy weapons in the lit/artwork either way; the best policy for Forgeworld would have been to leave the *options* there to allow players to make their own choices. Indeed, a good middle ground would have been to make single special/heavy weapons choices have a 'for every 10 Astartes' clause. Consequently, a 20-strong Tac squad would have only 2 special/heavy weapons max. The result of which would be tactical flexibility (just how 'Tactical' is a bolter-only unit, anyway?), but also the massed small-arms fire capability expected of period Astartes formations.

@ Pacific: FW will almost certainly bring out full weapons and/or body sets for Support Squads. The sculpts already exist for Heavy Support Squad Marines as a precident. Additionally, it would be financial non-sense to force players to buy multiple special weapons sets just to get 5 plasma guns, etc - it would really put players of parting with any cash and attempting to field the unit. Or at least I!

Ilmarinen - October 12, 2012 11:59 AM (GMT)
@Pacific - update - you can swap the tac squad bolter for a ccw for no cost, or pay a little more to add the extra ccw. So you can have non-jump bp+ccw squads.

FW have already shown some heavy support squads (autocannon and HB) that they're going to release.

Personally, I'm puzzled why you'd want to keep the special and heavy weapons in a tac squad anyway. I've always found I end up only shooting one or the other, which seemed really inefficient. With a 20-man bolter-only squad (with the 6th ed changes to rapid fire) I know what I'm going to do with them: chuck out a large amount of anti-infantry fire.

Cloud Runner - October 12, 2012 12:44 PM (GMT)
Personally I'd love to have the option to throw in a couple of heavy bolters and plasma guns for a dedicated move n shoot unit daisy cutter unit.


So am I right in thinking that plasma weapons are in?

Brother Handro - October 12, 2012 12:57 PM (GMT)
@Pacific; Fair point! :)


@Morden; Good point, FW should have left it flexible for us to decide; there is so much up in the air, minutiae that we can't possibly know when it comes to the Legions, and whilst it's great the torch is being shined in this corner, I think they're being a little too prescriptive here. That said, they probably thought it would really bring a flavour to differentiate tactical squads from their 40k equivalent. That said, I agree, it's not very tactical is it?!

As for examples, there are the all-heavy and all-assault weapon squads in Collected Visions, and I seem to remember instances in several novels where heavy or assault weapons are 'called up' for specific reasons; a missile launcher as the Death Guard assault the moon base, and assault weapon(s?) during the trench fighting to crack a bunker during the first wave on Isstvan III.

Whether these troopers are just hanging around in squads waiting to lend a hand or not is up for debate...I suppose you could weasel your way around it and say specialist weapon troopers are detached from their unit and added to others as and when, but the Legion list represents their theoretical standing positions.

I hope the new heavy bolters and autocannon are released as packs of five; if so we might see the release of the individual assault weapons and the missile launcher in a similar manner. The original combined pack can be retained for those buying for 40k purposes. I can't see how this approach could go wrong. Whether FW take that option or not remains to be seen.....(and what do I know anyway? :lol: )

Can't wait for those tasty Volkite weapons either.

Did I hear that the Death Guard have a preference for 'rad' and 'chem' weapons?
Could some kind soul enlighten me as the whether these are new, specific weapons or just rule modifications for existing weapons, like flamers becoming chem-flamers, etc? Are the volkite weapons 'rad'? (Pun definately intended!).

Many thanks.


Vinnie - October 12, 2012 01:29 PM (GMT)
Destroyer Squads are a specific type of PH squad in HH:B that have access to rad grenades which aren't defensive or assault grenades but do have a negative effect on enemy units' toughness characteristic in combat. Destroyers can also have rad missiles that are kind of fraggy but with the toughness effect too, and Destroyer sergeants can have Phosphex bombs, which do nasty things to flesh and stick around wherever they land.

There is an HQ upgrade for the Centurion as well, called a Seige Breaker which can have Phosphex bombs, and he also gives Medusas in the same army Phosphex shells with which to reap a melty, horrifying toll.

Destroyers are a personal favourite of mine from the HH:B army list, as they give an original slant on veteran squads and offer up some awesome conversions opportunities because they're supposed to be all flame-blasted and chem-scarred, armour et al. It is said that some legions limit their use, or forgo them entirely, as they do not fit well with the honourable and noble ideals of the legion, but it seems that most legions have at least a small contingent, and certainly the Death Guard and I think I vaguely recall the Iron Warriors utilise them often to devastating effect.

Brother Handro - October 12, 2012 01:48 PM (GMT)
Aaah Destroyers, like that blackened World Eater pic?

Not sure I'd go with that much damage, but each to his own!

So there's nothing specific for the Death Guard in terms of options for this knid of stuff, it's just a fluff thing that you'd expect them to favour these kinds of weapons?

Thanks for your reply Vinnie! :)

Ilmarinen - October 12, 2012 02:03 PM (GMT)
Death Guard do have the option to have chem-munitions. Any flame weapon (from hand flamers to flamestorm cannons) can be upgraded to chem-flamers for no cost, and they gain Shred (re-roll failed to wound rolls) and Gets Hot.

If you take Mortarion, all frag grenades/missiles and havoc launchers become Poisoned (4+).

Seems to me that the chem-munitions are most effective on hand flamers and flamers (the weaker strength flamer weapons) as you get the most chance to re-roll failed wound rolls in exchange for Gets Hot. On vehicles I'm not sure it's that useful, as it has the possibility of stripping hull points.

Volkite weapons are not rad - they're ancient ray-guns! B)


Brother Handro - October 12, 2012 02:13 PM (GMT)
Aah so it is a question of rules modification!


Yep you're right, it would be more worth it on the lower-end weapons. Nice. If it's free I'd probably always take it, Gets Hot be damned. The Death Guard are willing to make any sacrifice to achieve victory! :lol:

Does Mortarion confer 'X become troops' options a la Horus? Such as the aforementioned Veteran Tactical Squads?

Ancient ray guns eh? Sounds pretty rad to me! :P

Thanks Il!

Morden279 - October 12, 2012 03:27 PM (GMT)
@ Ilmarinen: In the vanilla SM Codex, missile launchers and flamers are free upgrades. Consequently, it'd be silly not to take them as precautions against armour and hordes. Additionally, if the Tac squad moves or is out of template range, heavies and specials can still draw their bolt pistols and put fire downrange. The sacrifice of a couple of (bolter) bolt shells for versatile weaponry is a small price to pay. :)

Now here's the rub, and it comes down to cross-gaming system compatibility. Owing to the advantages of the above, many players have already or plan to model their PH/HH Tac squads on the Codex model. (More opponents are happy to play standard GW Codex armies as a matter of course.) As a result, players who want to use their vanilla squads with the new FW list have been left in a bind with the Legion Tac Squad's weapon limitatations. This issue can be subverted by Veteran Tac Squads via Rites of War, but it's an option that that has the unfortunate knock-on effect of ruling out taking another - perhaps more appropriate - Rite of War. It's a bit of a sacrifice to make.

@ Brother Handro: Agreed. I distinctly remember a passage in the second Dark Angels book in which 'the squad's melta gun was called up' to deal with a Traitor Leman Russ. Again, there's fluff either way on the issue, but FW have done the unwise thing of not leaving the choice there for players.

PS: That ray gun pun was abysmal. ;)

Pacific - October 12, 2012 04:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Oct 12 2012, 11:59 AM)
Personally, I'm puzzled why you'd want to keep the special and heavy weapons in a tac squad anyway. I've always found I end up only shooting one or the other, which seemed really inefficient. With a 20-man bolter-only squad (with the 6th ed changes to rapid fire) I know what I'm going to do with them: chuck out a large amount of anti-infantry fire.

Yes right, other than in a few individual cases (the free missile launcher, or using flamers/meltas as part of an assault orientated squad) it often makes more sense not to bother. I've always thought that the set-up is a hangover from 1st/2nd edition days when the rule mechanics worked differently for both bolters and heavy weapons, making the combination much more symbiotic than it is now. In any case, I think the FW system will probably work better with the way that the rules work, regardless of the reasons for it (presumably the Horus Heresy CCG art designations)

I think having mixed weapon types in a squad only works if you have a mechanic where you can split squads away from coherency (i.e. like Flames of War - the LMG/HMG stay back and cover the advance of the riflemen) or you have a more abstract system like Ambush Alley or something where you add a bunch more dice to your attack rolls if you have a special/support weapon in the squad.

Morden279 - If I use this book's lists, it should be fairly simple to sub out the special/heavy weapons out of the squads, and then just chuck a couple of boltgun guys in in their stead. Might just be a case of having to make a few more miniatures, at least for those of us who already have a reasonably sized force.

Vinnie - October 12, 2012 04:59 PM (GMT)
Oh yeah... forgot about some gribbly Death Guard stuff too :P Cheers Ilmarinen!

Personally the lack of weapon options for Tac squads doesn't bother me overmuch. I don't think FW wrote it that way to deliberately limit options to gamers. Afterall you can have 20 man assault squads, shield armed breacher squads, recon squads, and the alarming possibility of ten men armed with Volkite calivers, all as alternative troops choices, and more units besides if you have a Right of War that says so!!!

Thus, I don't think FW are trying to limit you but rather simply delineating and characterising the individual units more, which is nice and fluffy to me :P

Also, as regards to the game-system cross-over point... this is effectively an alternate codex. My Fleshtearers can't have frost axes because it's the wrong SM codex. Sad I know, but nevertheless, it's the game! Plus who doesn't have a spare handful of marines lying about? And if you don't, I'll mail you some :lol:

Noserenda - October 12, 2012 05:09 PM (GMT)
Yeah Forgeworld are giving you the choice, theres always the Vets, you get an extra Elite slot and the troops section is already packed with goodies... ;)

Fortronus - October 12, 2012 05:33 PM (GMT)
Glad to hear the book is worth it. Now to just try to round up the funds to get one !

Gagoc TheAncient - October 12, 2012 05:39 PM (GMT)
Funny you should mention 1st & 2nd Edition. I showed the Deflagrate rule to someone familiar with 2nd Ed.
He commented that it reminded him of that editions Melta-weapons.

Magos Explorator - October 12, 2012 08:27 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Vinnie @ Oct 12 2012, 08:29 AM)
Destroyers are a personal favourite of mine from the HH:B army list, as they give an original slant on veteran squads and offer up some awesome conversions opportunities because they're supposed to be all flame-blasted and chem-scarred, armour et al. It is said that some legions limit their use, or forgo them entirely, as they do not fit well with the honourable and noble ideals of the legion, but it seems that most legions have at least a small contingent, and certainly the Death Guard and I think I vaguely recall the Iron Warriors utilise them often to devastating effect.

There is a short story in the Games Day anthology this year, which centres around a Death Guard Chaplain and Destroyer squad.

Brother Handro - October 12, 2012 10:52 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Magos Explorator @ Oct 12 2012, 08:27 PM)
There is a short story in the Games Day anthology this year, which centres around a Death Guard Chaplain and Destroyer squad.

Magos, (or anyone with Betrayal if its explained there) does it by any chance explain the role of Death Guard chaplains, seeing as they weren't needed to oversee Librarians?

Just like Blood Angel Wardens, or something else?

Just out of interest!

Noserenda - October 12, 2012 11:34 PM (GMT)
He is mostly a modern Chaplain tbh, a bit shouty :D

Pacific - October 13, 2012 07:34 AM (GMT)
So is there any connection at all between the destroyers and the rampagers, pictured in this card?

user posted image

I had the idea a while ago, although never got round to it, of having a World Eater Berserker squad similar looking to these guys and represent them by using Death company with bolters (using the Blood Angels codex)

Ilmarinen - October 13, 2012 08:06 AM (GMT)
I figured they looked like Tartaros terminators with different helmets, going on the raised armour behind the head and the look of the shoulder pads.

Morden279 - October 13, 2012 12:24 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Brother Handro @ Oct 12 2012, 10:52 PM)
Magos, (or anyone with Betrayal if its explained there) does it by any chance explain the role of Death Guard chaplains, seeing as they weren't needed to oversee Librarians?

Just like Blood Angel Wardens, or something else?

Just out of interest!

I'll hazard that Pre-Heresy Chaplains performed a mirror role to their Post-Heresy counterparts, by perpetuating the Imperial Truth instead of the Imperial Cult and acting as secular moral rather than religious and spiritual councillors. Keeping weirdos in line was only one aspect of their duties. ;)

Question:

Going back to Vet Tac Squads, I'm becoming consigned to the prospect of painting up alternate models in order to best employ the unit with the FW list and its accompanying Veteran Tactics options (Fearless, Sniper, Furious Charge, Outflank, Tank Hunters).

Considering all the options for Vet Tac Squads, what are people's favoured loadouts and battlefield roles? I was thinking of a Melta Gun, Missile Launcher w/Suspensor Web* and Flakk Missiles, Sarg. Combi Melta, Melta Bombs, and Tank Hunters.

*This allows movement and firing, right? Conveniently, the print error in my copy of the book has removed the relevent rules page...

Ilmarinen - October 13, 2012 02:12 PM (GMT)
The suspensor web allows a heavy weapon to have an alternative fire mode as an assault weapon with half it's normal range.

Morden279 - October 13, 2012 02:49 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Oct 13 2012, 02:12 PM)
The suspensor web allows a heavy weapon to have an alternative fire mode as an assault weapon with half it's normal range.

Cheers matey, that sorts things for me, then. Means I'll only have to sort replacement special weapons. :)

ShroudFilm - October 13, 2012 11:59 PM (GMT)
This will blow your minds... Typhon was once a member of the Death Guard Librarius, even though he is from Barbarus.

Answers on a postcard. It is explained, although in trhee different places... and yes, that's deliberate. ;)




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