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The Great Crusade > Pre-Heresy Background Q&A > Alpharius?


Title: Alpharius?
Description: Was he found before...


Michaelangelos - August 11, 2012 12:05 AM (GMT)
Hey guys the upcoming audio drama that was announced a few days ago made me wonder, was Alpharius found before or after the lost legions became lost? I know that he was found later than the rest of the primarchs. Thanks, Mike

Carralak - August 11, 2012 01:08 AM (GMT)
if i'm thinking this is right then Alpharius was the last primarch to be found. if this is so then the lost legions were already lost seen as in Deliverance Lost there's a wonderfully heartwarming moment where Corax and the Emperor meet (awww). at this meeting the two missing primarchs are mentioned and the Emperor says something about it being a conversation for another day... so yeah afterwards...

Michaelangelos - August 11, 2012 08:04 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Carralak @ Aug 11 2012, 01:08 AM)
if i'm thinking this is right then Alpharius was the last primarch to be found. if this is so then the lost legions were already lost seen as in Deliverance Lost there's a wonderfully heartwarming moment where Corax and the Emperor meet (awww). at this meeting the two missing primarchs are mentioned and the Emperor says something about it being a conversation for another day... so yeah afterwards...

so even when corax was found the lost legions where lost?

Thanks Carralak, great help :D

Markus Krell - August 11, 2012 09:33 AM (GMT)
From what I've read, all 20 primarchs were found and knew each other, albeit only for a short time.

Corax couldn't understand why he was number 19, when there were only 18 brothers.
Alpharius was the last to be found (by Horus), but didn't spend much time with his brothers before joining the crusade; which is why there is trust issues between his legion and the others as they didn't get the chance to know him.
Some of the latter primarchs may have only met the missing primarchs once, so don't have a brotherly bond or maybe II & XI were found later than we first thought and know one really got to know them.

ShroudFilm - August 11, 2012 11:06 AM (GMT)
That's very interesting - I asked Gav and Graham a very similar question at the last HH meeting.

Corax is the nineteenth primarch, but he was only the eighteenth to be discovered.

We know that the twentieth to be discovered was Alpharius, and he was only returned to his Legion about 20 years before the end of the Crusade.

Therefore, there was ONE other primarch discovered between Corax and Alpharius.

We couldn't find any evidence as to who that might be. I'd welcome anything you guys can turn up. :D

Markus Krell - August 11, 2012 11:42 AM (GMT)
Hmm... can we assume that it would be a loyalist primarch, as the bulk of his legion would be Terrans and his influences would not drive them to treason, as they would if he had been in command for 100+ years and the majority of his men weren't Terrans, Ferrus Manus perhaps?

Contradicting the above point; what about Night Haunter? His legion didn't embrace chaos etc. at the beginning. Despite being vicious killers, they were loyal; they just became disheartened with the way the Imperium worked and Nostramo only descended into anarchy after NH left - and we all know what he did in the end. Not for killings sake, but a punishment!!
Now if NH had been around for longer than 50+ years would these issues not have appeared sooner?

I always imagine the Night Lords and Iron Hands to be small in size, so they do fit with being newly established - unless of course they're from a highly populated system (Ultra).

Carralak - August 11, 2012 01:16 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Aug 11 2012, 09:33 AM)
From what I've read, all 20 primarchs were found and knew each other, albeit only for a short time.

Corax couldn't understand why he was number 19, when there were only 18 brothers.
Alpharius was the last to be found (by Horus), but didn't spend much time with his brothers before joining the crusade; which is why there is trust issues between his legion and the others as they didn't get the chance to know him.
Some of the latter primarchs may have only met the missing primarchs once, so don't have a brotherly bond or maybe II & XI were found later than we first thought and know one really got to know them.

i'm not sure whether the other 2 brothers that the Emperor mentions means that they just hadn't been found when the Emperor arrived at Deliverance. i mean, when Corax asks about the two missing, the Emperor looks "bleak" and sorrowful, and said that it was a conversation for another day. which yeah could mean he just hadn't found them. but then a short way further into the conversation, he mentions that he has found most of the primarchs, so why doesn't he just tell Corax that the other two brothers haven't been found yet?

i'm gonna have to read through the whole HH series now just to double check everything i know about the missing primarchs :P

ShroudFilm - August 11, 2012 05:44 PM (GMT)
We got that, but then we know that Alpharius was the last so it would make sense that two just hadn't been found. He implies that they're both in the same situation, so it makes sense in that respect etc.

Maybe "I haven't found them yet" makes him seem fallible?

Michaelangelos - August 12, 2012 10:40 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Aug 11 2012, 05:44 PM)
We got that, but then we know that Alpharius was the last so it would make sense that two just hadn't been found. He implies that they're both in the same situation, so it makes sense in that respect etc.

Maybe "I haven't found them yet" makes him seem fallible?

well it was my understand from the Lightning Tower and Dark King that they had been found.


I mean in The First Heretic, they suggest when deciding Lorgar's fate with his legion if they are to be expunged or not they make reference I think that it has happened before? Plus in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns they make few references such as.

It says that brother has fought brother even BEFORE the heresy. So this tells me the space wolves might have took out at least 1 of the legions?

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 10:59 AM (GMT)
The Lightning Tower says that both episodes were separate tragedies and could have been warnings, so make of that what you will.
I would say that one legion must have been involved in fighting with one of the remaining legions; either in open rebellion or (like the Thousand Sons) in an attempt to survive the Emperor’s wrath.

I doubt that either of them dabbled in chaos as the Emperor would have been more alert to any of the other legions doing the same.
Mutation is probably a 'no' too, as the Thousand Sons were afflicted by this.

It would be interesting in the later novels to hear what some of the lesser primarchs have to say about the missing two; to gauge when they're were expunged.

My own take is that one primarch turned from the Emperor after seeing what the Imperium was becoming (genocide of millions for being different etc.) and the other primarch was killed by his own legion (with other loyalist legions wiping them out).

Anyway, who does Guilliman kill, Alpharius or Omegon? :ph43r:

Carralak - August 12, 2012 11:48 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Aug 12 2012, 10:59 AM)
Anyway, who does Guilliman kill, Alpharius or Omegon? :ph43r:

i reckon that Alpharius kills Omegon at some point during the heresy. recently they seem to have been drifting apart somewhat.

and on a side note, it's entirely possible that the lost legions weren't destroyed. the Word Bearers certainly seem to think that the astartes from the legions were drafted into the Ultramarines... and who is the Battle King?!

Ilmarinen - August 12, 2012 11:59 AM (GMT)
What do we know so far...

Horus - discovered first - considerably before the others.

Fulgrim - crusaded with Horus for some time.
Guilliman - long record of achievements during the GC.
Ferrus - good friends with Fulgrim, so unlikely to be discovered 2nd last.
Magnus - had enough time to 'solve' his Legion's problems, and build up a bad reputation.
Perturabo - long-running feud with Dorn, but may have been discovered after Dorn, starting his feelings of paranoia and inadequacy?
Dorn - chosen as the Emperor's Praetorian, so probably known for some time.
Sanguinius - good friends with Horus, so unlikely to have been discovered late.
Mortarion - the anvil in many of Horus' battle plans, so probably fighting together for some time.

2nd and 11th Primarchs - discovered early enough that they had already been dealt with and expunged before the end of the GC, in two separate incidents.
Russ - likely involved in the above events for at least one of the Lost Primarchs.

The Lion - long list of achievements, but how many of them were with the Lion present? With his reputation for tactical accumen, I doubt he's second last to be discovered though.

Incidentally, since the Dark Angels were the 1st Legion, wouldn't they have spent a long time fighting under the command of the Emperor and then Horus? We know many Legions were only founded shortly before their Primarch was found, but the DA were certainly around for quite some time before the Lion. Of the original Terran DA, some would have loyalty to the Emperor (pre-Horus discovery) and some to Horus (pre-Lion), so their loyalties are even more confused than I thought!

Ok, that leaves:
Vulkan, Kurze, Angron, Lorgar and The Khan.

I've not seen any mention of the Primarchs' relative ages, so presumably the warp did not scatter them in time, only in space, and they're all the same age?

Given Kurze's bitterness, I suspect he was on Nostramo for a long time, so he may have been discovered relatively late?

Vulkan had a small Legion, partly because of his homeworld, but also maybe because of late discovery?

Lorgar had enough time to participate in the GC really slowly, get censured, and then build up a long list of achievements and a huge Legion.

The Khan - currently little is known.

Angron - the Emperor just teleported him away from his homeworld, so was the Emperor being impatient? ...because the GC was well underway?

Incidentally, what happened to Angron's homeworld? Currently nothing is known about the aftermath, so was it destroyed by the Imperium (for imprisoning a Primarch) or did Angron return later for vengeance?

Corax - discovered 18th.

19th - ???

Alpharius - discovered 20th.

Based on what we know, I think Kurze, The Khan, Angron or Vulkan seem the likeliest Primarchs to be discovered 2nd last.

Carralak - August 12, 2012 12:13 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Aug 12 2012, 11:59 AM)
Based on what we know, I think Kurze, The Khan, Angron or Vulkan seem the likeliest Primarchs to be discovered 2nd last.

well apparently The Khan was only on his homeworld for 20 years before the emperor arrived so that could be fairly late on depending on how soon the other primarchs were found...

Ilmarinen - August 12, 2012 12:56 PM (GMT)
On second thoughts, regarding Kurze - the Night Lords had enough time to have their ranks filled with all the evil scum of Nostramo (gone bad after Kurze's departure). Accounting for attrition rates, they would have had to be fighting in the GC for quite some time to turn-over most of the Legion.


Regarding the transgressions of the Lost Primarchs (and bearing in mind the 'separate tragedies' and 'should have been seen as warnings' references):

Sorcery - I agree this is unlikely, or the Emperor would have been more vigilant, and Magnus more careful.

Mutation - unlikely, or Magnus' fix for his Legion would have raised more questions (if a Legion had already succumbed completely).

Cellular degradation - this is an interesting possibility. We know the Emperor's work was not perfect (there are plenty of Legions with problems) so maybe one of the Lost Legions drew the really short straw and suffered irreversible problems? (Gene-seed failure?). The Emperor would certainly not want people talking about how he had messed up so badly.

Alliance with Xenos - did a Lost Primarch ally with (or was raised by) a Xenos race? This would certainly be against the doctrines of the Imperium. We know the Lost Primarchs were part of the Imperium long enough to meet (most of or all?) of their brothers, and to get statues on Terra, so refusal to join the Imperium is not an issue. However, if a Lost Primarch rebelled against commands...? If he had been discovered by the Emperor at a point where the Imperium would not have come into contact with his Xenos allies, then he could have joined the Imperium and then started saying how great his alien friends were. The Emperor would have sanctioned him, then later the Imperium comes into contact with the Xenos and attacks them. Either the Lost Primarch is ordered to attack and refuses, or tries to stop another Legion from attacking the Xenos (although this would break the no marine-vs-marine fighting prior to the Heresy, unless it was just the Wolves). He might even try to stop his own Legion from attacking (see below). Or perhaps the Primarch assists the Xenos in escaping, and then makes a run for it. He is hunted down and his Legion is viewed as untrustworthy.

Mutiny - for some reason, the Primarch and his Legion disagree. Either the Primarch is killed by his own marines and the Legion is then taken out by the Wolves, or the Primarch slaughters his own marines for some reason (this scenario seems unlikely, given the shock felt by the loyalists at the Istvaan III betrayal).

Pacifism - I like Markus Krell's idea that a Lost Primarch refuses to accept the Imperial doctrines. Having being raised by hippie-peaceniks, the Primarch instructs his Legion in pacifism (and tie-died robes!). His once-honoured Legion becomes completely ineffective.

Druggies - the Primarch and his Legion are hooked on a potent intoxicant and are too unpredictable!

Alien enslavement - if a Primarch (and Legion?) were attacked by Enslavers (or Genestealers?!) then he/they would have to be eliminated. They would not be seen as fellow marines at that point, so would not engender the same feelings of marine-fighting-marine.

Last stand - the Primarch and (most or all of?) his Legion take on impossible odds and are wiped out. Either the Primarch is a poor tactician, or too stubborn to make a tactical retreat, or is somehow overwhelmed. The Emperor expunges their record to hide their failure and maintain the illusion of the infallibility of the Legions.

Of course, a combination of various of these ideas is possible.

I still think that the 'rumours' in The First Heretic are not impossible. Hiding the remnants of a Lost Legion in the Ultramarines (already a large Legion where no-one can know everyone) is not a bad idea. I've mentioned before the idea that Guilliman may have written the Codex Astartes for more than just Imperium Secundus - he may have already been writing a field guide to warfare, to try and integrate the Lost remnants into his own troops more effectively.

Carralak - August 12, 2012 01:17 PM (GMT)
in regards to cellular degradation, i don't think it would be likely as it's hinted at in the Night Lords books by ADB that Kurze may have suffered from problems due to gene seed rejection himself and these problems were mirrored in Talos.
also, you've got to think that whatever happened to the lost legions was worthy of them being stricken from all records and even the other primarchs are pretty forbidden from talking about them. i doubt things such as cellular degradation and pacifism would cause the Emperor to eliminate them from history.
also whatever happened must, in a sense, be worse than being declared traitors and heretics like the legions that turned during the heresy, because at least they are remembered, even if it is more in legends and myths.

Pacific - August 12, 2012 01:48 PM (GMT)
Interesting write-up Ilmarinen, I enjoyed reading it. I think as you say that there is enough evidence that both missing Primarchs were found, and united with their respective legions.

It's interesting that I think when the 'lost legions' were first mentioned, in the 2nd edition codex Imperialis book (I believe that was the first time?), and there was an attempt to make the Astartes appear more Roman Legionary-esque in nature, I believe the implication (although never explicitly mentioned) was obvious; that the Legion had been destroyed by external forces. This was a direct reference to the Roman Empire, when two of their legions were destroyed (or 'disappeared') by the barbarians in Germania. Better the public think their armies are unbeatable.

This is also supported to an extent by the events in Horus Rising, where we learn that the Emperor's Children suffered some 'calamity' early on, were very nearly destroyed, and had to fight alongside the Luna Wolves for some time after. Obviously the legions would have taken some time to grow, and you can make a very long list of the potential things that could have destroyed them; be it aliens, some hyper-technology human descendants, even a warp mishap.

So, with that in mind I've always thought that the 'destroyed legion' perhaps could have applied to one of them.
For the other, there are loads and loads of little pointers, from different authors and throughout the series, about what might have happened. We have used the phrase 'ultimate sanction' being used describing them, and it was something so bad that the surviving brothers are forbidden from speaking of it. Dan Abnett practically re-invented the Space Wolves as 'the rout', a force that had the potential to bring down other Astartes - both in Prospero Burns, and his comments about the book. There is a lot of implication I think that 'Space Wolves' is what happened to at least one of the lost legions.. :D



Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 02:22 PM (GMT)
Whatever befell the legions happened in the last third of the GC; maybe the Emperor's Children and one of the lost were attacked and virtually wiped out during a campaign - which could explain why a lot of the ECs were dealt a ‘calamitous blow’. The Emperor blamed lost primarch and as there were not enough survivors expunged the legion. He may have executed the primarch, imprisoned him or the primarch was slain in battle?

Regarding the Space Wolves, I’m not 100% convinced that they took on a whole legion by themselves. Half a legion, possibly, so the whole ‘legion civil war’ must have happened – but which one?!!!
Maybe they fought with a second legion, World Eaters or Night Lords; they seem to be cut from the same cloth?

There is also mention, maybe by Dorn (but I can’t remember where) that Malcador had access to some form of armed force. Could this be imprisoned astartes from one or both of the lost legions? Malcador immediately dismissed it; but at the end of the HH out the two of them, who is alive to decide what to do with them? :ph43r:

adamwelton - August 12, 2012 02:28 PM (GMT)
I would like to postulate the idea that the Emperor found the two "other" Primarchs but they were terribly mutated and as a result had to be destroyed. The legions they were destined to lead had been enhanced/created from their DNA, and even though the Emperor knew that the two had been tainted by the Warp after being snatched from Terra, he couldn't impart this to anyone but the Sigillite so they too had to be destroyed, probably at the insistence of Russ who would have been happy to carry out the sentence.

One legion was exterminated wholesale by Russ and his crowd, but the Emperor changed his mind about the other (knowing they weren't tainted and seeing the wastage as unnecessary) and after mindwiping them had them distributed amongst the other legions present. This I reckon may explain why some of the legions whose Primarchs were found earlier were larger than others.

Just an idea mind you, based on my interpretation of what I've read so far. Given how vague GW are being with all of the fluff, I think we're doing a good job of sifting the crap from the gold, and we're doing it without falling out. That is quite unusual for a GW subject, but it goes to show the determination of fans such as we. Great stuff everyone. My faith in GW fans is upheld!

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 02:52 PM (GMT)
I like the mind-wipe part; I never considered that as a possibility for the survivors.

Does anyone else think that Shroud is sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat while looking at his PC monitor and chuckling to himself at all of our suggestions?!! :D

Maybe one of the lost primarchs wanted to be part of a rock band or go travelling around the galaxy to find himself?! The big E wasn't keen on that, so bye-bye legion!!

Michaelangelos - August 12, 2012 03:44 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Aug 12 2012, 12:56 PM)
Alliance with Xenos - did a Lost Primarch ally with (or was raised by) a Xenos race? This would certainly be against the doctrines of the Imperium. We know the Lost Primarchs were part of the Imperium long enough to meet (most of or all?) of their brothers, and to get statues on Terra, so refusal to join the Imperium is not an issue. However, if a Lost Primarch rebelled against commands...? If he had been discovered by the Emperor at a point where the Imperium would not have come into contact with his Xenos allies, then he could have joined the Imperium and then started saying how great his alien friends were. The Emperor would have sanctioned him, then later the Imperium comes into contact with the Xenos and attacks them. Either the Lost Primarch is ordered to attack and refuses, or tries to stop another Legion from attacking the Xenos (although this would break the no marine-vs-marine fighting prior to the Heresy, unless it was just the Wolves). He might even try to stop his own Legion from attacking (see below). Or perhaps the Primarch assists the Xenos in escaping, and then makes a run for it. He is hunted down and his Legion is viewed as untrustworthy.

Mutiny - for some reason, the Primarch and his Legion disagree. Either the Primarch is killed by his own marines and the Legion is then taken out by the Wolves, or the Primarch slaughters his own marines for some reason (this scenario seems unlikely, given the shock felt by the loyalists at the Istvaan III betrayal).



Mind if I use some of this for my own legion? :D

ShroudFilm - August 12, 2012 04:02 PM (GMT)
Horus was found three years into the Great Crusade, and the events of 'Horus Rising' take place 203 years in. That gives 180 years of finding primarchs, with Alpharius being the last, twenty years before 'HR'.

Dorn was seventh.

It has been stated that all twenty were found and restored to their Legions, and that all the primarchs knew each other or had met. My comment about there being two as-yet unfound when Corax asked, was that they were still missing Alpharius and another. One of them may have been the 2nd or 11th. We don't know, at this stage.

QUOTE (Ilmarinen)
Alliance with Xenos - did a Lost Primarch ally with (or was raised by) a Xenos race? This would certainly be against the doctrines of the Imperium.

Doesn't hold water. Mortarion was raised BY an alien overlord (and a remarkably unpleasant one at that, by all accounts!) but he wasn't rejected by the Emperor out of hand.

QUOTE (Carralak)
well apparently The Khan was only on his homeworld for 20 years before the emperor arrived so that could be fairly late on depending on how soon the other primarchs were found...

No, he was IN CHARGE of his homeworld for twenty years. He fought a LONG war before that... ;)

QUOTE (Markus Krell)
Does anyone else think that Shroud is sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat while looking at his PC monitor and chuckling to himself at all of our suggestions?!!

It's a Mac, actually... :lol:

Carralak - August 12, 2012 04:02 PM (GMT)
with all these theories about the lost legions it's just going to turn out they and their legions died of old age... just wait and see...

Gagoc TheAncient - August 12, 2012 05:00 PM (GMT)
Personally, I always felt that one of these Lost Legions did something really brave/stupid and got themselves wiped out for it. Well maybe except for a few survivors.

Stupid like going into the Ghoul Stars en-masse whilst not being fully prepared.
Even in the 41st Millennium the Imperium tends to avoid the Ghoul Stars!

Ilmarinen - August 12, 2012 05:32 PM (GMT)
@adamwelton - welcome to TGC! :)

Regarding the 2 Lost Primarchs, as Shroud has confirmed, they were all found and took charge of their Legions (for a time). If they had been horribly mutated (beyond having wings!!!) then I doubt they'd have had statues, as mentioned in The Lightning Tower.

@Michaelangelos - feel free. :)

QUOTE
Doesn't hold water. Mortarion was raised BY an alien overlord (and a remarkably unpleasant one at that, by all accounts!) but he wasn't rejected by the Emperor out of hand.

No, I mean if a Primarch was allied to Xenos. Mortarion was raised by an alien overlord, but he rebelled and sided with the humans.

It's a bit of a stretch, but if a Primarch had had close contact with an alien race that they came to respect, was then found by the Imperium (without said xenos around) but later on the Imperium ran into the xenos and started their usual campaign of anti-xenos genocide... Granted, this would be rather convoluted! A more plausible possibility would be if a Primarch/Legion was visited by friendly xenos and was then influenced by them. If the Emperor found out, I doubt he'd be happy. ...I'm picturing some kind of dark jawa! Oh wait! :blink: :P

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 05:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
If they had been horribly mutated (beyond having wings!!!) then I doubt they'd have had statues


Or was a red giant of varying size, depending on his mood!! :D

What if the xenos didn't influence the primarch/legion, but were just nice people and not warmongering, like orks etc.
What if they wanted to join the Imperium, but Imperial Edict said 'no' and the Imperial Army/Navy tried to destroy them. Would a superhuman being allow such a thing to happen?
The legion either destroyed the Imperial Army/Navy or rescued the xenos and were then hunted down by his brother legions.

Getting back to topic... could Alpharius/Omegon (the evil one) have tricked/infiltrated one of the lost legions and caused their downfall? The Alpha Legion were jealous of the other 19 and tried to surpass their achievements. Maybe taking out one of your closest rivals and taking their place/expeditions was a way to achieve this... probably not though, but stranger things have happened.

Michaelangelos - August 12, 2012 06:27 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Aug 12 2012, 05:58 PM)
Getting back to topic... could Alpharius/Omegon (the evil one) have tricked/infiltrated one of the lost legions and caused their downfall? The Alpha Legion were jealous of the other 19 and tried to surpass their achievements. Maybe taking out one of your closest rivals and taking their place/expeditions was a way to achieve this... probably not though, but stranger things have happened.

Well it was my understanding that the Alpha legion wasnt THAT bad. It proved it in legion when Alpharius knew what he had to do, he basically sold his soul. For the Emperor, his father.

BUT. If Omegan is evil then maybe, in my opinion it would be goo for them to have a civil war between them 2

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 06:37 PM (GMT)
The good thing about the Alpha Legion is you don't know anything... you think you know and then something wicked happens to throw everything out of the window. You could have a split legion, but who knows who is loyal in the respective camps?!!

Was it Alpharius or Omegon who was "Alpharius" talking to the cabal? Dan Abnett turned a mediocre legion into something of substance and epicness in one book. Now people want to play Alphas in WH40K.

Michaelangelos - August 12, 2012 07:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Aug 12 2012, 06:37 PM)
The good thing about the Alpha Legion is you don't know anything... you think you know and then something wicked happens to throw everything out of the window. You could have a split legion, but who knows who is loyal in the respective camps?!!

Was it Alpharius or Omegon who was "Alpharius" talking to the cabal? Dan Abnett turned a mediocre legion into something of substance and epicness in one book. Now people want to play Alphas in WH40K.

I think Alpharius is the good faction if so :P just my opinion

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 07:40 PM (GMT)
For all intents and purposes, Alpharius is a loyalist, but don't be surprised to see that change somehow...

DELIVERANCE LOST SPOILER

How many Alpharius's did you think that there were in the that book, when it said Alpharius?

SPOILER END

I like his ruthlessness too, means to an end and all that.

Michaelangelos - August 12, 2012 08:04 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Aug 12 2012, 07:40 PM)
For all intents and purposes, Alpharius is a loyalist, but don't be surprised to see that change somehow...

DELIVERANCE LOST SPOILER

How many Alpharius's did you think that there were in the that book, when it said Alpharius?

SPOILER END

I like his ruthlessness too, means to an end and all that.

to be honest mate I havnt read it :(

BUT I am going to start reading it next week

Markus Krell - August 12, 2012 08:34 PM (GMT)
Hopefully you'll enjoy it, lots of twists and turns. Well writen by Gav Thorpe.

Pacific - August 13, 2012 08:40 AM (GMT)
Yes it's a good book, well worth a read! I thought the main characters in it are pretty interesting (you have a kind of frank, on the ground viewpoint despite all these massive events happening around them) and the story fits in pretty well with what we know so far, with the odd quite cool snippet added to it.

I'd say definitely a must for anyone with an interest in the Raven Guard, as you have some info on Corax's time before the coming of the Emperor, and there is one sequence in the middle of the book (without giving anything away.. I'll just say 'Indiana Jones' ^_^) that is tremendously good fun.

ShroudFilm - August 14, 2012 04:55 PM (GMT)
:blink:

How can people have opinions on these things if they haven't read the books...?

That's like me saying "I'm an expert on nuclear fusion, though I have yet to read any of the literature..."

Vinnie - August 14, 2012 05:53 PM (GMT)
Calm, Laurie, calm! -waves fan at Laurie's face-

People are allowed opinions dude, it just so happens they haven't caught all the way up yet, which is why discussions like these are great, exchanging facts and details variously missed or picked up on by several people. It all just adds to the enjoyment and intrigue!

I know for a fact there were a fair few things I missed when I read some of the books first time, but exploring possibilities on TGC meant the reread was all the more enjoyable :)

Plus, if we all knew HH lore as well as you do, it would be kinda boring...

"Hey guys, y'know that bit when-"
"Yep."
"That means that-"
"Mmhm."
"So eventually that character will-"
"Totes."
"... ah, good. That's that then."

ShroudFilm - August 14, 2012 11:14 PM (GMT)
NO. Overruled.

user posted image

Carralak - August 15, 2012 12:06 AM (GMT)
is there actually literature on nuclear fusion?

and if all GWs are like my local one then most people won't have to read the books to get what's going on in them... that and we all pass opinions on... ah freedom...

however, that is an awesome cat. and i must acknowledge the cat

Markus Krell - August 15, 2012 07:54 AM (GMT)
That cat looks disgusted with something, maybe its seen a dog drinking from the toilet bowl?!!

New thread everyone... which animal would you assign to the HH characters!!
Angron: Staffordshire Bull Terrier!! :D

Carralak - August 15, 2012 08:36 AM (GMT)
isn't it going to be pretty obvious with some of the primarchs though? i mean Corax, Vulkan, and Russ are going to be pretty obvious which animals to pick...

Markus Krell - August 15, 2012 10:33 AM (GMT)
Spoilsport!! :)

Fulgrim = peacock?

Anyway my servers have crashed at work, so I'm killing time!!

Michaelangelos - August 15, 2012 06:12 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Aug 14 2012, 04:55 PM)
:blink:

How can people have opinions on these things if they haven't read the books...?

That's like me saying "I'm an expert on nuclear fusion, though I have yet to read any of the literature..."

you on about mee?





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