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The Great Crusade > Pre-Heresy Background Q&A > Unification War Regiments

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Title: Unification War Regiments


Pacific - May 2, 2012 01:28 PM (GMT)
Hey guys,

Just toying around with the idea of starting something new, specifically some Unification-era proto-Astartes regiments.

I had got some info from this thread (Unification era thread), regarding what the marines actually were, and since then we have had 'The Outcast Dead' which was extremely enlightening.

Now one of the main reasons for my wanting to try something like this is that there is less known about them. With the FW kits available now for all of the different armour marks, and them even starting to appear in casual 40k player's armies, I wanted to do something again that is less common and that will allow me to try something a bit more wacky in terms of modelling and painting.

Having said that, do we have any more info on Unification-era names and colour schemes? Obviously the Legions themselves would have had their old names in some cases - be it the Dusk Raiders, War Hounds & Luna Wolves etc. But, just wondered if anyone had picked up something I had missed regarding a specific colour scheme or marking?

My only stipulation for this project is that they are not white, after finishing my WE the thought of doing another army in that colour makes my blood turn cold :D (although I realise that limits the options severely!)

Of course, that this is an era that might not ever be significantly documented in the Heresy book series means that there is a bit more room for individual input here, so if anyone had any cool ideas about any of the above I would happy to hear them!

ShroudFilm - May 2, 2012 04:00 PM (GMT)
I think I recall that the regiments all wore the same colour armour, and it was only their heraldry that changed?

Silver/iron armour, with horsehair plumes etc, and banners with battle honours and so forth.

malika - May 2, 2012 05:14 PM (GMT)
Didn't the Duskraiders have a single arm that was crimson red?

I'm not so sure about all of the regiments being the same colour. I guess that's a bit debatable at the moment.

Pacific - May 2, 2012 06:33 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the replies guys.

OK, so the colours came after the Legions were formed (and the Great Crusade began?)

Anyone have any info on a Blood Angels, and specifically whether or not they had a name change? I read somewhere (I can't remember where, perhaps the BA codex?) that the 'Legion was made' when the Crusade moved to Baal, or some such like?

It does seem mildly paradoxical that they would have been named as such prior to the discovery of Sanguinius - although I'm still not clear whether or not the traits of each Primarch were manifest in each Legion prior to the discovery of their Primarch. Although even if that were the case, that still doesn't explain the unlikely coincidence of someone like Russ (with enlarged canines) landing amongst 'wolves' on Fenris, Konrad Kurze on Nocturne etc.

Perhaps something in the Primarch's genetic engineering that made them adapt to the world that they had landed on as they grew?

ShroudFilm - May 2, 2012 06:51 PM (GMT)
Thunder Regiments aren't the Legions... that's the difference! ;)

There would likely have been more than twenty regiments. The only descriptions we've had of the regiments show them as plain-armoured barbarians.

I feel another argument-winning product commissioning coming on... :lol:

Apologist - May 2, 2012 09:32 PM (GMT)
A perfect opportunity to make a Legio II or XI that doesn't make people involuntarily twitch... ;)

There's not a huge amount of information on the period, but what little we have should leave a great deal open for wonderful creativity!

Unification War Legion Names
Explicitly mentioned:
Dusk Raiders later became Death Guard (Flight of the Eisenstein).
Warhounds later became World Eaters (After Desh'ea).
Imperial Heralds later became Word Bearers (The First Heretic)
Thousand Sons were always the Thousand Sons (A Thousand Sons)
Raven Guard were called the Raven Guard prior to reuniting with Corax (Deliverance Lost)

Implicitly mentioned:
The Dark Angels are referred to as the 'First Legion'; whether this is an honorific or simply a description is arguable.

What can we conclude from this? Given that at least five of the Legions had names, it's reasonable to suppose that the remainder may well have too. Equally, some may have simply been referred to by number – you'll need to make a decision yourself.

If you do run with creating new names, then it's worth noting that the Thousand Sons are mentioned to be named so in wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey consultation with Magnus himself, and that Magnus was unusual (likely unique) in this role, explaining the rather unlikely coincidence of the name.

With this in mind, some of the names are rather more likely to have been changed after reuniting the Legion with its Primarch:

Blood Angels – named after the tribe of the Blood (Index Astartes Blood Angels), this name is almost certain not to have been in use pre-Baal. Given the effect of the Primarch's geneseed on the Astartes' appearance, the word Angel might still have been used (Emperor's Angels, Imperial Angels etc); though I'd suspect such a religious term would have been rather derisive under the Imperial Truth, so I'd personally steer clear entirely.

Dark Angels – similarly, the word angel might have been sniffed at; and we already have an implied title of First Legion. However, this could easily go either way.

Emperor's Children – No reason this couldn't have been a permanent name. Given the history of the Legion (the disaster that marred their early years and necessitated their auxiliary function to the Luna Wolves), I could see them being ribbed by the XVII as favoured, or pampered – the Emperor's favoured children...

Luna Wolves – Fairly likely to have been the Legion's original name, given the reluctance to change, the reference to Luna (I can't really think of a better explanation than this being a reference to Earth's Moon).

Ultramarines – It's unclear whether Ultramar is named after the Ultramarines, or the other way around. Since the word has connotations of Crusaders ('Outremar' lit. 'over the sea' was the term used for the Mediaeval Crusaders), it may have been the original name. Personally, I like the idea that Legio XIII were named 'Ultramarines' after coming through the 'Sea of Souls' to Macragge, and that they had another name. 'Warrior Kings' is a cool name, and it fits with established canon – they became the 'Warrior Kings of Ultramar' The First Heretic, and then Ultramarines.

Imperial Fists – No particular reason to suppose this was changed, given Dorn's no nonsense, obedient attitude. Since it ties into the Imperial Heralds naming scheme too, I'd be inclined to say this is likely to be a Unification Wars name; which would tally with the Roma battle honour mentioned as the first of the Fists' battle honours.

White Scars – Could go either way; but barring retcon/adaptation, more likely to be a post-Unification name, as the scarification is referenced to be a practice of the plains tribes.

Alpha Legion – I'd be tempted to say this was a Unification era name, as 'the' Primarch was hardly a self-glorifying type. Most likely 'he' simply didn't change it.

Iron Hands/Salamanders – Like the Blood Angels, these really don't make much sense unless you know specifics of the Primarch/planet.

Iron Warriors – Generic enough to be a Unification-era name, with no particular relevance to Perturabo.

Space Wolves – Given they don't call themselves this, but bearing in mind that 'there are no wolves on Fenris', it sounds to me that this may well be a Unification era name from which they tried to distance themselves. It is similar enough to the Luna Wolves to be appropriate. Equally, perhaps Space Wolves became their title after the implied sanctioning – a subtly disrespectful title of a ruthless Legion?

Night Lords – Could go either way. Ties in a little too neatly to Kurze, but it does have a nice resonance with the Dusk Raiders, don't you think?

+++
Here's my fantasy Legion line-up:
1 The First Legion (Black)
2 Solar Guard (Gold)
3 Emperor's Children (Purple)
4 Iron Warriors (Silver)
5 White Stars (White)
6 Space Wolves (Grey)
7 Imperial Fists (Gold)
8 Night Lords (Blue)
9 Morningstars (White)
10 Stormbreakers (Black)
11 Thunder Lords (Purple and turquoise quartered)
12 Warhounds (White with blue shoulder pads)
13 Warrior Kings (Blue)
14 Dusk Raiders (White with red arm)
15 Thousand Sons (Red)
16 Luna Wolves (Grey)
17 Imperial Heralds (Gold)
18 Emperor's Hammers (Red)
19 Raven Guard (Black)
20 Alpha Legion (Purple)

...but that's pure geek indulgence on my part ;)

++++++

Unification-era Regiments
Re: non-Astartes regiments, I'd assumed that there were many Thunder Warrior regiments that were relatively unstable – the Astartes being the result of continuing experimentation upon subjects, improved with the help of the Primarch project offshoots.

As such, I'd imagine the Thunder Warriors' formations would have simply been numbered, and as Shroud says, simply armed and armoured with undecorated weaponry. The Emperor presumably knew they were a stop-gap measure, fit for purpose; and the ethos of the era was very much technobarbarian. I don't see the Thunder Warriors as orderly, well-drilled or tightly-organised compared to the Legions – in fact, it's as roaming, faceless and merciless monsters, steaming in the mist; clad in steel and grimy furs and leathers that they appear in my mind's eye.

The Astartes were a perfected army for Crusade: propaganda and morale-boosters. They must have been and intended to awe the human diaspora and bring humanity together. In contrast, the Thunder Warriors were brutes – smashing the Terran barbarians to the floor and then grinding their faces under their boots in a wave of sweat, blood and piss: a brutal force for a more brutal and more desperate time.

Anyway, getting rather carried away there(!). So, there's my speculation. Hope it helps.

Pacific - May 2, 2012 09:50 PM (GMT)
Wow, what a post Apologist! :)

It made very interesting reading. I concur entirely concerning how you view the proto-Astartes, and in fact had something similar in mind in terms of how I would model them; lots of metal plate, rather more primitive looking than the Astartes armour, and horrific-looking close combat weapons, powerful short range weaponry and clad in fur cloaks etc.

Incidentally, is there any reason you thought the War Hounds would be red?



Apologist - May 2, 2012 10:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Pacific @ May 2 2012, 09:50 PM)
Incidentally, is there any reason you thought the War Hounds would be red?

Because I'm a numpty – got the Morningstars mixed up with the Space Wolves, too. :lol:

Weaponry of the Unification war
The boltgun was the signature weapon of the Thunder Warriors; though whether it was simply the bolt ammunition used in modified autoguns – or the manufacturing base was sufficient to produce a dedicated 'pattern' – is debatable.

From the descriptions of Thunder Armour, it's clear that much, if not most, of the fighting in which it involved was infantry-based and very much predicated on upper body strength. I'd hazard a guess that the Thunder Armour used by the Astartes was inspired by the armour used by the Thunder Warriors – merely tidied up, refined and standardised. After all, it was used on Terra by the Astartes, and replaced in short order once off-planet fighting was necessary and the Great Crusade kicked off.

Given the close-quarter, low-tech and ferocious nature of the Unification Wars, I think close-in stabbing weaponry would be common, and I'd like to think that it was the Unification Wars that inspired the development and popularisation of chain weaponry. I've never been that convinced by descriptions of chainswords being used to parry and fence – I imagine their use was simply an excellent relatively low-tech way to visit 'shock and awe' on easily-terrified enemies – the teeth would make a horrendous mess taht would unman most victims' allies. Equally, it would enable a well-armoured warrior to overcome an equally or better armoured opponent – simply lean in, trusting your armour is mostly impervious to their weaponry, and the teeth will shred their way through exposed cables, depowering an opponent; or better still, snagging, unbalancing and dragging them to the floor, where they're exposed and easy meat for your allies. Basically, no need to grind through armour – simply swing and use your power armour-enhanced strength to hold your arm steady while they're dragged to the floor.

Ilmarinen - May 2, 2012 10:25 PM (GMT)
There are still several aspects of the early Great Crusade that are unclear (at least to me!).

What was the relation between the Thunder Regiments and the Legions? Was there a period of crossover, and how rapidly did the handover occur? Were the names carried over, or did the Legions get brand new names?

What was the order and timing of each Legion's founding, and how did this compare to the finding of their Primarchs? The old fluff mentions that some Legions were founded only just before their Primarch was discovered, whereas the fluff also mentions other Legions having to wait a long time to be united with their liege lord.

Did all of the Legions fight on Terra prior to the GC, or were the later founded Legions established only to immediately depart on the Great Crusade?

What armour mark did each Legion start with? Did some of them start with Mk1? Or was that already obsolete by the time the space marines were created? Did the later Legions start with newer armour marks - eg: did the Alpha Legion start with Mk4?

C:SM has a picture of all the armour marks in Ultramarine colours (including Mk1) but this may be poetic licence?

lord_caldera - May 3, 2012 12:19 AM (GMT)
I haven't read this in a while and I don't have my book on me, but isn't there a reference in "Tales of Heresy" (maybe in Scions of the Storm?) where the ninth legion is referred to as angels of blood by their victims?

Noserenda - May 3, 2012 09:39 AM (GMT)
Awesome as ever Apologist :)

As an idea it might be worth looking at the Second Founding Chapters names for ideas, they all came from somewhere, perhaps the Original legion name? Ofc theres no way to verify so far as only traitors have had their old names revealed!

Apologist - May 3, 2012 10:11 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
What was the relation between the Thunder Regiments and the Legions? Was there a period of crossover, and how rapidly did the handover occur? Were the names carried over, or did the Legions get brand new names?


TIMELINE
As far as I understand it, and based largely on hints from WD129, Legion and The Outcast Dead, the background for the events of Terra currently run as follows:

~M25:
• Age of Strife isolates the Sol system from the rest of humanity. The Emperor begins his plans for the Great Crusade in secret.

M25–M27:
• War rages across the Sol system, between (and on) the principal planets (and planetary bodies, as Luna is mentioned).
• Mars and Terra (at least) are ravaged by nuclear, biological and chemical warfare.

Late M27–M29:
• Central government of Terra reduced to warring states led by Warlords.
• Appearance of the Emperor, along with the first genetically-enhanced soldiers (the proto Imperial Army), later to become the Old Hundred. At some point, the Emperor must have got to Luna, as he has laboratories there.
• Development of the Thunder Warriors – possibly the logical next stage of the geno-soldiers. Something is wrong with the Thunder Warriors; they are somehow unstable.
• Battle of Mount Ararat – possibly apocryphal last battle of the Unification Wars, at which the Thunder Warriors are supposedly all slain. The Emperor conquers Terra and Luna. End of the Unification Wars.
• Primarch project begun. Final Thunder Warriors 'disappear'.
• Primarchs scattered. The Emperor uses the research to develop the Legio Astartes and Custodes (I speculate as a development/combination of the Geno/Thunder Warrior research with the results of the Primarch project).

M30:
• Treaty of Mars/Treaty of Olympus binds Terra to the Mechanicum of Mars, creating the Imperium proper.
• Start of the Great Crusade. Astartes conquer the Sol system.

Armour
Recent years have seen clarification and development of the very vague background mentioned in WD129; and a great deal of this is the clear distinction now made between the Thunder Warriors and the Astartes. As such, the Thunder Warriors may represent the ultimate refinement possible on humans without the (presumably stabilising) information gleaned from the Primarch project – which would explain why Babu Dhakal was so keen to get hold of Astartes geneseed.

I'm inclined to think that Crusade Armour (Mark II) was the first armour that the Astartes were issued en masse. While some (see later notes about order of the Legions' creation, and speed of producing Astartes) may have worn something that was – in-universe – retroactively named Thunder Armour, it's been hinted that the Unification Wars were over before the Astartes were created. That's not to say that the Legions didn't exist, at least in name – but it's a far from clear at the moment.

My explanation would be that Thunder Armour was a term that was applied to the armour worn by the Thunder Warriors at the close of the Unification War. As such, it would have been the final refinement of two and a half thousand years of such powered armour, and the stuff worn at the Battle of Mount Ararat would have borne little resemblance to that worn by the initial Thunder Warriors.

As a metaphor, think of real world plate armour development between Roman Britain and the Tudor period – it became more sophisticated and protective, but by the reign of Henry VIII, it was on its way out and a new approach was needed.
In this metaphor, Henry VIII's suit of armour at the Tower of London would have been the equivalent of the the Astartes' Thunder Armour suits – it would have worked perfectly well, but was so flamboyant and expensive compared to its usefulness that it was almost an anachronism.

After the Treaty of Mars/Treaty of Olympus, the tech would have been in place for the development of proper sealed suits for fighting on non-terraformed worlds –thus Crusade Armour.

Legion foundings
QUOTE
What was the order and timing of each Legion's founding, and how did this compare to the finding of their Primarchs? The old fluff mentions that some Legions were founded only just before their Primarch was discovered, whereas the fluff also mentions other Legions having to wait a long time to be united with their liege lord.

Given that the Astartes weren't created until after the end of the Unification Wars, we've got a cut-off date. No Astartes can have been created before the Primarch project, and that's stated to have been after the end of the Unification Wars.

However, it's possible that Astartes were placed into Legions that already existed, hence why the Imperial Fists can have a Roma battle honour from the Unification Wars. This does require the Legions to either still be in service, and (presumably) have included genowarriors, or be the dormant Legions of the Thunder Warriors' – basically the Emperor pulling the memberless Legion out of mothballs with a recruitment campaign.

This interpretation is a bit of a headscratcher, given the info in The Outcast Dead, as the Emperor would probably want to draw as little attention to the fate of the Thunder Warriors as possible! However, what better place to hide it than in plain sight? The official Imperial story is that the Thunder Warriors all died heroically at the Battle of Mount Ararat, so reviving the honoured old Legions with the 'new improved' Astartes standing in the footsteps of the Thunder Warriors would be simultaneously a great way to commemorate the memory of the Thunder Warriors, give the Astartes some history and heroes to strive to emulate, and neatly muddy the waters of the sinister endings of the Thunder Warriors themselves.

Out of universe, this would go some way to explaining:
• How the Space Marines (whose origins are predicated on the research from thee Primarch project) can trace their origins back to the Unification Wars despite the Primarch project happening afterwards.
• Why the Thunder Warriors were 'deleted', and how it was covered up
• How the Legions fought in Thunder Armour during the Unification War.

It makes sense to me that the Astartes weren't all created at once. For a start, even given the resources available to him, the Emperor wouldn't have been able to immediately and simultaneously create hundreds of thousands of warriors. On top of that, we know at least two Legions – Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons – had severe 'recruitment problems'; that the Alpha Legion were implied to be created after the other Legions.

QUOTE
Did all of the Legions fight on Terra prior to the GC, or were the later founded Legions established only to immediately depart on the Great Crusade?

No Astartes fought in the Unification War; but if (and I stress it's a big if, as my thesis is based heavily on supposition) the Astartes were placed into old Thunder Warriors' Legions, it's possible for Legio IV (for example) to have fought in the Unification War. I hope that makes some sense?

That's not to say that no Astartes ever fought on Terra – while the Unification Wars were over, we know that Terra (and presumably Luna) held some resistance to Imperial Rule (Blood Games); which would allow a slim window between the Astartes being created and the Treaty of Mars/Treaty of Olympus – so going back on my earlier comment, we could have had Astartes in Legions wearing Thunder Armour (the 'posh', refined sort) fighting rebels on Terra – which would explain why you could have Terran veterans.*

QUOTE
What armour mark did each Legion start with? Did some of them start with Mk1? Or was that already obsolete by the time the space marines were created? Did the later Legions start with newer armour marks - eg: did the Alpha Legion start with Mk4?

Assuming the following:
• The Astartes were organised into Legions immediately.
• The Legions' numbering has some relevance – i.e. lower numbers were formed first.
• The Legions were created at different rates – some were more stable than others.

We can assume that the Dark Angels (as an early Legion) would have been formed on Terra, issued with the posh Thunder Armour, and would have fought rebels in the few years between the end of the Unification Wars and before the Treaty of Mars/Treaty of Olympus – but that it would have been a very short period, with the armour being almost immediately replaced with Crusade Armour after the Treaty of Mars/Treaty of Olympus.

Conversely, the Alpha Legion (as a later Legion) would never have been issued with Thunder Armour – and potentially only a small core were issued with Crusade Armour, with the swelling numbers being issued with Mark IV straight away.

Unfortunately, we don't know for sure how many Astartes were being developed/trained, but I'd be inclined to say that the early campaigns of the Great Crusade could have been prosecuted by the seeds of most of the Legions. Remember that the speed with which Astartes could be created went up hugely when they were reunited with their Primarch (Index Astartes), so the early Legions would need only have been relatively small – perhaps only a thousand or so, which makes the Emperor's Children mere two hundred members small, but not insignificant. It'd also make the traditional formations, such as the seven companies of the Death Guard etc. make sense.

Theoretical:
As a situation to explain my thinking, let's look at the Compliance of the Sol system; presumably the first campaign of the Great Crusade. The Legions exist, and are made up exclusively of Astartes. We have ~15,000 Astartes split across 16 or so active Legions (inactive ones include the Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Alpha Legion); with most Legions made up of slightly fewer than 1,000 Astartes.

These numbers are purely hypothetical. If the organisation of Space Marine development were different, we could have had only three or four Legions – each only a few hundred strong – conquering the Sol system, with the later Legions nothing more than stored geneseed at this time. As the Great Crusade expanded, the remaining Legions could have been brought into active service at pretty much any period – so the first Alpha Legionnaires could have been recruited and trained, issued with Mark IV and sent out to fight nearly two centuries after the first Dark Angels had been conquering the Sol system. That might explain why they were noted as 'tall' (Index Astares: Alpha Legion) – refinements in the process learned from earlier Legions and the Primarchs discovered over the decades – and why they were only just starting out on Crusade when Alpharius was recovered.


QUOTE
C:SM has a picture of all the armour marks in Ultramarine colours (including Mk1) but this may be poetic licence?

As noted in WD129, Thunder Armour is in use by Chapters in M41, though mainly as honour guard. There's no reason it wouldn't have been repainted at some point – nor that the Astartes Legions didn't take some 'dress suits' with them on the Great Crusade, never intending them for anything more than special occasions etc.

If my theory is right – and I urge you to take it with a pinch of salt – then wearing Thunder Armour to honour the pre-Astartes members of the Legions (i.e. the Thunder Warriors) at special occasions and ceremonies would fit right in with what we know of the Astartes warrior cults/traditions/lodges/practises from books like Horus Rising. After all, these traditions have to have arisen from somewhere – I find the theory that the Astartes, who never directly met the Thunder Warriors, would view them with respect as metaphorical ancestral heroes, a good one.

Resurrecting the Thunder Warriors' old Legions and indoctrinating the Space Marines Legions to follow the traditions would be a great way for the Emperor to cement the Astartes Legions' loyalty, and we know he was a master of propaganda. It would also explain why the Thunder Warriors in The Outcast Dead were viewed as they were by the Astartes; and why the later Legions (Alpha Legion) were perhaps less traditional (though that's by-the-by).

+++

Note
While my post is based on the hints and info we've been given, I stress that there simply isn't much information out there. I've made some jumps and leaps in deduction, but I think it all holds together with the canon information, and I've tried not to contradict the spirit or theme when I've had to square the circle.

I hope it's a useful post for your project, but I emphasise that the information is not set in stone – it's merely my interpretation of 25 years of hints! :)


*An easier explanation for this term in the Horus Heresy series is that the Terran Veterans are simply veterans (i.e. have fought since the start of the Great Crusade) from Terra; rather than veterans of a conflict on Terra.

ShroudFilm - May 3, 2012 10:12 AM (GMT)
The Alpha Legion were only founded very shortly before Alpharius was discovered... which was about 20 years before 'Horus Rising'.

BigWill - May 3, 2012 10:21 AM (GMT)
beat me to it
I remember the part where they talk about the Emperor's foresight ordering the Alpha Legion Formed 20 years before discovery.

Apologist - May 3, 2012 10:40 AM (GMT)
Sorry – ninja edit. :ph43r:

Relevant section:
QUOTE
As a situation to explain my thinking, let's look at the Compliance of the Sol system; presumably the first campaign of the Great Crusade. The Legions exist, and are made up exclusively of Astartes. We have ~15,000 Astartes split across 16 or so active Legions (inactive ones include the Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Alpha Legion); with most Legions made up of slightly fewer than 1,000 Astartes.

These numbers are purely hypothetical. If the organisation of Space Marine development were different, we could have had only three or four Legions – each only a few hundred strong – conquering the Sol system, with the later Legions nothing more than stored geneseed at this time. As the Great Crusade expanded, the remaining Legions could have been brought into active service at pretty much any period – so the first Alpha Legionnaires could have been recruited and trained, issued with Mark IV and sent out to fight nearly two centuries after the first Dark Angels had been conquering the Sol system. That might explain why they were noted as 'tall' (Index Astares: Alpha Legion) – refinements in the process learned from earlier Legions and the Primarchs discovered over the decades – and why they were only just starting out on Crusade when Alpharius was recovered.

BigWill - May 3, 2012 11:12 AM (GMT)
I think a bulk of the legions were on Terra right after unification,that short period you talk of fighting terran rebels was the Astartes final exam if you will.
Outcast Dead made it sound kind of like the Emp did not want Thunder Warriors around after unification and the unstabilty was on purpose.

Who says the Emp was always out fighting,I bet there were lots of times he was nowhere to be found because he was at the lab.
Thunder Warriors were made out of nesesscity,but the Emp is 30k years smart
He would know a large group of supermen would be a problem after the fighting is done,so he builds them to burn themselves out.
Now I remember the Primarchs were made because Astartes were so tough they needed Demi-Gods to lead them.
He call them his sons and with that loyalty he controls the primarchs who control the Legions.
Horus was very correct in assuming after the crusade they would be reduced to a policing role
Probally why the council was formed to slowly take control back,it was not by mistake the Primarchs were losing power and were made a separte entity by making Horus Warmaster.

That's my tired 2 cents after working 20 hrs

Ilmarinen - May 3, 2012 11:56 AM (GMT)
Some excellent speculation there Apologist. Very interesting indeed.

Some random thoughts:

1. When did the Mechanicum of Mars originate in it's current form? (bearing in mind that Terra was split into multiple factions, but the Mechanicum didn't manage to conquer Terra ...or didn't want to?)

2. Who were on the other planets in the Sol system? (what factions needed conquering after the Unification of Terra?)

3. Given the longevity of AM Magi, many of them presumably remember fighting against Terran (and other) factions, possibly against the Emperor too?


BigWill - May 3, 2012 12:27 PM (GMT)
One thing I know Mars exploratorer teams would go to earth during the age of strife to secure hidden tech

Seems if any credence is given to Battle for the Abyss,Saturn was another player in the game with the Saturine Fleets,otherwise it would not be a big deal that it was the good ships captains last flight before the Saturine Fleet was absorbed into the Imperium Fleets proper.

Apologist - May 3, 2012 01:10 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
1. When did the Mechanicum of Mars originate in it's current form? (bearing in mind that Terra was split into multiple factions, but the Mechanicum didn't manage to conquer Terra ...or didn't want to?)


Short answer: Mars was terraformed during the Age of Technology, then lost its atmosphere due to war during the Age of Strife. The Mechanicum arose as a Machine-worshipping priesthood defending the radiation bunkers in the aftermath of the war, and became the dominant – and then only – faction a considerable time prior to the Unification Wars, during which time they mounted raids to Terra to recover Archeotech, and sent seeding fleets out establishing the Forgeworlds. I think this is outlined in Codex Titanicus and Mechanicum, but unfortunately have neither with me.

While the Mechanicum may have possessed the ability to conquer Terra, the political will wasn't there – humanity's homeworld had been reduced to barbarism, and if the Mechanicum could recover the fragments of technology, they were happy. In short, their aims were not opposed to the Emperor (or the other Warlords), and they had no interest in Terra.

QUOTE
2. Who were on the other planets in the Sol system? (what factions needed conquering after the Unification of Terra?)

We know of M31-era inhabitants of Saturn and Jupiter (by implication, the moons of same); and that Pluto had become weaponised. I vaguely remember a reference to something or someone from Mercury, too, but don't quote me on that.

Supposition: I think the asteroid belt and other major dwarf planets/satellites (Ceres in the Asteroid belt, for example) could well have been colonised, if only for mining etc. rather than as competing factions.

QUOTE
3. Given the longevity of AM Magi, many of them presumably remember fighting against Terran (and other) factions, possibly against the Emperor too?

Potentially, yes; and they may have formed part of what would become the Dark Mechanicum. We know from Mechanicum that many of the Cult Mechanicus opposed the Emperor's will and interpretation of him as the Omnissiah.

Brother Handro - May 3, 2012 01:59 PM (GMT)
Great posts from all of you, especially Apologist.

Once again I must register my distaste at the late founding of the Alpha Legion.

I'm no fanboy of that particular legion, but it just doesn't make any sense when viewed from a distance. The boy, (I forget his name, the one in Liar's Due) has a copy of Insignum Astartes, so the heraldry of the Legions would be well known. People would be raised with Imperial propaganda for nearly two centuries 'oh the Emperor created 20 legions to unite humanity!...except we've never seen the 20th one...oh and we don't talk about two of them any more...oh the Emperor created 17 legions to unite humanity, with one in cold storage...' :rolleyes:

There's an awfully big papertrail to deal with when having to make people forget about the two missing legions, or to introduce the latest legion when it pops into existence.

And, while I'm going completely off-topic, what would populations brought into compliance by the two missing legions do after their airbrushing from history? That's a lot of people to keep quiet. Exterminatus? Or does the fact that this isn't an issue imply the two legions didn't do a lot of liberating before being dealt with, leaving less mess to clear up?

Just idle speculation on my part but interesting! :D

Ilmarinen - May 3, 2012 02:25 PM (GMT)
Yep, more quality information from Apologist! (hereafter known as... 'The Loremaster'!)

It can't be an easy job (as I'm sure Shroud will agree) fleshing out fluff that was only an initial sketch a couple of decades ago, and avoiding it contradicting itself.

I agree with Brother Handro that the basic concept of 'the Lost Legions MUST remain secret' is going to be a very difficult task, as more stories are set in time-frames where the protagonists would have had direct knowledge of them. The easiest way is for BL to specifically avoid the topic altogether (eg: the 2nd Legion's homeworld is never mentioned, so we've just never seen it ...or the surrounding systems, and anyone who might have been there, etc etc) but this is a rather 'ignoring the elephant in the room' approach!

I would suggest that the Remembrancers only concentrated on the Legions they were attached to though - so the citizens of the new Imperium would have heard a lot about the existing Legions, but would not have necessarily been told how many Primarchs were created, etc.

Pacific - May 3, 2012 02:25 PM (GMT)
Bloody hell Apologist, some cracking posts there!

That's done a lot to explain things, and I feel on a lot more firmer footing regarding all of the concepts than I had done previously.

I think for now I mate just make some proto-astartes, come up with a colour scheme and style for them, and then worry about the 'regiment' name and icon later on.

Regarding the Outcast Dead, the book has certainly provided a bit more insight into how the Thunder Warriors operated, and perhaps more importantly what they actually were! I love the idea of them being created to fulfil a particular task - once their usefulness was exhausted, then they were 'disposed of' - like the Androids from Blade Runner, were they built to live for only a certain amount of time? Or was the whole thing just circumstance? In any case, this and other stories in the HH series have helped to shape the Emperor as being a more ambiguous character, and helped to bolster the suspension of disbelief when regarding the entire series I think.

The whole thing also helps to shed some light on the role of the Astartes in the Crusade - what was going to happen to them once the war was won? I hope more is made of this line of reasoning and we get to find out more about Horus - As an extreme example, that perhaps he knew about the proto-Astartes and their fate, and knew that the same thing was in store for his Legion when their job was done? At the moment we have 'Horus stabbed by nasty sword -> turns evil'. I would argue that having some kind of underlying narrative, some causality (to, lets face it, the biggest single event - the keystone- of the 40k universe) I think would help elevate the series as a whole. The whole 'better to reign in hell, than serve in Heaven', the casting-off of a slave's chains, is a commonly used form of narrative. But, I think it would be a thousand times better than what we have now.

Some time ago I was involved in a discussion with ADB on one of the other boards, and he thought that revisiting Horus' plight (and adding some weight to that story arc) would be a good idea, but I guess we will have to wait and see whether anything ever reaches the light of day! Shroud, if you are reading this and have accrued any influence during your time at BL, now is the time! :D

Anyway OT I will be ordering some bits this week, will make sure I start a blog when I start putting something together!

Ilmarinen - May 3, 2012 02:45 PM (GMT)
Another aspect that might have been a factor in Horus's fall is that the Anathame was the only weapon to actually threaten his life. For an immortal being, that must have had an emotional impact on some level (cf. the loss of childhood innocence and sense of invulnerability).

To then feel that the Emperor had abandoned him - and was then planning to ascend to an even more detached state of being must have been ...upsetting!

'Uh oh, looks like someone has some daddy issues!' :lol:


malika - May 3, 2012 03:23 PM (GMT)
Wasn't it mentioned in Deliverance Lost that the Alpha Legionaires kind of envied the other Legions who had already found their fathers whilst they were still without a Primarch?

Whilst that would also be possible if the Legion was found 20 years before they reunited with Alpharius, I find that to be a bit hard to buy, especially since many of the Legions were probably separated even longer from their Primarchs and didn't suffer from those kinda issues.

Furthermore. I imagine the Alpha Legion to have had a different name (maybe the XX Legion?), I mean...Alpharius -> Alpha Legion. Kinda too close right?


Apologist - May 3, 2012 03:23 PM (GMT)
Ta very much – though do bear in mind much of it is supposition based on some fairly flimsy evidence!

+++

Lost Legions and the elephant in the room
QUOTE (Brother Handro)
The boy [in Liar's Due] has a copy of Insignum Astartes, so the heraldry of the Legions would be well known.


While they had their quirks prior to meeting the Primarchs, the early Great Crusaders would have been much more similar to each other in appearance, traditions etc. Perhaps that more general view is what's depicted in Insignium Astartes (not to mention the possibility that it's half truths based on hearsay, published by some enterprising so-and-so with no real access to proper information...)

QUOTE
People would be raised with Imperial propaganda for nearly two centuries 'oh the Emperor created 20 legions to unite humanity!...except we've never seen the 20th one...oh and we don't talk about two of them any more...oh the Emperor created 17 legions to unite humanity, with one in cold storage...'
There's an awfully big papertrail to deal with when having to make people forget about the two missing legions, or to introduce the latest legion when it pops into existence.
And, while I'm going completely off-topic, what would populations brought into compliance by the two missing legions do after their airbrushing from history? That's a lot of people to keep quiet. Exterminatus?


Were I to play Devil's advocate, I'd argue that having the Legions emerge gradually would make a lot more sense in terms of keeping them hidden – and nowhere does it suggest that Imperial propaganda would go into so much detail. After all, propaganda tends to paint broader strokes: 'our brave boys' or 'tank divisions', not 'the so-and-so regiment, whose logo is a tiger's head' or 'thirty mark 4 S Gunny Armoured Fighting Vehicles, with the aftermarket spinners'.

A lot of the nascent Imperium is going to be made up of fairly simple frontiersfolk rather than sophisticates, so public information could be as simple as: The Emperor's Astartes are the greatest fighting force in the galaxy; powerfully armed and armoured, with sword and plate and the Imperial truth! Support them today – donate your teeth or whatever.

Let's say the second Legion liberates a world by capturing the three principal cities...
1) Not necessarily many eyewitnesses after an Astartes attacks.
2) As the only Astartes ever heard of before or since, they might be known in local folklore simply as 'the Astartes', rather than 'the Ultramarines/Space Wolves/Stormbreakers'.
3) Suppression of their mention would only need to last one generation of inhabitants – folklore has a habit of distorting the truth anyway, so their mention could be brushed off. No Imperial of worth will admit of their existence.

Your point is valid, but a counterthesis can be made, I think.

QUOTE
Or does the fact that this isn't an issue imply the two legions didn't do a lot of liberating before being dealt with, leaving less mess to clear up?

Well, they were found after Horus at least, and out of the picture by the time Corax was picked up, and that was before at least one other Primarch, which means Primarchs II and XI would have had a maximum operational time frame of only around a century: the Great Crusade lasts roughly two hundred years, Horus wasn't found immediately, and Alpharius was found a fairly long time after the penultimate Primarch (right?)

I think the only thing we can deduce from that about the lost Primarchs is that they and their Legions were unexceptional enough amongst the Astartes (i.e. they weren't strikingly different – like being female, or alien, or something) that they blended in with the others for their duration.

+++
QUOTE (Pacific)
Regarding the Outcast Dead, the book has certainly provided a bit more insight into how the Thunder Warriors operated, and perhaps more importantly what they actually were! I love the idea of them being created to fulfil a particular task - once their usefulness was exhausted, then they were 'disposed of' - like the Androids from Blade Runner, were they built to live for only a certain amount of time? Or was the whole thing just circumstance? In any case, this and other stories in the HH series have helped to shape the Emperor as being a more ambiguous character, and helped to bolster the suspension of disbelief when regarding the entire series I think.


While I like the fact that the Emperor has been painted in a more ambiguous light in the Horus Heresy series, I think it's a shame that the contrast from the earlier background (where he was unequivocally a – if not the – good guy) means that a lot of people are assuming he's being painted as a villain.

Consider –
Bad Guy interpretation of the Emperor
Psychopathic warlord creates Thunder Warriors with built-in self-destruct switch, disposes of them and then does the same with the Astartes; planning to conquer the galaxy and wipe them out in the future to secure his own godhood – viz. Horus' fear in Horus Rising

Good Guy interpretation of the Emperor
Visionary messiah aims to save humanity by wiping out primordial monsters, and needs to create perfect warriors. Owing to limitations of the process and under the stresses of a time limit and war, is forced to deploy an unstable halfway house. Once his power is established, he quickly perfects the process and has a goal in mind at the end – viz. Guilliman's hope in Know No Fear.

Both viewpoints have some merit – not least as a defining theme of the Horus Heresy series. I think it'd be a shame if the classic hero/villain set-up of the story was lost – I'd rather the shades of grey remained for depth, and that it's left open that the Emperor really was doing it for the best. At the very least, leaving it intentionally ambiguous all the way through builds tension for the eventual tragedy when the scales fall from Horus' eyes. Not so tragic if the fallen son strikes down his father and then realises... actually, he is a power-hungry bastard.


QUOTE
The whole thing also helps to shed some light on the role of the Astartes in the Crusade - what was going to happen to them once the war was won? I hope more is made of this line of reasoning and we get to find out more about Horus - As an extreme example, that perhaps he knew about the proto-Astartes and their fate, and knew that the same thing was in store for his Legion when their job was done?

I'd like that, too – it'd add depth. However, I think it's already there: contrast the different Primarch's interpretation of the Emperor's withdrawal to the Imperial dungeon and refusal to see them. As the series advances, each new book touches off and provides a different viewpoint on things we've perhaps taken for granted.

For example, at least three Primarchs have been told that they were the Chaos god's first choice by daemons... so does that alter our interpretation when we re-read Horus being told that in Galaxy in Flames? :)

Pacific - May 3, 2012 06:02 PM (GMT)
I agree completely regarding the Emperor - I think in part it comes down to his character, or at least his actions, now being described in that much more detail. The only background before on the Heresy (and either the big E, or Horus for that matter) that was written as part of the opening blurb of a Marine codex didn't really have the opportunity to go into much depth beyond good vs. evil, black vs. white.

So, while I agree that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to have the Emperor suddenly turn round from his armchair and say, "mwa haha, everything has gone to plan!" and therefore turn the 40k background on its head, at the same time I think it is important to leave a bit of moral ambiguity there - and as you say, provide food for thought regarding the individual perceptions of the Primarchs and how they viewed themselves as part of the relationship with the Emperor.

So, the Emperor's armies smash the empires and kingships of resisting warlords during unification. Yes, perhaps it was necessary in terms of the grand destiny of humankind, but I'm sure the people who had those thunder warriors pass through would have thought otherwise! And the Thunder Warriors themselves - yes of course, you can't have crazed, gene-hanced killers sauntering their way through a newly pacified society. But at the same time, is it fair to 'remove' the very people who were the tool of your success? Same too with the conquest of the galaxy - we've read plenty of times about societies and empires who were perfectly happy minding their own business, yet were given a rather stark choice in terms of their own survival. Was the ultimate objective, the unification of humanity, worth the costs paid along the way?

I think in terms of making the story believable, it needs that level of ambiguity. There is no way of saying 'the Emperor is entirely a force for good', because every single action he has taken has a negative, darker side, even if the overall net effect of such an action could be seen as positive. So, I hope it can continue in a similar manner, while at the same time the story of Horus can be fleshed out, so we can have a real and rational argument for why he would want to turn two hundred years of fealty on its head, and murder his own kin.

---------------------------------------

Regarding this project, I've just put an order in for the 'Tomorrow's War' rule book, which should provide a good ruleset for a skirmish-sized game, and allow a degree of customisation beyond the basic 40k ruleset. The whole thing might make an interesting project in any case! :)

BigWill - May 3, 2012 06:18 PM (GMT)
I do not think the Emp is evil at all.
It has been said humanities future lies along a slim thread and the Emperor is guiding us on that path.
He will kill Billions if it means Trillions live.
I think there are only one or two paths to our survival and if anything gets in the way of that the Emp can become the most evil man since Satan,but it is in fact for our own good.

I personally think the Emperor was stuck down on purpose the only way mankind can survive is if they are hardened but the fires of war.
I think he knows a great menace is on it's way*Tyrannid super-hive fleet that has no arrived yet"
If we were all Kumbya and whatnot we would of been just food.
Now we have a thin chance(If admech approves IG power armor :lol: )

Here is a question I have,what about all the other Galaxies out there?
In 40k do they travel the know Galaxies or just the Milky Way?

Pacific - May 3, 2012 06:42 PM (GMT)
I wasn't arguing that he was evil at all mate, just that there is a fair amount of moral ambiguity about all of the decisions that were made. I guess than kind of exteme utilitarianism is all well and good, as long as you aren't one of the ones who falls on the wrong side of it!

AFAIK, 40k is set entirely within the milky way. The distance between galaxies is massive (I think something like 20 times larger than the size of a galaxy itself? Magos Explorator?! :) ) But then again, I suppose if you have the technology to travel between stars (which in itself is almost incomprehensible without some kind of 'voodoo tech') then it wouldn't be that much of a barrier. The concept of the Nids 'drifting' between galaxies is rather daft however, if you consider that the distance would be something like 200 light years.


Gagoc TheAncient - May 3, 2012 06:52 PM (GMT)
I have a few things to say on this.

First I should warn you that I haven't read Outcast Dead yet, so some of what I write may be in contradiction of it. If any part is kindly ignore.

According to the Formative Armour article, many different Warlords had power armoured Techno-Barbarian warriors in their forces.
And all of these seemed to have had genhancements.

I would ask what happened to those serving other warlords?
Maybe as the Emperor Unified the various factions under his rule he brought those Techno-Barbarians willing into his forces.
That way he could study and copy their genetic enhancements.

Also, for all we know becoming one of these Techno-Barbarian warriors was 'A choice of Achilles'.
In other words they chose a short glorious life over a more mundane one.
It would explain them all dying off by one way or another.

As for the Legions, Shroud has previously pointed out that their founding may be just a reference to when they were acknowledged as a Legion, and that some if not all may have pre-existed that. It might explain why someone like Garro speaks of the Unification Wars.
Because he was part of the Dusk Raiders Regiment, which later became the Death Guard Legion!

And Astartes did take part in the Unification Wars. Both Qruze and Garro speak of fighting on Terra during them, as well as the rest of the Sol system.

We do know that the Legio Custodes did wear gold armour, but did all Thunder Armour have this colouration or was gold always reserved for the Emperors bodyguards?
If it was then it makes sense that the regiments that eventually became the Legions had a different colour, maybe one single one with some variations for the different regiments like the Dusk Raiders red arm and pauldrons.

After all even within a modern-day country's army there are differences in the uniforms of each regiment. More so for a country like Britain.

BigWill - May 3, 2012 07:05 PM (GMT)
Who said anything about argueing,we are just having an idea mash up here.
One of the better threads in a while IMO.

Galaxy drifting is not that daft,they go into stasis and drift for millions of years when they warm up by entering a galaxy all hell breaks loose.

I think Gold was just the Emp and his court so to speak.
I tend to lean toward what Shroud said Steel Armor with a Badge/Heraldry

Pacific - May 3, 2012 07:12 PM (GMT)
Ahh the vagaries of internet communication :wacko:

'I would argue that... ' is just a way of phrasing an opinion, it doesn't mean I am actually 'arguing' (although I do admit I stand up sometimes and stomp my feet when I'm typing a reply to something I don't agree with ;) )

I agree though it's been a really interesting discussion, and really got me motivated to try and come up with some stuff for the Unification era! We could well have opened the door to a niche within a niche of 40k here? :D

malika - May 3, 2012 07:18 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Galaxy drifting is not that daft,they go into stasis and drift for millions of years when they warm up by entering a galaxy all hell breaks loose.

I kinda doubt that, the energy requirements for such a distance would probably mean that a hive fleet would have been completely drained once it arrived here, resulting in them first having to feed to obtain the energy/material to recreate their forces...

As for the Emperor. He is a pragmatist (perhaps) in the truest sense of the world. His love for humanity can make him very inhuman, that might also be his greatest flaw. Kind of strange considering he spent 38k or so years living amongst humans, but he grew totally distant, becoming a lousy parent.

Or he might actually be evil, akin to this.


BigWill - May 3, 2012 07:26 PM (GMT)
I thought in a vacuum all they would have to do is start moving in a direction,the littlest push would be enough,sure millions will be lost to the vaugeries of space but I would think hardly any energy would be needed at all once in motion.

malika - May 3, 2012 07:41 PM (GMT)
Wouldn't you need energy to stay in motion? It's not like space has set currents like the sea.

Apologist - May 3, 2012 07:56 PM (GMT)
No, there's no resistance in a vacuum, so once set in motion, an object will continue until it meets resistance. In interstellar space, there is some (minimal) resistance provided by loose electrons, radiation etc. provided by stellar bodies.

Between galaxies, there is not even the minimal resistance provided by solar winds. You might get the occasional proton, but for all intents and purposes, the voids between galaxies are empty, so as near to a perfect vacuum as we're likely to get in space.

The distances between galaxies are approximately 20–40 times the size of the average galaxy, so huge, but not exponentially larger. If the tyranids were to hibernate and shoot themselves at a galaxy, there's little to stop them except time.

Brother Handro - May 3, 2012 08:46 PM (GMT)
More great responses by all, especially Apologist.

The one thing I would say is;

QUOTE
A lot of the nascent Imperium is going to be made up of fairly simple frontiersfolk rather than sophisticates, so public information could be as simple as: The Emperor's Astartes are the greatest fighting force in the galaxy; powerfully armed and armoured, with sword and plate and the Imperial truth! Support them today – donate your teeth or whatever.

Let's say the second Legion liberates a world by capturing the three principal cities...
1) Not necessarily many eyewitnesses after an Astartes attacks.
2) As the only Astartes ever heard of before or since, they might be known in local folklore simply as 'the Astartes', rather than 'the Ultramarines/Space Wolves/Stormbreakers'.
3) Suppression of their mention would only need to last one generation of inhabitants – folklore has a habit of distorting the truth anyway, so their mention could be brushed off. No Imperial of worth will admit of their existence.



Pretty much everything I mused on could be countered, reasoned, or hand-wavium'ed/ignore the elephant fairly easily , as you say, and your points are logical.

However, what little we have to go on implies to me that populations did by and large (conceeding that high technology world will be more clued up than feral ones) know who their liberators were. - The citizens of Monarchia didn't recognise the XIII legionaries, but they sure as heck would know a Word Bearer when they saw one. - That how they knew the XIII weren't their angels.

Equally, most planets that were rendered compliant by the Luna Wolves would have declared for Horus when the time came, partly through fear but probably just as often through genuine allegiance; they had probably never seen the Emperor, only the strength of Horus.

It seems to me that the identity of a liberating legion would remain impacted of a world's pysche; positively if liberation was welcomed or otherwise did a population good, or negatively if a legion decimated a world and left seeds of bitterness in its people.

The world in the short Salamander piece Forgotten Sons, Bastion, was rendered compliant by the Iron Warriors. They were technologically advanced enough to know the name and heralry of the legion that 'liberated' them, so why wouldn't others? (Plus the IV legion left behind a garrison so no local populace could forget about them. Imagine if it had been that legion that was to be airbrushed from history, good luck cleaning up that mess! Or was that called the Scouring? :lol: ).

I guess all this could mean that plenty of planets were liberated by the II and XI and remembered for a time but forgot them when they never showed up again to recruit, resupply, or otherwise communicate, and then kept quiet during the heresy for fear their liberators had joined the wrong side, been wiped out, etc. Plenty of loopholes!

I'm not really going militant on this; things have to be left vague, I don't want absolutely everything explained in minute detail, 40k's canon is deliberately loose for a reason. That's what keeps it all together. Indeed many forumites elsewhere on the web massively dislike the HH series because they want it to remain mythological. I think there's still plenty of leeway for writing HH novels without ever having to address they pretty minor and geeky issues I raised. :D

Ilmarinen - May 3, 2012 09:02 PM (GMT)
Just as an aside - in the classic Adrian Smith art of the Emperor vs Horus, who are the guys standing next to the Emperor...?

They are in ornate/archaic gunmetal armour, with the Emperor's own symbol on their shoulder (a golden eagle head on a red shield) ...and the one in the bottom left looks like he has blood red eyes (rather than a red visor).

Hmm... sound familiar?!

Personally, I love the idea that the last of the Thunder Warriors would join the Emperor in his most desperate hour - I got the impression from Outcast Dead that they understood why the Emperor had treated them the way he had, and still felt loyal to him even so.


Apologist - May 3, 2012 09:16 PM (GMT)
Brother Handro – eloquently put, and I agree entirely. As I like to say, it's a big sandpit, so everyone can play 40k their own way. From a realistic standpoint (insofar as the 30k/40k universe can be realistic), I'd agree with you. The joy of cover-ups/conspiracy theories/hidden stories/burlesque dancers (;)) is that everyone wants to know what's just underneath the visible layer.

Monsters are scarier when you can't see what or where they are, because your imagination can generally do a better job than a rubber suit; and likewise the Lost Legions are always going to have an attraction purely because they're lost. If GW ever reveals them, it'll be to the biggest sigh of joy and relief ... and then a vague sense of disappointment.

Personally, I love the idea of the II and XI Legions and Primarchs, and I can never understand it when people shout down other people's interpretations and fan-fic. Sure, they're generally a bit hokey – super skull marines! Female marines! – but the author think it's awesome, and that's all that matters, at the end of the day. After all, it's a big shared galaxy, where truths, half-truths and lies intermingle, and everything you've been told is a lie:)

QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ May 3 2012, 09:02 PM)
Just as an aside - in the classic Adrian Smith art of the Emperor vs Horus, who are the guys standing next to the Emperor...?

They are in ornate/archaic gunmetal armour, with the Emperor's own symbol on their shoulder (a golden eagle head on a red shield) ...and the one in the bottom left looks like he has blood red eyes (rather than a red visor).

Hmm... sound familiar?!

Personally, I love the idea that the last of the Thunder Warriors would join the Emperor in his most desperate hour - I got the impression from Outcast Dead that they understood why the Emperor had treated them the way he had, and still felt loyal to him even so.

Great idea – Baba resurgent! – though I vaguely recall Adrian Smith was quoted as saying that they're intended to be Custodes/loyalist marines. He changed them from gold to gunmetal so as not to distract from the Emperor – in short, artistic license.

I'm happy with that as an explanation; and – as an aside – rather like the idea it's a propaganda piece. Compare it with Adrian Smith's original Emperor vs Horus image, in which the Emperor looks considerably more vulnerable, Sanguinius looks considerably more dead(!), and the atmosphere is subtly more sinister. Horus definitely looks in control in the earlier one, while the Emperor looks stoically capable in the later version.

Ilmarinen - May 3, 2012 09:24 PM (GMT)
Good point, but from an in-universe perspective, who's to say whether the Remembrancer who created this image really knew what he was painting? He may have naively assumed from the descriptions he was given that they were Legio Custodes (after all, who else would be standing next to the Emperor?) ...little realising that they were in fact something else entirely. ;)


Pacific - May 3, 2012 09:44 PM (GMT)
No doubt there are people within the Imperium who knew about the Lost Legions, but for the most part those people wouldn't figure on the radar, and after a generation or two (and with names being officially removed) then who would know?

Re. the Tyranids, I guess we have to assume they have some kind of space folding or warp technology. Otherwise using conventional rockets (specifically, not some kind of star trek-esque tech) wouldn't it be something in the region of 100,000 years?

Anyway, on topic, I hope to do the following with this stuff
- make some unification-era proto astartes/thunder warriors
- some enemies of unification (I think it would be great fun coming up with some ideas )
- formulate rules using the Tomorrow's War AAR ruleset, and perhaps even a template and campaign for others to follow.




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