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The Great Crusade > Pre-Heresy Background Q&A > Sevrin loth and retinue - what mark?


Title: Sevrin loth and retinue - what mark?


rabblerouser - March 9, 2011 02:45 PM (GMT)
Question: what mk of power armour would you say these dudes are wearing? I am particularly curious about the guy with the halberd and the MK3 looking helmet. Is that chest MK3? It looks a little like MK4 minus the cables.

Also, a bit OT, but does anyone know how many pieces does tyberos come in?

Ilmarinen - March 9, 2011 03:03 PM (GMT)
The cables look similar to Vet Serg Haas's torso (and the Custodes artwork) and some Mk1 older models. I think it's generally felt to be artificer now, rather than a particular mark. The rest of the Haas chestplate and this chestplate are shaped like Mk4, so I'd go with artificer Mk4.

ShroudFilm - March 9, 2011 03:13 PM (GMT)
According to all FW's notes, the RS veterans are all wearing MK4.

Sevrin Loth is wearing MK4 with Librarian gear, his guard are in Artificer armour.

Ilmarinen - March 9, 2011 03:34 PM (GMT)
He shoots ...he scores! Woo! :lol:

Pacific - March 9, 2011 03:56 PM (GMT)
I think the model deserves a link, just because it's so damned awesome (in case anyone hasn't seen it).

user posted image

Ilmarinen - March 9, 2011 04:30 PM (GMT)
I bought one for exactly that reason. Definitely going to become a Storm Seer.

Thinking about artificer Mk4 thing a bit more, it would be really good to see the honour guard torsos with Mk4 legs and helmets. Hmm...

rabblerouser - March 10, 2011 12:30 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Mar 9 2011, 04:30 PM)
I bought one for exactly that reason. Definitely going to become a Storm Seer.

Thinking about artificer Mk4 thing a bit more, it would be really good to see the honour guard torsos with Mk4 legs and helmets. Hmm...

I was just thinking that too.

The guy with the halberd that I am referring to is not wearing MK4 though. It's gotta be an MK2 or 3 helmet.

user posted image

Lord Commander Lucius - March 10, 2011 08:42 AM (GMT)
Dunno about the armour marks despite owning him. Tyberos comes in 4 parts; head, body, left arm, right arm.

rabblerouser - March 10, 2011 10:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Lord Commander Lucius @ Mar 10 2011, 08:42 AM)
Dunno about the armour marks despite owning him. Tyberos comes in 4 parts; head, body, left arm, right arm.

Are the shoulder pads separate?

Lord Commander Lucius - March 10, 2011 11:59 AM (GMT)
Not as far i remember. I'll check my copy when i get home.

Edit: Nope, the pads are attached to the arms, just checked on a bits site.

ShroudFilm - March 10, 2011 12:41 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (rabblerouser @ Mar 10 2011, 12:30 AM)
The guy with the halberd that I am referring to is not wearing MK4 though. It's gotta be an MK2 or 3 helmet.

See above. FW guy described it as "Artificer armour".

The Lieutenant - March 10, 2011 09:46 PM (GMT)
Yeah, they all have artificier armour, which clouds attempting to adqeuately define armour marks.

Also, my flatmate has that model. Its so damn beautiful. He's counting him as Mephiston because the model is so damn awesome, he deserves Mephy's rules.
:P

rabblerouser - March 11, 2011 12:36 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Mar 10 2011, 12:41 PM)
See above. FW guy described it as "Artificer armour".

He could have described it as kebab armour... my point is the head really looks like MK3 iron armour 2 - I really think that's where the inspiration came from.

http://zachary.org/games/gw/smvar1.jpg


Magos Explorator - March 11, 2011 02:34 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Lieutenant @ Mar 10 2011, 04:46 PM)
Also, my flatmate has that model. Its so damn beautiful.

I agree with this. The whole set looks fantastic and I've been considering buying one, if I can figure a good way to fit it into one of my forces. Really well done, FW.

Ilmarinen - March 11, 2011 07:53 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
my point is the head really looks like MK3 iron armour


You could argue that it looks slightly more like a variant Mk2 than Mk3 due to the smaller size of the face grill, but yes, it's an artificer pre-Mk4 helmet.

However, in Collected Visions there are lots of images of squads of marines in Mk4 where at least one marine has a Mk3-style helmet instead of the standard Mk4 helmet. Does this mean that they kept their Mk3 helmet when they were given a new suit of armour? Does this mean there was an updated Mk3 helmet available as an alternative to the standard Mk4? Unknown.

In summary, several of the honour guard torsos in this set are clearly artificer Mk4 (but a couple could pass for Mk7 artificer) and there are some heads that look like variants of Mk2 or 3. But according to Collected Visions wearing this style of helmet with Mk4 armour is not unusual.

Phew.

Incidentally, the 'Iron Warriors' style helmet (with the pointing up nose) is also shown on a Death Guard marine in Mk4 armour in CV.

Doghouse - March 12, 2011 02:15 PM (GMT)
I'd go with Shroud's FW explanation of it being artificer armour.

I've been incredibly tempted to get these guys purely for parts for a long while now but have so far resisted.
I love the artificer torso with the skulls built into it taken directly from the armour images in the space marine codex and a lot of the parts would be great for marking out officers.

Gagoc TheAncient - March 12, 2011 07:40 PM (GMT)
I've only ever come across one explanation that even comes close to what exactly 'Artificer Armour' is.

From Formative Armour:
QUOTE
The Artificersí job is to decorate and maintain the Chapters armour and weapons. The Chapter has Engineer Adepts and Techmarines whose role is to manufacture much of the equipment, so the Artificers are involved more with decoration, engraving, customising and modifying the basic equipment.
For example, when a Marine earns a combat honour, it is the Artificers who make the honour the badge and affix it to the Marines armour. Similarly, the Artificers make rank, campaign and long service badges as well as other marks of distinction that are used by their Chapter.

Older types of armour become associated with the history of many Chapters and often with the deeds of heroic individuals. Artificers will carefully seek out examples of these ancient armour to use as the base on which they can engrave honour marks or purely decorative features. Such pieces will be lovingly restored, often plated with precious metals, and then painstakingly engraved, and with dual technology circuits, incorporated into a  Marines armour.
As successful Space Marine Officers are often presented with ancient pieces of armour, a single armoured plate or helmet might belong to a whole succession of Space Marine heroes and been worked on by many famous Artificers.


This basically explains artificer armour as a suit which they've let the Artificers at, restoring, upgrading and decorating them. They also tend to have older pieces of armour incorporated into them.

Unless there's another definition, the one above pretty much covers what we see with Sevrin Loth and his Honour Guard.

rabblerouser - March 15, 2011 07:46 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Mar 11 2011, 07:53 AM)
However, in Collected Visions there are lots of images of squads of marines in Mk4 where at least one marine has a Mk3-style helmet instead of the standard Mk4 helmet. Does this mean that they kept their Mk3 helmet when they were given a new suit of armour? Does this mean there was an updated Mk3 helmet available as an alternative to the standard Mk4? Unknown.

See I don't consider collected visions as a definitive source. I think most of the illustrators were not fans of 40k and took too many artistic liberties. As far as power armour goes, I think the rick priestly article in white dwarf 129 should be the primary source. That article also had sketches that offer a good idea of what the types should look like before they are artificed or modified. Similarly, forge world got a little carried away with the early style backpacks, and they got lazy with the heresy armour torsos.

moving on...

The real reason for this thread is that I want to re-make this guy.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2hd1o5g.jpg
That helmet from the retinue looks like a close fit.

Ilmarinen - March 15, 2011 08:27 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
See I don't consider collected visions as a definitive source. I think most of the illustrators were not fans of 40k and took too many artistic liberties.

I agree to a certain extent that the images in Collected Visions require some 'interpretation'. I prefer to look at the cards and ignore the placing of images in the book (since the armour marks and story don't often match up).

I initially thought that the artwork was a bit cartoony at times, but having seen some of the fantastic conversions on TGC, which bring the artwork to life in a properly gritty and Grimdark™ way, I've gone back to CV more and more.

The guy you want to remake obviously has Mk3 legs and arms, with Mk2 shoulder pads and a 'Mark 1 bolter' (I would really like some of those!). The helmet you want to use would certainly work well.

I need to add the old-style cables to my Mk2 DG (when I eventually get some time to sit down and do them).

rabblerouser - March 15, 2011 11:02 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Mar 15 2011, 08:27 AM)
The guy you want to remake obviously has Mk3 legs and arms, with Mk2 shoulder pads and a 'Mark 1 bolter' (I would really like some of those!). The helmet you want to use would certainly work well.

In the original illustration and on the original models, those shoulder pads were mk3. The original mk2 shoulder pads had thin rims and rivets placed just outside of the raised area. Forge world got a little creative with these too.

We made those early style bolters but they don't fit the arms very well. I'll have some available in 2 months or so.

Pacific - March 15, 2011 01:39 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ilmarinen @ Mar 15 2011, 08:27 AM)
I agree to a certain extent that the images in Collected Visions require some 'interpretation'. I prefer to look at the cards and ignore the placing of images in the book (since the armour marks and story don't often match up).

I initially thought that the artwork was a bit cartoony at times, but having seen some of the fantastic conversions on TGC, which bring the artwork to life in a properly gritty and Grimdark™ way, I've gone back to CV more and more.

The guy you want to remake obviously has Mk3 legs and arms, with Mk2 shoulder pads and a 'Mark 1 bolter' (I would really like some of those!). The helmet you want to use would certainly work well.

I need to add the old-style cables to my Mk2 DG (when I eventually get some time to sit down and do them).

And not to mention, we wouldn't be sat here now having discussions on this forum if it weren't for that book (and before it the CCG).

I also like to think that if the Legions were really as large as we were lead to believe, with armour being produced by hundreds of different forge worlds, each providing there own interpretation of design, then the armour would be anything but completely uniform when compared across legions. So, I agree with Ilmarinen in that sense, the pictures are best viewed for their own sake and just as a source of inspiration. I'm not sure I'd agree that too many 'artistic liberties' were taken, it's not like any of them are firing laser beams from their eyes or transforming into super versions of themselves via the use of dragon balls.

I know WD129 seems to be viewed in an almost semi-religious manner, but really it has stood alone in it's descriptions of armour for far too long IMO, and definitely needs the current crop of authors to revisit the chronology of when the various marks were created. Although my fear with that route is that mk6 will be pushed firmly into heresy/post heresy, and thus eradicate the 'grey area' which exists for it at the moment <_<

Ilmarinen - March 15, 2011 02:11 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
it's not like any of them are firing laser beams from their eyes or transforming into super versions of themselves via the use of dragon balls.

Shhh, Matt Ward will hear you...! :lol: :blink: :ph43r:

I'm pretty sure Shroud, in his new role as High Priest of Heresy Continuity, will be making sure that we get some definitive (and sensible) canon on armour marks.

IMHO Mk6 has always been associated with the Siege of Terra, but given the number of corvus-style helmets here and there in the PRE-Heresy artwork, I think there will have to be a prototype corvus helm available earlier on.




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