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Title: Pre-Heresy Eldar


Doghouse - February 27, 2011 04:48 PM (GMT)
The xenos are probably the most over looked aspect of the great crusade and heresy in terms of actual themed armies but played a fairly big part in the history of both.

As I'm currently steaming ahead with my Iron Hands at the moment my thoughts have turned to other armies with the possibility of getting some gaming in the near future. As much as I love marines all BS and Toughness 4 with 3+ saves can get a little dull after a while. :D

Rather than just make a few random forces I figured I'd tie them altogether as part of one campaign on one world so that there is a pre-heresy theme running throughout.

The second army is a bit of a given seeing as I recently started work on my Pre-heresy Orks not that long ago but the third was an army that I haven't really played since third edition.

The Fall

One of the main parts to consider when doing a marine pre-heresy army is equipment. The wrong armour or weapon can drastically throw out the feel of the army with something as simple as the inclusion of a Razorback or having a bunch of guys running around in Mk VII armour.
In truth it doesn't really matter that much as far as gaming is concerned because at the end of the day pre-heresy is probably more about converting rather than worrying too much about tiny details.
But for me the attraction is trying to recreate the armies as accurately as possible as I'd imagine them to be.

The most obvious answer to doing Eldar is to just use the current models and rules but in truth this wouldn't really be a true Pre-Heresy army. Sure you can chuck in a few marine bits from the time painted in legion colours but when you actually take a good long hard look at the Eldar there is a depth of detail that hasn't really been touched upon just waiting to be tapped and so many questions waiting to be answered.

I'm guessing that most here reading this know atleast something of the Fall. In short the Eldar gave in to self indulgence and decadence and as a result the majority of the race was wiped out with the few survivors either lurking in the webway going a bit mad or clinging to life on exodite worlds or craftworlds.

Those that do not know that much more might not know of the Asurya, or Children of Asur. During the lead up to the fall many of the Eldar left their homeworlds to settle on exodite worlds or took to the stars in great vessels known as craftworlds. One such warrior was called Asurmen, first of the Eldar aspects and founder of the warrior temples known as the Shrines of Asur.
Very little is known of Asurmen other that it was said that his first incarnation perished during the fall with the destruction of the exodite world of Asur but his pupils travelled far and wide spreading the way of the Warrior Path and founding aspect shrines throughout the surviving Craftworlds.

To be honest this is where things get a little more interesting and where the modelling options begin to creep in.

Now given that the birth cry of Slaanesh tore through the great ocean clearing the warp storms around Terra and countless other worlds this means that the Fall must have taken place around the same time as the beginning of the Great Crusade give or take fifty or so either way. Any earlier than this and forces like the Adeptus Mechanicus would have most likley been off exploring other parts of the galaxy on their own.

This paints the Eldar in a very different light and raises a number of interesting questions.

So basically you have this all consuming cataclysmic event that basically decimates an entire species at the absolute height of their power and reduces them to become an endangered species overnight.

First of all I'm going to look at the aspect warriors themselves. At the time of the Fall the Dire Avengers were the first to emerge, followed by the Howling Banshees.
This means that the vast majority of aspect warriors of the time are most likely going to be Dire Avengers with the others only just beginning to gain prominence in the following centuries.

It'd be a truly terrible time of turmoil and loss for the Eldar and for them to suddenly appear in the time of the Great Crusade in their current format seems incredibly unlikely.

So basically this is what this army is going to be all about, exploring the nature of the post-fall Eldar and how they could be best represented.

To lead them I'm going to be making an Asurya, one of the first Exarchs, using the Autarch rules and then get a few Dire Avenger together. As this is just a secondary army for the time being till I can finish my Iron Hands I'm just aiming for 1000pts for both the Eldar and the Orks to begin with.

As soon as I have some shots worth looking at I'll post them up and take it from there. ;)

Whitehorn - February 27, 2011 04:58 PM (GMT)
Some nice thoughts there. I've also been looking at my options for turning other armies pre-Heresy, be it Orks, Eldar and non-Imperial humans.

I like the idea of fledgling aspects and have been pondering an army that fields just 1, maybe 2 at a stretch. For me, that has to be swooping hawks.

With the new Wasp walkers coming from FW, an all-out aeiral Eldar army is very appealing and one I feel can be tied in with an Exodite base somehow.

Doghouse - February 27, 2011 05:40 PM (GMT)
Yeah I think that there is some serious conversion potential throughout the other races that often falls beneath the radar because of the attraction of marines.

In terms of Eldar it also gives you greater freedom to create your own aspects that never quite lasted the following ten thousand years.
I was toying around with converting some of those new FW aspect warriors to create a proxy for one of the other shrines like maybe the swooping hawks.
Maybe just lop off the heavy weapons and stick second edition plastic Eldar lasguns on them.

The wasp walkers are really nice models to be honest and would look great in an army like this, I've been tempted to get a few myself.

For the most part I'm going to be working on Guardians because it seems the most likely that these are going to make up the bulk of the force and have a nice little design worked out for them.

Azkaellon - February 27, 2011 06:14 PM (GMT)
Having not owning a copy of codex Eldar - where do the phoenix lords fall into place with the fall? are they the first of the aspects' exarch's?

In "Eldar Prophecy" by C S Goto; It mentions in the glossary at the back about the phoenix lords being the first disciples of Asurmen who later form the various aspect temples and fighting styles reflecting the different ways in which khaine had whispered into their souls. It also mentions a fallen Phoenix lord - speculated by the craftworld in the novel to be the lord of the warp spiders......

Sounds like a brilliant idea and a refreshing change of pace. you get the tiniest bit of detail from Fulgrim when the EC meet Eldrad and a description of a craftworld sacked by the Vlka Fenryka in Prospero burns.

Doghouse - February 27, 2011 07:37 PM (GMT)
Originally back in second edition Asurmen created the aspect warrior shrine just before the fall but in later editions they sort of glazed over this part and didn't really say when.

The original Pheonix lords (known as the Asuryata) were the ones that went on to found the shrines dedicated to their aspects.

Jain Sarr was the first and she founded the Howling Banshees. The problem is that there isn't really a time scale in place in regards to the fall itself but there are little snippets here and there. The first striking scorpions shrine for example has been long since lost but it is believed to have been on one of the Craft Worlds that survived the Fall only to be destroyed afterwards which seems to suggest that they were also around before the fall.

It basically suggests that all the shrines were in place before the fall but not to what extent. It's probably fair to say Dire Avengers and possibly Howling Banshees were the most numerous at the time.

Another interesting part is how spirit stones come about and at what point did they first realise that they were being devoured by Slaanesh when they died?
Both these aspects might have some sort of effect on the look of the army.

Ilmarinen - February 27, 2011 07:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Now given that the birth cry of Slaanesh tore through the great ocean clearing the warp storms around Terra and countless other worlds this means that the Fall must have taken place around the same time as the beginning of the Great Crusade give or take fifty or so either way.

^This. I've been thinking along these lines recently too.

Various things spring to mind:
1. Slaanesh did REALLY well to get in on the Heresy action, since it was only a few years or decades old!
2. How much did the Dark Eldar vary from their 40K counterparts? When did they strike their bargain with Slaanesh? (Presumably not that long after Slaanesh was 'born')
3. I would imagine that there would have been considerably more Exodite worlds at the beginning of the Great Crusade, and they would have been a significant target for the expanding crusade fleets (inhabiting habitable worlds)
4. There would have been more Craftworlds
5. When did the Harlequins appear?!
6. What did the Emperor know about the Fall (did he feel it coming?) and what contact did he have with the Eldar (if any?)
7. Did crusade fleets find crone worlds (distant from the Eye) and how did they react?
8. Were there any battles between Primarchs and Phoenix Lords?

Whitehorn - February 27, 2011 07:48 PM (GMT)
This got me wondering about Chaos.

The entities seem to have been shaped by human growth, rather than the Eldar and yet the Eldar birthed Slaanesh and have the technology of the spirit stones, infinity circuit, etc.

The Emperor was supposedly formed because the human shamans in 8,000BC could no longer reincarnate after death, due to predators in the warp. This makes me think the Eldar either already had their spirit stones back then or somehow were unaffected (uneaten) before Slaanesh came about.


Doghouse - February 27, 2011 07:56 PM (GMT)
Ilmarinen: Totally agree with you there mate. At most Slaanesh was only a couple of centuries old when the Heresy itself kicked off. Seeing as he'd/she'd already won other the Laer by the time it came into contact with Fulgrim he/she certainly didn't much about once born.
I guess they could get around it by saying that time behaves differently in the warp though.

Yeah there would have definitely been more exodite and craft worlds than there are now. It'd be interesting to see what condition they would be in though because the whole going from potentially tens of billions of Eldar to maybe a tens millions must have been an extremely traumatic event for them.

I haven't really been able to find much on the creation of the Harlequins though, just their organisation.

I've always imagined the Emperor had been preparing terra for the moment that he knew the storms would disappear so he could crack on with the crusade. Whether or not he knew it would be the fall of the Eldar and the creation of Slaanesh though I don't really know.

Whitehorn: I think Chaos is probably the by product of the war between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr.

As far as I know the warp is basically poison to the C'tan so the Old Ones seeded the galaxy with psychic capable races in order to fight them. The webway being a creation of theirs, could be that the spirit stones were something created by them as well I guess?




Whitehorn - February 27, 2011 08:00 PM (GMT)
Slaanesh's sphere pre-dated his actual 'sentient birth', so it's not like aetheric aspect of perversion was turned on over night (excuse the pun) when the Eldar's sedition came to a climax. The laer may well have been up to no good for a long time before Slaanesh came knocking :D

I've not read up on DE background, but why couldn't they make use of spirit stones?

Azkaellon - February 27, 2011 08:18 PM (GMT)
In the same book:

QUOTE

Asuryan-The Phoenix King, took pity on Isha when he saw the glittering beauty of her tears - one shed for each of her hunted (by Khaine) children.
Hence Asuryan seperated the heavenly from the mortal realms, forbidding any contact between the two. this saved the children of Isha from Khaine's wrath but doomed them never to see their mother again.

In sympathy, it is said that Vaul, the smith god, fashioned Isha's tears into spirit stones so that she could retain some contact with her cherished children


If this is to be believed then surely the spirit stones have been part of the Eldar culture before The Fall?
They must be used for a variety of purposes

  • deceased seers communing with current seers
  • to return a soul to the infinity circuit
  • to power wraith lords/wraith guard

It also goes some way to explain why craftworld Eldar post The Fall created The Path as a way of curbing the excess and high emotion that birthed the great enemy.

As for the DA - from GW site:
QUOTE
The Dark Eldar see themselves as the true inheritors of the Eldar race following the Fall. While their weakling brethren fled the empire to Maiden Worlds far across the galaxy or escaped on wraithbone craftworlds, those that would become the Dark Eldar remained, albeit shrouded in the webway and unscathed by the apocalyptic birth of the Chaos God Slaanesh.

Although their psychic might has atrophied, the Dark Eldar see themselves as closer to the Ancient Eldar than those who eke out an existence on the surviving craftworlds. While Craftworld Eldar have evolved a rigid path system to stave off the wanton desires that lie buried deep in every Eldar soul, the Dark Eldar have embraced these ambitions and cravings.

Gagoc TheAncient - February 27, 2011 11:25 PM (GMT)
Harlequins are followers of the Laughin God, one of the few remaining members of the Eldar's pantheon.
It is possible that the Harlequins already existed before the fall.

Spirit Stones, or tears of Isha(?), seemed tied to the Fall. And considering that Exodites don't have Spirit Stones, but something similar, I'd say that they were tied in with the creation of the Craftworlds.

It seems to me that when we speak of the Fall of the Eldar, we can speak of either the destruction of their empire when Slaanesh was born, or the decay of the Eldar society leading up to the Fall.

The Eldar Path and the Spirit Stones seem to have their origins during the time characterised by this latter definition, along with the Craftworlds themselves.

Vredesbyrd - February 28, 2011 12:27 AM (GMT)
I think it makes sense for the Harlequins to have existed before the Fall, if I remember correctly it was Cegorach that protected his followers from Slaanesh's birth throes. Partially by hiding them deep within the webway with him and each Harlequin's soul returns to the Laughing God on their death, rather than being stored in a Spirit Stone.

I imagine Solitaires, being the representation of Slaanesh within the dances and masques of the Harlequins, may be a lot rarer due to the events that inspired many of those performances taking place during the time the army will be set. Having said that I don't know if there are currently rules for the Solitaire, so this may well be a non-issue.

Azkaellon - February 28, 2011 12:30 AM (GMT)
The tears of Isha is the Eldar mythology for the spirit stones as far as i can tell. with Vaul creating the stones for the Eldar race. linked to the time of all of the old ones i guess when the race was young...:unsure:

I think that Asurmen founded the shrines during the decay of the society leading up to the fall as a way of bringing structure and balance to the race, it was during or after that the various Aspects began to emerge (but obviously cannon is a bit vague)

Eldar prophecy by CS Goto describes an insular craftworld that avoids the web way And other Craftworld and it implies inter Craftworld wars, As the avoid the web way the the warp spider aspect is not in asendancy and the craftworlds histories tell of the Fallen Phoenix to possibly be a warp spider.

Path of the Warrior by Gav Thrope describes Alaitoc and below the describe the Fallen Phoenix to be Arhra of the Striking Scorpions

Also as another bit about the aspect shrines there is a bit in Path of the Warrior by Gav Thorpe.

QUOTE
it was Asurmen that founded the first shrine and gathered disciples to teach, Arhra amongst them, the Father of Scorpions. Some dark fate befell Arhra, of which i do not know the story, and his greatest pupil Karandras took up the mantle and spread the teachings of the Striking Scorpion.

Arhra fell from grace, touched by the dark of Chaos, and betrayed his kin. He turned on the rest, brought Daemons to the first shrine, hungry for power. The Asyra. the first Exarchs of The Path fought against Arhra. They lost the battle , scattered to the distant stars, and Arhra escaped. He strayed from The Path, consumed by ambition, and found new pupils. His teachings are wrong, a perversion of The Path, the Fallen Phoenix.


Dark Striking Scorpions....there's a twist :huh: It also goes on to say because he disappeared into the warp he could still be alive in the 40k universe

Magos Explorator - February 28, 2011 02:25 AM (GMT)
This is an interesting thread. I had (but got rid of) an Eldar force I styled as pre-Heresy; I painted them as Craftworld Altansar (sucked into the Eye within a century of the Fall) and used the metal Guardians from late Rogue Trader/early Second Edition in the force. However, at the time I didn't really go beyond that. I agree that Harlequins would likely have been around back then.

Azkaellon, I remember that it was suggested in 3rd edition that Arhra founded the Incubi shrine. As you mention, he was a Striking Scorpion rather than a Warp Spider. I've not read the novels you mention though. I think the Warp Spider models may have been released a little later than the other main Aspects (memory is hazy), and the Shining Spears did not appear in model form for many more years, so that's possibly why we don't know about their Phoenix Lords.

I am not sure how I would theme a Craftworld Eldar force if set before the Heresy. The suggestion of the prominence of Dire Avengers is a good one. If Iyanden I would perhaps use fewer Wraithguard or Wraithlords (given the mass-activation was in response to the Tyranid threat, in near-present-day 40k). In fact, for any Craftworld, if the living were more populous then perhaps they would not disturb the dead so much. Other than that I would imagine not much may have changed over the 10,000 years.

Whitehorn - February 28, 2011 08:58 AM (GMT)
Altansar is a great one to go for, since it is said to have slowly been killed over a few hundred years following Slaanesh's birth - intwined with the great crusade perhaps? Also, the chance to visit Maugan Ra's background is appealing.

The 'Dark Striking Scorpions' are hinted to be Incubi.

Ilmarinen - February 28, 2011 10:54 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
The 'Dark Striking Scorpions' are hinted to be Incubi.

So would they have looked like 'modern' Incubi fairly rapidly, or would they have retained their Striking Scorpion appearance (but probably in dark colours) for a while. I would think 'dark' scorpions would be a nice visual difference from 40K eldar.

Whitehorn - February 28, 2011 11:17 AM (GMT)
I don't think it's a case of Scorpions falling to Chaos with him, more that Arhra became the dark father of the Incubi, who are styled quite similar (perhaps in Arhra's image).

Ie, the Incubi are a dark derivation of Arhra's warrior path teachings, rather than actual fallen scorpions.

Doghouse - February 28, 2011 03:26 PM (GMT)
Good points guys. It's given me a lot to think about in regards to this army.

I think generally speaking operating within these guidelines that everyone has talked about here there is a lot of stuff that can be done with these guys.

I've just started a basic Guardian model and am working on a custom aspect that I'm probably just going to use as a proxy striking scorpion. I'll post some shots up later today with any luck and see what you think.


Azkaellon - February 28, 2011 06:26 PM (GMT)
The Gav Thorpe book is recent, i'm halfway through and it gives some depth to the scorpion temple and its mythology.
The C S Goto book is a little older.

I think that the Arhra stuff with the Incubi fits as it describes the original scorpions fighting against him for bringing daemons into the shrine before he fled. I must get the Dark Eldar codex to read up on it.

I cant wait for you to put your attention to this project, it's going to look awesome, especially as you have so much scope to work with.

Edit+++just realised i have Codex:Eldar, not much in it about this time period or the Aspect temples foundations+++ :(

Vinnie - February 28, 2011 06:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Azkaellon)
Although their psychic might has atrophied


I really wanted to do a PH Eldar army a few mponths ago, but like you couldn't find a kickboard to start off with. But looking at the above quote, which implies that they used to be epic psyker-type bad-asses, I'm now pondering a post-Fall Dark Eldar using the Daemon codex...

Other than that I have nothing to add to this thread, as my knowledge of Eldar canon is dismally lacking.

Doghouse - March 3, 2011 06:14 PM (GMT)
Azkaellon: Yeah the second ed codex only has a little more but not much. I think people have a free reign with these guys to be honest and there isn't really a wrong way of doing them.

Vinnie: Take a look at the Dark Eldar codex mate as it will probably give you quite a few ideas and gives some insight into what was happening in the pre-fall era.

Update

Rather than just use regular Eldars I'm going for a more individual look to the guardians as it makes sense to me that at the time they were at the height of their power and I want to make them look a little more ornate.

This guy below next to a regular guardian is based on the Rogue Trader design but all of the others will each have subtly different designs to their lids and maybe armour.

WIP Guardian

user posted image

These next two WIPs are going to be a yet unnamed warrior aspect of my own design using the Striking Scorpion rules as a proxy.

user posted image

Whitehorn - March 3, 2011 06:48 PM (GMT)
Very nice ideas. I was looking at some RT models on ebay earlier - miss the old metal models!


Sinzaren - March 3, 2011 07:15 PM (GMT)
Yes I do like the new aspect design, I'd be tempted to give the whole force helms like that :)

Ilmarinen - March 3, 2011 07:19 PM (GMT)
Those are fantastic!

Azkaellon - March 3, 2011 09:31 PM (GMT)
Looking great, nice work on the face mask. Definitely read Path of the Warrior! As for the armour the look of the Phoenix Lords would be a good basis as they are from the pinnacle of the technology and their armour is from that period.

I am looking at using eldar, the new dark eldar and old dark eldar kits, possibly raid dark elf kits too.

Magos Explorator - March 3, 2011 11:31 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Azkaellon @ Mar 3 2011, 04:31 PM)
Looking great, nice work on the face mask.

+1 to this. :)

Whitehorn - March 4, 2011 12:48 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Azkaellon @ Mar 3 2011, 09:31 PM)
look of the Phoenix Lords would be a good basis as they are from the pinnacle of the technology and their armour is from that period.

Great idea, I has a plan!

Doghouse, you've raised the bar once more. Prepare for a greenstuff fight :D

Apologist - March 4, 2011 10:30 AM (GMT)
Giganto-wall o' text go!

Brilliant concept Doghouse, and one to which I'm very glad you've brought your fertile imagination and skill! Here're my thoughts, which I hope are useful :)
Loving the custom aspect sculpts (perhaps call 'em Avenging Warriors, as that's the term used in WD127 before they changed their mind and called them Dire Avengers?)


Aspects
We know that Karandras was the second of the Scorpion Asuryan (after Arhra, the Fallen Phoenix, who burned with the dark light of Chaos [2nd ed. Codex Eldar]). It's implied that it was Karandras was the one who introduced the stealth aspect to the, uh, Aspect [given his Newt-like Aliens-style survival and discovery by Asurmen on one of the Dark Eldar cult worlds in Path of the Warrior], so perhaps you might try a more aggressive style of Scorpion? Perhaps a blend between the Incubi and Scorpions, with polearms and Banshee-style Exarch powers rather than infiltrating and stealth.

Waystones, Spirit stones and all
Quick clarification. Eldar wear waystones on their chest. They are always blue [WD127], and absorb the soul of the eldar on their death, protecting them from the depredations of Slaanesh. A Waystone with an eldar soul in it is called a Spirit Stone. [WD127]

Warning, near-baseless supposition ahead! :D
My personal interpretation of that Eldar myth: the Tears of Isha were psychically-charged stones that allowed communication between the Eldar and the Old Ones (the Eldar Pantheon is implied to be such in Xenology), and it's this that the myth recalls. The fact that they can store psychic energy (souls) is pretty much a byproduct, a lucky coincidence, or an intentional way for the Eldar to disembody him/herself.

Why would they do this? Well, we're told that the ancient Eldar were more powerfully psychic (given free reign), and their gods were Warp Entities (assuming Xenology is correct). They were also able to reincarnate, so given those bits of info, I'm guessing that the ancient Eldar were less connected to the Materium, and flitted back and forth between the Sea of Souls and mundane reality.

This interpetation has the happy implications that:
1) They could temporarily inhabit wraithconstruct-like bodies to fight the Necrontyr and C'tan, explaining the 'shining bodies' described in Codex: Necrons (which might of course simply be poetic license it's very easy to read to much into off-hand comments!).
2) The ancient Eldar were sufficiently removed/distance from the galaxy that they didn't stomp humanity flat pre-Old Night etc. (as their height of power would have allowed them to do, if we believe Codex: Eldar).
3) This original strong connection to the Eldar pantheon was lost: metaphorically Asuryan banning communication between Eldar and gods, and perhaps explained in the 'real-world' by the Eldar gradually losing their ability to reincarnate/swim in the sea of souls due to the rise of Slaanesh. The appearance/development of the Waystones would let the Eldar reincarnate without entering the warp just as the Dark Eldar do now (though the Dark Eldar use their body, rather than waystone I my interpretation explains this by the Waystone storage being more 'tasteful and refined'; important to an Eldar!).
4) If the Old Ones/Eldar gods/stirrings in the Warp caused by Eldar souls enjoyed such a connection to the Warp, it explains why Slaanesh had such a connection to them, and why the Eldar gods were wiped out/absorbed by Slaanesh.


General
Chaos eldar existed in RT and, while few in number, were 'amongst the most powerful followers of Chaos' [Slaves to Darkness/The Lost and the Damned]

QUOTE (Ilmarinen)
Various things spring to mind:
1. Slaanesh did REALLY well to get in on the Heresy action, since it was only a few years or decades old!

Yes, there was always a bit of fridge logic about this. That's been sorted out with Slaanesh being simultaneously newborn and eternal, according to the Daemon codex, so popping into an existence of which he/she was already part. :blink:

QUOTE
2. How much did the Dark Eldar vary from their 40K counterparts? When did they strike their bargain with Slaanesh? (Presumably not that long after Slaanesh was 'born')

Quite a bit in terms of appearance, presumably. Like modern Craftworld eldar, their equipment and wargear would have been psychically grown from Wraithbone. The new Dark Eldar codex has their equipment being made mundanely by slaves (so that the Dark Eldar don't have to contact the warp).
In addition, it's implied that M41 Dark Eldar have had to go to greater and greater extremes to keep their souls 'topped up', so immediately post-fall, they might have been more Byronic than as depraved as they became. Basically, slightly more 'arrogant pirate princes' and slightly less 'Hellraiser bondage queens'.

QUOTE
3. I would imagine that there would have been considerably more Exodite worlds at the beginning of the Great Crusade, and they would have been a significant target for the expanding crusade fleets (inhabiting habitable worlds)

From the novels, it seems the Expeditionary fleets just happen upon worlds, rather than targetting them i.e. they can find the presence of planets from interstellar distances, but can't tell much about them until they arrive in-system. This'd imply the Imperium can't target specific planets, to me.

QUOTE
4. There would have been more Craftworlds

Yep, but less developed. WD127 says many Craftworlds were basically just giant trading ships or even fleets at this point, rather than the immense planetoids they became over ten thousand years.

QUOTE
5. When did the Harlequins appear?!

Cegorach, as part of the Eldar pantheon, has existed 'forever'. I imagine his followers are amongst the most ancient groups of Eldar. (Real-world-wise, of course, they were the first Eldar to have rules!)

QUOTE
6. What did the Emperor know about the Fall (did he feel it coming?) and what contact did he have with the Eldar (if any?)

I'm not aware of any background that specifies the first part. Given his seeming omniscience in the Horus Heresy series, I'd be very surprised if he didn't know about the Fall. Given his lack of access to the Eldar Webway and Eldrad's attempt to contact him through Fulgrim, I'm guessing any contact between the Eldar and Humanity was so rare as to be meaningless.

QUOTE
7. Did crusade fleets find crone worlds (distant from the Eye) and how did they react?

WD127 implies the Crone Worlds are simply the oldest Eldar-owned planets (contrast to the expansion Maiden worlds).
Given that these worlds were the heart of the Eldar empire, and thus consumed by Slaanesh during the fall, it's commonly taken as synonymous for worlds in the Eye of Terror and other warp-materium interfaces these permanent storms presumably being created by critical masses of dying Eldar the worlds inhabited by 'things no longer Eldar or sane'. So, if any Crone Worlds were found distant from the eye, they'd either be uninhabited (not enough Eldar, but those there died) or in warpstorms.
In answer to your question, I'd presume that they'd only be able to access the uninhabited ones, which would be colonised as normal, the ruins simply being interesting tourist spots ;) or bulldozed down.
Tallarn and Haran might be such uninhabited Crone Worlds, given their buried Eldar artefacts and pleasant climates (in M31, of course!), and the Gothic sector is also a good site to search, given the presence of the Blackstone Fortresses (presuming that the Eldar built them here... a counter-argument might be that the Gothic sector was a Necrontyr stronghold, and the Blackstones abandoned here simply because they'd served their purpose).

QUOTE
8. Were there any battles between Primarchs and Phoenix Lords? :blink:

Not that we know of.

ShroudFilm - March 4, 2011 10:57 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Apologist @ Mar 4 2011, 10:30 AM)
Not that we know of.

Yet.

Apologist - March 4, 2011 11:01 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Mar 4 2011, 10:57 AM)
Yet.

'It's as though ten thousand geeks cried out in fury, and then were suddenly complaining vociferously on Warseer.'

:P

Isn't that going to be a bit one-sided? The reason Phoenix Lords are bad-ass Mutha Hubbards in 40k is that they've got 10,000 years of souls built up in them. At the time of the Fall, they'll just be dead 'ard aspect warriors.

malika - March 4, 2011 11:13 AM (GMT)
The Fall just happened, so I would also imagine them a lot weaker and more erm...well desperate. They might still be aggressive when needed, but I guess they would primarily avoid combat. I think it would be during the Horus Heresy that the Eldar would go more on the offensive.

As for the Exodites, I think that during the Great Crusade the Exodites just landed on their new worlds and are probably in the middle of war against the Imperium and other aliens.

Whitehorn - March 4, 2011 11:32 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Apologist @ Mar 4 2011, 11:01 AM)
Mutha Hubbards

Nothing's gonna stand in our way.

Excellent read Ed and thought stirring to say the least. We've got some lovely ideas growing here.

I've been inspired by John Gravato's rendering of Baharroth and think I'll be rolling with some armour concepts along Azkaellon's idea.

user posted image

Apologist - March 4, 2011 12:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (malika @ Mar 4 2011, 11:13 AM)
As for the Exodites, I think that during the Great Crusade the Exodites just landed on their new worlds and are probably in the middle of war against the Imperium and other aliens.

Exodites headed quite a bit before, apparently [WD127]. They weren't as badly affected by the birth of Slaanesh because of their lifestyle choices (i.e. they had rejected their naturally psychic ways and relied on their hands).

malika - March 4, 2011 12:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Apologist @ Mar 4 2011, 12:09 PM)
Exodites headed quite a bit before, apparently [WD127]. They weren't as badly affected by the birth of Slaanesh because of their lifestyle choices (i.e. they had rejected their naturally psychic ways and relied on their hands).

They headed off earlier, but once the Fall occurred they were also affected by it; not as bad as the Craftworlders or those who remained on the homeworlds, but they still suffered losses nonetheless.

The Fall of the Eldar Empire created a power vacuum, humanity started to spread across the stars.The Eldar no longer had the capabilities to hold off the other alien races. I can imagine that in the early years following the Fall the Exodites would have had a hard time surviving. It would only be after the Imperium's growth came to a stop (Horus Heresy) and the Craftworlds became more consolidated that their lives would become somewhat safer.

lord_caldera - March 4, 2011 01:34 PM (GMT)
Just some of my disorganized thoughts:

I think the Exodites and early Craftworlds would have been focused on surviving so would not have been developing many technologies, weapons, fighting styles, etc until somewhat after the Fall. They would not have had to deal with humanity so much until the Crusade really got going, and then they probably could have avoided them for the most part unless a fleet stumbled upon an Exodite world or Craftworld and decided to smite them some xenos.

They would have had much more to worry about the Orks, since Orks are to be found just about anywhere and have an innate grasp of technology and would like nothing more than to get into a good fight. I think certain aspects, such as the Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, which are comparatively rare and specialize in high volumes of fire combined with maveuverability, may have forced development along these lines to fight Ork hordes specifically.

Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons and Shining Spears would have forced development because of the increasing threat of the heavily armed and armored Space Marines. Certainly Maugan-Ra ended up someplace closer to Terra with the destruction of Altansar in the shockwave of the Eye of Terror opening.

malika - March 4, 2011 08:35 PM (GMT)
Did Muegan Ra develop the aspect before of after Altansar got sucked into the Eye?

lord_caldera - March 4, 2011 09:14 PM (GMT)
The 4th edition codex seems to indicate before:
"...[Altansar Craftworld] was subsequently caught in the gravity well of the Eye of Terror...within five hundred years of the Fall their craftworld was swallowed into the warp. Not a soul escaped its clutches but for the Phoenix Lord known as Maugan Ra..."
It goes on to say that Maugan Ra created the Maugetar while studying at the Shrine of Asur, and later the Dark Reaper aspect. The Shrine of Asur was established by Asurmen immediately after the Fall.

Azkaellon - March 5, 2011 12:49 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Their weapons were ornate artefacts of the time before the Fall....The next had armour of black,sculpted of golden bones, his helm a red-eyed skull, the image of Death itself, a scythed shuriken cannon in its grip.
path of the warrior pg 327

QUOTE
In the time following the Fall.........Asurmen led a handful of his followers to a barren world free of distraction and temptation. Here Asurmen founded the Shrine of Asur. Dedicating his life to the preservation of the domain of Asuryan, king of the gods and arbiter of heaven. Asuremen taught his followers that they must give up their love of the gods, for indulgence had led to decadence and wickedness. The destructive impulses of Khaine had to be tempered with wisdom, and so Asurmen taught his followers how to forget the joy of slaying and the thrill of battle. At the temple shrine of Asur, his pupils each developed their own fighting technique, channelling only a part of the Bloody-Handed God's rage.They were the Asurya, the first Exarchs. When the treachery of Arhra destroyed the Temple shrine of Asur, the Asurya escaped to the craftworlds to found new shrines to pass on their disciplines of war. The Asurya created the path of the warrior and would be known in the ages to come as the Phoenix Lords...
path of the warrior pg 343-344


I think its safe to say at the moment that the Phoenix Lords that we know about were the original students on the path of the warrior at the shrine of Asur

incidentally could we get a side look at the weapons on these guys? ;)
user posted image

GooseDaMoose - March 22, 2011 10:06 PM (GMT)
These look great Doghouse! I never even thought of PH Eldar looking at all different (but then, I'm a young 'un). They're impressive though, well done!

lord_caldera - March 23, 2011 07:33 PM (GMT)
I was looking at my Eldar codex today and I noticed something in the bestiary section. The order of the Aspect Warrior entries is not alphabetical or by FOC selection, but it begins with Dire Avengers followed by Howling Banshees, with Warp Spiders and Shining Spears appearing last. Could this be deliberate to outline the order of the founding of the Aspects? Making it Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears.

What do you guys think?




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