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Title: Death Guard
Description: Pre-heresy list ideas

Ilmarinen - February 3, 2011 10:40 AM (GMT)
I could do with some help trying to come up with a reasonable list for my new Death Guard pre-heresy army.

The basics are likely to include:

Captain (Mk3) in Artificer armour with Relic blade (sword) and Storm Shield (but could consider alternatives).
Command Squad (Mk3) with Apothecary, Standard and 4 PGs.

2 Tactical Squads (Mk2) with PG and ML.
1 Assault Squad (Mk2) without jump packs, with 2 PPs (possibly).

1 Ironclad Dreadnought with Hurricane Bolter, Chainfist and Heavy Flamer in a Termite (c/a drop pod).
1 Sternguard Squad (Mk4) with PF and 3 combimeltas, probably in a Termite.
1 Assault Terminator Squad with 3 TH/SS and 2 LCs (eventually in a Land Raider Redeemer).

1 Vanguard Squad (Mk3) with Relic blade (scythe) 3 Storm shields and possibly a couple of Thunder hammers? Also 2 Melta bombs.

1 Predator with AC and LC sponsons.
1 Vindicator.
1 Thunderfire Cannon.

Not sure how many points this comes to yet - I'm more trying to decide on the mix of weapons and how the squads look. Comments welcomed. :)

Ilmarinen - February 4, 2011 09:10 AM (GMT)
Been thinking about this some more, and looking at the various codexes to try and figure out what would represent the 'infantryman' style associated with the Death Guard.

C:SW can certainly do a reasonable footslogging list - the extra chainsword and counterattack help a lot - but I don't think the other rules work very well.

C:BA provides a bit more resilence to a footslogging list due to Sanguinary Priests (which mimics 40K Death Guard in a way) but again the other aspects don't work.

C:SM seems to work best as a mech army, with squads hiding in rhinos in the middle of the board for most of the game. However, I am liking the TGC rules which make bolters assault 2 or heavy 3. Has anyone playtested this and how did it work out? For clarification, is it 12" range assault 2 then 24" range heavy 3? (I'll post this question in the rules development thread too).

With the change to the bolters, plasma guns don't work very well in tac squads and it's worth sticking with assault weapons. Allowing the tac squad to assault after firing (even though they only have 2 attacks) would suggest that flamers are probably a better option, as you'll have to be in charge range anyway. I guess the 24" range shots synergise well with multimeltas (which are shown in Collected Visions!).

I'm now thinking that the assault squad's main purpose is as an interception and sacrificial unit (that can contest objectives if it survives), so just a couple of flamers seems sensible. I might give them meltabombs to make them a threat to vehicles that stay stationary.

Thoughts welcome.

Feytor - February 4, 2011 11:44 AM (GMT)
Maybe give black templars a try? Terminators with cyclones....(which are shown in Collected Visions... ;) )

Ilmarinen - February 4, 2011 04:20 PM (GMT)
Hmm, hadn't thought of BT - but now that I do, I'm not sure the BT special rules work either.

I guess I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and take the good units that everyone else takes from C:SM! At least they seem to be more fluffy for DG than WS.

I really am rambling in this thread...! :rolleyes:

I've been 'researching' on the interwebs and I've realised that some of my thoughts above are useless. Think I'll be returning the ironclad hurricane bolter arm and it definitely does not want a chainfist!

And I think I'll have to stick with a few rhinos, rather than all footslogging. At least there are some pics of DG rhinos in Collected Visions.

Whitehorn - February 4, 2011 06:21 PM (GMT)
What stands out most in C:SM for me are Sternguard backed up by Kantor and or Lysander. Ignoring their names and badges, the rules are great for representing a relentless footslogging army, laying down a lot of bolter fire.

Lysander's bolter drill lets any squad he joins reroll their bolt weapon shots, while Kantor allows Sternguard to be a troops choice. This gives you the best scoring troops possible, all with powerful bolters and strong combat prowess.

They are obviously expensive taken together, so chosing just one would be a point of preference.

Ilmarinen - February 7, 2011 02:55 PM (GMT)
So much depends on whether I'm using the army with the full C:SM or whether I'm designing it to go with the TGC ruleset that's being developed.

Sternguard lose a lot of potency in PH games because they lose their Hellfire and Vengeance ammo. Then add the proposed DG special rule that bolters can be either Assault 2 or Heavy 3 and Sternguard lose even more.

I'm tempted by Vanguard, but they're really expensive, particularly compared to the few extra points you have to add to get terminators.

Another problem is that the Index Astartes fluff doesn't match the Collected Visions artwork, particularly the bit about having few tanks (many of the Fellblades are DG!) and not having separate tactical and assault squads (which are clearly shown in the artwork).

Writing army lists is one of my least favourite parts of this hobby! I never seem to pick the right things. :rolleyes:

Whitehorn - February 7, 2011 03:05 PM (GMT)
Lists should never be a stress.

Build the army the way you want it and worry about how it works on paper later.

If you go for a Sternguard heavy force now, there's no reason why they can't be regular Tactical marines using TGC rules later.

Vanguard are a very poor unit. Ridiculously expensive for the small advantage they offer.

Ilmarinen - February 7, 2011 04:49 PM (GMT)
I always find lists a stress! Although I think the main problem is my limited choice of units based on what I built (in a mad rush) for SoT.

It's a real shame about the Vanguard vets, because I could make a really interesting unit from them (...that would cost far too much!). Guess I'll have another look at Command Squads.

NeDlol - February 12, 2011 05:32 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Whitehorn @ Feb 4 2011, 06:21 PM)
Kantor allows Sternguard to be a troops choice. This gives you the best scoring troops possible, all with powerful bolters and strong combat prowess.

Kantor only makes them a scoring unit not a troops choice IIRC.

One idea that I think has potential for a DG force would be using Calgar for a HQ choice and taking a pair of 10 man strong terminator squads with cyclones as the core hitting power behind the force.

The reasoning for Calgar is purely because of the fact your entire force can stand there and say "sorry, I don't care what you think you think is going to happen, but we're not budging" and thats incredibly DG if you ask me ;)

The twenty terminators give you sixty move and fire combi-bolter shots and each model has a re-roll because he's armed with a twin-linked bolter, you've also got the option to combat squad the terminators into five man units. If you were to combat squad them I'd suggest you go for 4 + Sergeant and then 3 + cyclones, giving you one terminator squad and a 2+ save move and shoot devastator squad armed with 4 missile launchers and 3 shot bolters.

The only problem is without chainfists this comes to 1170 points. If you're playing 1500 point games then budgeting in scoring units can be a real ache in the balls, but if you're playing at 1750, 1850 or 2000 then in my honest opinion it gives you probably one of the most stubborn forces you can encounter from the codex using the PH rules we've got.

Another upside to the force is getting to go to town detailing every terminator, from using a whole plethora of parts (forgeworld DG boddies, chaos parts and maxmini shoulders). This means each model you make can have its complete own character.

Thats just my idea tho :)

Ilmarinen - February 13, 2011 10:08 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the suggestion, but an all-terminator army is a bit too points-intensive for me!

Having chatted to some TGCers over the weekend, I've come up with the following 1500 point list using C:BA:

Captain Tycho (gives the army Ld10)
Sanguinary Priest (gives a FNP bubble)
2 Tactical Squads with Flamer and Lascannon (footslogging)
Assault Squad (10) with 2 Meltaguns and a Thunder Hammer
Scout Squad (5) with Missile Launcher
Stormraven with twin MM and Extra Armour (adds some speed and support firepower)
Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer
Vanguard Squad (5) with Jump Packs, a Thunder Hammer, 2 Melta Bombs and 3 Storm Shields

I think the army will be quite resilient, with a decent number of scoring units and variety of capabilities.

Ilmarinen - February 14, 2011 09:00 AM (GMT)
I think I'll drop the scout squad and add a second Sanguinary Priest (with Jump Pack) to boost the Assault Squad a bit. :)

Whitehorn - February 14, 2011 09:25 AM (GMT)
NeDlol is correct :D

Looks an interesting list Ben. I'm a big fan of porting a Codex to use in creative ways, so it's fun to see how you're adapting this. I look forward to having a bash at them!

Hero of Istvaan - February 14, 2011 09:25 AM (GMT)
lol i told you there would be something better than those scouts to put in ;)

Ilmarinen - February 14, 2011 10:04 AM (GMT)
Hehe, yep! :)

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