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Title: The Firebird
Description: Resurrecting those old ideas...


Brother-Captain Basilus - November 27, 2010 09:21 PM (GMT)
So here I am again wondering whether to build myself a nice and shiny Firebird for my beloved Fulgrim... :ph43r:

Some of you may remember that I started working on it a long time ago, but in the end motivation faded and the project failed.

But seeing the leaked Stormraven pic I thought about giving this lovely piece of aircraft another try. No, I will not be using the Sormraven kit as it appears to be way too small, but it was the idea that got me hooked again ;)
So without further ado here's my take on proper rules ( I actually used the old VCRs and increased the points a bit):



QUOTE

The Firebird  ---------- 610 Points

Vehicle Type: Super Heavy Flyer

AV: Front 12 Side 12 Rear 12

Structure Points: 2

BF: 4

Void Shields: 2

Weapons:
- 2 Hunter-Killer Missiles
- 2 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters
- 1 Twin-linked Lascannon
- 1 Blast Master Cannon


The Blast Master Cannon is an experimental weapon crafted by the Emperor's Children Techmarines and designed by the Primarch himself. It is a sonic weapon with devastating power.
The Blast Master Cannon has the following profiles:

Range 48" S9 AP2 Heavy D3, Small Blast

Range 24" S6 AP3 Heavy 3D3, Pinning


Special Rules:
Dropship: The Firebird has a transport capacity of up to 25 infantry models. Models equipped with Jump Packs or Terminator Armour count as 2 models. If there are less than 16 infantry models (i.e 15 or less) being transported, The Firebird may also carry a single Dreadnought of whatever sort.

Bird of Prey: The Firebird has a single Assault Ramp in the front and two large doors at its sides. Any Dreadnought carried by the Firebird is transported in clamps in the back of the flyer, counting as emerging from an Assault Ramp when disembarking.

Ceramite Plating: Melta weapons only roll a single D6 when rolling for armour penetration.



Aaand here's a short explanation:

It's large, it's a plane, and it's almost as capable as a Thunderhawk (I just can't see it as beeing the size of a huge Stormbird). That's why I made it a SHF with 2 structure points and AV12 all around.
Its crew are Space Marines, therefore it had to have BF4. The 2 void shields are there because it's the personal dropship of an Astartes Pimarch and as such it has to be protected a little better than your average gunship.
The anti-Melta rule is actually included in the Stormraven and the Thunderhawk profile, so I thought it would fit in pretty well.
The weapon array is not as fearsome as a Thunderhawks but the BMC gives it some extra power to punch in.
And last but not least the transport capacity: I think 25 models is okay, it's not as much as a Thunderhawk but more than a little Stormraven can carry. In the first place it's meant to carry a Dreadnought, Fulgrim and his honour guard, so there will never actually be 25 Space Marines running out of this thing.



That's it from me, I hope you can give me your opinion on my take.


C&C very appreciated, thanks in advance B)

TyraelVladinhurst - November 27, 2010 11:31 PM (GMT)
i like, but the book described it as large so maybe add in this:
Large Target: Because of its size and relative speed for atmospheric flight shooting attacks against the Firbird are made using the firer’s normal BS rather than hitting on 6s.

lord_caldera - November 28, 2010 03:45 AM (GMT)
I like it, particularly the sonic cannon rules. I think it is severely undercosted for what you gave it though, this sucker will be nigh-impossible to take down through the void shields and the flat-out save should you use it. Even as it is the Thunderhawk costs 300 points more and from what I've heard is one of the most annoying things to damage. Also, if the Dreadnought is transported via clamps why would the other transport capacity drop? Sounds like a cool project though.

@Tyrael, none of the other superheavy fliers have a large target rule, and this doesn;t seem much larger than a Thunderhawk. At the same time though maybe the gaudiness of it would draw more fire, so perhaps weapons could count as twin-linked against it? I don't really feel the need for enemy shooting to be aided by the presence of this.

TyraelVladinhurst - November 28, 2010 04:45 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (lord_caldera @ Nov 28 2010, 03:45 AM)
I like it, particularly the sonic cannon rules. I think it is severely undercosted for what you gave it though, this sucker will be nigh-impossible to take down through the void shields and the flat-out save should you use it. Even as it is the Thunderhawk costs 300 points more and from what I've heard is one of the most annoying things to damage. Also, if the Dreadnought is transported via clamps why would the other transport capacity drop? Sounds like a cool project though.

@Tyrael, none of the other superheavy fliers have a large target rule, and this doesn;t seem much larger than a Thunderhawk. At the same time though maybe the gaudiness of it would draw more fire, so perhaps weapons could count as twin-linked against it? I don't really feel the need for enemy shooting to be aided by the presence of this.

actually in the tempusfugitives rules the stormbird has it and the firebird is basically a smaller stormbird so it makes since. also the tau manta has it as well

Uzthizzar, Librarian-Sorceror - November 28, 2010 01:54 PM (GMT)
I'm back (again) to comment!

These rules seem pretty balanced; the heavy points cost negates the overkill weaponry. However, the Blast Master Cannon sounds just a little too powerful - it has possibly four lascannon shots in one turn with no penalty, unlike the Land Raider Terminatus and the other fire mode is more powerful than a Punisher Gatling Cannon, potentially taking out 18 Marines on a 2+ with no armour save.

In my opinion, I would make the second fire mode reduced to Str 5. ;)

Yours,
Uzthizz

Brother-Captain Basilus - November 28, 2010 02:21 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the input guys B)

@Tyrael: Because I will make it as large as a Thunderhawk I will not add an extra rule to make shooting at it that much easier. It would be way too easy to take down a vehicle with AV12 when you're hitting with you're normal BS, even if it has 2 Void Shields.

@lord_caldera: So how much should I increase it in points cost? Using the VCR it only costed about 500!.
And also, maybe if you know ahead of the battle that you don't need to take a Dreadnought in you could imagine that they throw in some extra "section" or "container" to the aircraft allowing it to carry more troops.

@Uzthizzar: Yes, that is a pretty valid point ;) The first firing mode was created using the VCR as well, I "bought" a Blastmaster, made it a Mega Weapon (+1S -1AP) as well as a Gatling Weapon (for every one shot it makes D3 instead). That weapon alone costs like 120 points on its own.

The only problem is that the original Blastmaster has two firing modes (S8 AP3 Heavy 1, Small Blast or S5 AP4 Heavy 2, Pinning). At first I didn't think about the second one, but later I realised that if I upgraded the weapon, the second firing mode also had to be modified in the same way, thus making it S6 AP3 and Heavy 2D3, Pinning.



So what's your opinion on this, should I drop the second firing mode of the cannon or leave it as is?

And as a second question, who else thinks the points cost is too low?

TyraelVladinhurst - November 28, 2010 02:32 PM (GMT)
it'd be alright if the large target thing was added i think, also the reason i suggested it... balance issue

Brother-Captain Basilus - November 28, 2010 06:59 PM (GMT)
Counting enemy weapons as twin-linked when shooting at the Firebird is IMO the best solution, I think I'll be going with that one.

Magos Explorator - November 28, 2010 10:37 PM (GMT)
Welcome back. :)

Uzthizzar, Librarian-Sorceror - November 29, 2010 07:04 PM (GMT)
@Magos: I assume you're talking to me, so thanks :)

Yes, I have to agree that Twin-linked is a good idea and as for the gun, you cadd a BS point and keep the gun as the same. The justification for the increase in BS is that you would think that a Primarch's personal ship would have decent gunnery crews, but this would increase the points slightly..

Uzthizzar, Librarian-Sorceror - December 8, 2010 05:37 PM (GMT)
Just recently had a sudden thought;

The Master of the Ravenwing in 40k can be mounted in a Land Speeder that effectively is a flying Land Raider (AV 14 all round)....so your Firebird is less armoured than him?

Brother-Captain Basilus - December 8, 2010 06:20 PM (GMT)
You can't really compare them, one is an antigrav speeder that goes down more quickly than one can say "Fallen!" and the other one is a flyer with 2 void shields and structure points ;)

If any flyer had AV14 it would be nearly impossible to take it down.

Apologist - December 9, 2010 10:16 AM (GMT)
Overall, the rules look cool – as does the WIP model I just took a gander at :)

One thing does slightly bother me, and that's the presence of a sonic cannon on a space-capable craft...

Brother-Captain Basilus - December 9, 2010 11:45 AM (GMT)
Good point, I never thought about that :lol:

Well, let's just assume it never fires its main cannon in space ^^

*EC spaceships and The Firebird attack an Iron Hands vessel*
*Fulgrim: Fire!*
*Cannon does nothing*
*Fulgrim: D'oh*

*Nelson in Iron Hands armour: HA HA!*

Uzthizzar, Librarian-Sorceror - December 23, 2010 08:46 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Brother-Captain Basilus @ Dec 8 2010, 06:20 PM)
...the other one is a flyer with 2 void shields and structure points ;)

Oh yeah, sorry about that; somehow forgot that your Firebird had two Structure Points and Void Shields.
>.<

Do we know exactly when the Emperor's Children started using Sonic weaponry?

+++ +++ +++

P.S. Apologist , saw you over on the B&C Forum ;) nice to know other people from the the Great Crusade are over there.

Apologist - January 5, 2011 03:30 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Brother-Captain Basilus @ Dec 8 2010, 06:20 PM)

Do we know exactly when the Emperor's Children started using Sonic weaponry?

I think there's a bit in Fulgrim where the marines start using orchestral instruments as weaponry, so the germs of the 'modern-day' sonic blaster et al. was there from the corruption of the Legion.


QUOTE
.S. Apologist , saw you over on the B&C Forum ;) nice to know other people from the the Great Crusade are over there.

Yeah, I post over there a bit, but find it a bit tournament gaming-focussed for my taste. :)

Uzthizzar, Librarian-Sorceror - January 16, 2011 10:43 AM (GMT)
@ Sonic weaponry: Thanks for that. Do you think that Fulgrim would still use the Firebird after turning to Chaos?

@ B&C: Yeah, but the DIY Chapter section is quite interesting. I usually go there for all my non-PH 40k needs. :)




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