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Title: Imperial Knights

King Fluff - September 29, 2010 11:15 AM (GMT)
So my next project (alongside everything else and a very big project announcement coming soon)

I am working on some knights for 40K.

Now there are a lot out there already that work with the defiler kit, now these look great but I always thought they were a bit of a compromise - easily obtained parts and similar function but unfortunately I'm a member of the scale police and I always thought that a knight should be SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than a warhound. With the release of FW's mega dread I realised that the scale for this class of vehicle had been set (12cm or 5" according to FW).

Enter the Fluff pattern knight.

I intend the knight to use the upper torso of the Slaughterer of Khorne as the starting point - looks like a titan pattern of armour, has the shoulder guards and the domed detail on top. Now contrary to existing fan fluff I would argue the pilot sits inside the torso and uses the head as a sensor array, as oppose to sitting in the head (which leads to consequent scale issues) the slaughterer already has a crew access hatch at the rear and so makes complete sense to me.

The legs will be custom made and will take inspiration from a combo of the reavers thighs and the warhounds shins with wrap around shielding on the legs and a single toe at the front (I'm hoping that the warhound small rear toe will fit this role perfectly)

some initial sketches of the idea.....

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what do you guys think - am I wasting my time? would others be interested in being 'shown' how to make these?

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 11:25 AM (GMT)
Here's a scale shot for you.

The armour plates are a ncie idea, but the BS model is a little too Chaos and possibly too small.

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Gagoc TheAncient - September 29, 2010 12:10 PM (GMT)
King Fluff; I've got pics of a Knight Titan someone entered into Golden Demon.
They're in the GD thread.

Sorry there's really no height comparison shots, but if I remember rightly it was an inch or two taller than your scale, about 6 or 7 inches including missile pod.

Though I do think the Mega Dread is a good size comparison as they look to have similar sized torso's.

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 12:37 PM (GMT)
Mega Dread scale

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Blood Slaughterer

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Marine dread being the common factor, you may just pull it off using the BS torso.

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 12:51 PM (GMT)
Lunch time..

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King Fluff - September 29, 2010 02:32 PM (GMT)
wow - gotta love lunchtime diversion tactics :P

It's always difficult to tell how big a model is from the FW shots because of the angle they shoot them at but looking at the shots the BS is a little on the small side although I do intent to modify it quite heavily in order to 'convert' it at a later date.

I kinda picture the knight to be a more slender - less bulky design than the mega dread so hopefully it should all come together.

In any case I think this scale is far more representative of the function and role of the vehicle rather than the 10" defiler based bad boys that are kicking around the net.

The head will hopefully be a bulked out version of the space marine helmet from the inquisitor range.

The next issue will be rules sets, can't remeber what the TF rules were now but looking at the BoLS lords of battle, the apoc rules used for knights are crazy for something of this scale, a battle cannon with a dread CC weapon would be ideal, with no structure points (or 1) but 1 void shield would be ok but generally it's a walking tank rather than 3/4 of a titan.

if anyone knows of any good rules to play test for them please let me know. ;)
As soon as the package from FW arrives it will be all hands to deck. :D

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 02:44 PM (GMT)
As my chief playtester, I'd happily write you some rules ;)

King Fluff - September 29, 2010 11:10 PM (GMT)
Go go buffalo - do some for next week and I'll find a suitable proxy :-)

Whitehorn - September 30, 2010 07:56 AM (GMT)
Proxy proxy proxy.

Stick to TS v IH next week 'til we get some Knight models done.

Still want to try that mini campaign using knight agri-world wars :lol:

King Fluff - December 16, 2010 06:44 PM (GMT)
ok so a little progress....ack too many projects on the go - I feel a busy christmas coming on. :rolleyes:

so heres a blu-tac'd version so far, bear in mind there needs to be a connector between upper and lower leg which will have the pivot for the knee pad on it. also feet which may elevate it slightly - also if it's not coming in on size then I'm still able to add a little height where the lower and upper torso connect. But I think it will be pretty spot on when done - I'm already considering how to adapt the original pattern to use as subjegators for chaos and how to bulk it out to be a Warden class.......all in the pipeline once I can 'produce' these.

so some pics and a scale shot with my WIP logan Grimnar.

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C&C welcome as I know this may be a bit radical considering how many warhound sized knight conversions there are out there based on the defiler kit - as yet I've only used a very small proportion of the defiler in the build but the leg armour will also be modded defiler when it's complete.

Whitehorn - December 16, 2010 07:08 PM (GMT)
Nice to see a more accurately scaled model, which also looks like the real deal.

ephrael - December 16, 2010 07:58 PM (GMT)
Looks good so far. Have you thought about using the Big FW marine's helmet as a head. It might look a little better than the 54mm one.

BigWill - December 16, 2010 08:04 PM (GMT)
This knight is going to look great.
The FW head is a real good idea,another is maybe the old armorcast pieces.

King Fluff - December 16, 2010 08:16 PM (GMT)
Thanks Horn ;)

I had considered both the FW head and the sideshow head but with a 40 - 100 price tag just for a head I thought I might stick with the 54mm head I've already got :P

Seriously though the head isn't supposed to be a cockpit so it can be smaller and the 54mm head is eactly the same size and proportions as the original blood slaughterer head so i think it should work ok with a slight modification and reworking.

Just need to consider weapons now, was possibly thinking about a destoyer tank hunter cannon as the cannon arm and i will use the existing bloodcrusher combat arm and modify it into a chainsword type arm.

ephrael - December 16, 2010 08:36 PM (GMT)
I see what you mean about the price of the heads. I do happen to know someone with an unused FW helmet that is just sitting around. PM me if you want it and I'll send it out for free, I seriously don't need it and would like to help out other people's projects. Keep us updated on your progress.

Whitehorn - December 16, 2010 09:27 PM (GMT)
I'll sculpt you one :P

King Fluff - December 17, 2010 09:31 PM (GMT)
ok so I think I've solved the foot and head issues I was having - I had a Mag-Knight from Megablocks in my bits box left over from my half finished Death Dealer of Khorne project - and the head and feet are absolutely perfect for the project. A littl e cutting and repositioning and the main build will be complete. Just the cannon arm and the cowling to sort out now. pics asap.

King Fluff - December 17, 2010 10:38 PM (GMT)
pics of head very much WIP

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DaemonlordAbraxes - December 18, 2010 02:18 AM (GMT)
The head looks cool! Keep up the good work!

Magos Explorator - December 18, 2010 02:59 AM (GMT)
It's an interesting build, goes together nicely. I look forward to seeing the completed article.

ShroudFilm - December 18, 2010 03:24 AM (GMT)
Excellent work - the head fits perfectly with the carapace!

King Fluff - December 19, 2010 09:52 PM (GMT)
Ok so I have some rules for these guys now - for all patterns. I think they're pretty balanced but C&C would be welcomed - I've hashed together the Ork Mega-Dread rules and the Imperial Guard Leman Russ stats. Knight come out a little more expensive than both but has some nice touches I think.

had to save as an image - hopefully it's clear enough. :D

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Whitehorn - December 19, 2010 10:04 PM (GMT)
Patience is a virtue.

King Fluff - December 19, 2010 10:25 PM (GMT)
pre-cognition is a talent

lord_caldera - December 19, 2010 11:32 PM (GMT)
Knight Warden is the god of S5.

King Fluff - December 20, 2010 10:58 AM (GMT)
legs are now all but done - feet are complete and the greaves are half cut ready for detailing etc. I've taken the greave design from the warhound and will add a similar knee pad to that of the reaver, bit of a Frankenstein's monster of a walker but hopefully it will look 'new' whilst also fitting with other ranges. :ph43r:

Cloud Runner - December 20, 2010 01:23 PM (GMT)
Quick point about the knight errant.

Currently, switching from a dread CCW to a power fist is actulaly a downgrade.

Dread CCW's have the same benefit as a powerfist, but strike at normal initiative

Also, I thought the Knight Lancer still had the battlecannon and the Crusader was slower than it's counterparts, much the same as the warden.

Perhaps the follwoing tweak may be suggested?

Warden & Crusader, no special rules, but get extra armour in base cost.

Paladin, Errant and Baron get mvoe through cover.

Lancers also get fleet, to fit their higher speed role.

Just some diversity ideas absed upon the odl knight household rules from EPIC.

Build looking awesome as well!

The Red Sorcerer - December 20, 2010 02:19 PM (GMT)
A few points going by the old Knights in Epic -
The Knight Lancer does indeed retain the battlecannon, and is faster than the standard knight.
The Crusader and Castelan were slower than the standard knight but more heavily armoured. The Crusader had twin lascannon (as per the rules you posted) and the Castellan had a gatling autocannon. Both had a lighter version of the Quake Cannon (usually mounted on Titans).
The Knight Errant's 'Power Gauntlet' was an improvement over the standard Knight CCW, rather than a downgrade.
All Knights had a 'Shock Lance' (essentially an electrical discharge from the Knights visor), which boosted their combat ability, but only when they charged into combat. The Knights Lancer (and Baron) also had a 'Power Lance' i.e. the one mounted on the arm.

King Fluff - December 20, 2010 03:57 PM (GMT)
all good points.

I wanted to keep some sort of simplicity with the rules i.e. one knight profile with different armaments which then creates the different patterns/roles. I didn't really look at the epic rules (never really played it either) I just went with the look of the original models. I really hate the thought of the visor laser type jobby (lance) but I guess when the head isn't a cockpit it makes it more possible, not sure whether I like the idea though, I thought a lance would be more like a rough rider's hunting lance - something to poke big lizards with ;)

The base stats are taken from the Mega-Dread as I wanted something comparable for Imperial players.

the USR's are a good idea - might need to tweak the sheet to fit on an entry per pattern - or may include it in their options section.

So opinion on power fist over CCW, should it add +D6 AP? would that make it more beefy or too beefy?

also not heard of castellan - thought that was a robot - any pics anywhere?

would three different class of vehicles be in order i.e. troops, fast attack and heavy support?

Whitehorn - December 20, 2010 04:18 PM (GMT)
I wouldn't spread them across the FOC. They're large, weapon-heavy constructs. That sort of things stays in Heavy Support unless it flies.

With now 7 different names floating around, it's best to split the profiles. if you look at some of the ideas I put forward (the rules I wrote for ya!) and the backgrounds, it's clear each class can't really fit on one base body. At minimum, it would be Lancer, Warden, Palladin (inc Errant) and heavy Palladin (Crusader, Castellon).

For the gauntlet, +1 to damage table / penetrate seems reasonable.

ShroudFilm - December 20, 2010 04:30 PM (GMT)
Aye, in anything short of an Apocalypse game you don't want whole armies just made of Knights! Best to keep them Heavy Support regardless of type.

Whitehorn - December 20, 2010 04:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Dec 20 2010, 04:30 PM)
Aye, in anything short of an Apocalypse game you don't want whole armies just made of Knights! Best to keep them Heavy Support regardless of type.

And of course, tons of Skitarii! :D

The Red Sorcerer - December 20, 2010 05:29 PM (GMT)
The Knight Castellan was the same body as the Crusader, just with a different weapon on the right arm - see here. And there were Castellan class robots as well - theres some info on them in the Titan Legions thread.

As for Knight 'Classes', in Epic the Paladin/Errant had identical 'base' stats (i.e. speed, armour), as did the Crusader/Castellan. The Lancer and Baron had the same speed, but the Baron had better armour. I'd group the Warden with the Crusader/Castellan - they had been removed from the game by the time of the more 'modern' Knight models, but their essential role (heavier, slower and better armoured than the 'standard' Paladins) is shared with the Crusader/Castellan.

Lunasteve - December 20, 2010 10:42 PM (GMT)
looking good mate, like how its coming on! cant comment on the rules as i havnt got a clue :)


King Fluff - December 21, 2010 10:01 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Whitehorn @ Dec 20 2010, 04:18 PM)
I wouldn't spread them across the FOC. They're large, weapon-heavy constructs. That sort of things stays in Heavy Support unless it flies.

LOL - wasn't suggesting that they go into a FOC as such more their kind of roles within a heavy support slot so the USR and the loadouts reflect their role either hard hitting and armoured, all rounder or fast with light armour. So three distinct different 'types' of engine (troop/fast attack/heavy support) :lol:

Some really good ideas so far in terms of rules but I think I'm getting confused between the original knights and the later editions (where the Baron was introduced?) I think the later more simpler classification era may be better to use as a starting point.

On a build note I managed to take out all of the pipe work at the rear of the torso so now it's ready for whatever I decide to put in there (was thinking of perhaps doing a couple of slot in section so the torso can be used as paladin/baron/warden - so plain, with banner mount and with weapon cuppola. (or should I just stick to the paladin for now?)

Good point Whitehorn - would the knight households also have skiitari? would they be similar to the collegia titanica skiitari?

also cut the other greave - they match (which is a good thing) and now need a little detailing - should I follow the warhound principle and do one detailed and the other plain or both plain or both detailed? :blink:

Whitehorn - December 21, 2010 10:11 AM (GMT)
When not roaming their agri-worlds, or such groups as the Knights of Taranis on Mars, the Knights are sent to support when larger titans aren't available (or threat too small?). Since the Mechanicum was equally active as the Imperium and the mechanicum worked alongside the Imperium in battle, I see no reason why Skitarii forces wouldn't be in the same battles as Knights. Heck, the fluff you put in the image states the Knights are brought to the world by Mechanicum Tech Priests and serve them :)

In regards to the Martian (or other forgeworld houses) knights, there's strong enough cause to put them in the same army.

For these reasons, and our preferred era, I was considering dropping the 'Imperial' prefix to knights. If anything, they're just as Mechanicum if not moreso as they're built by forgeworlds.

King Fluff - December 21, 2010 11:10 AM (GMT)
true. The fluff unashamadly isn't mine it's robbed from lexicanum. But would the Skiitari be forgeworld skiitari, the skiitari from the commanding titan legio or would each household have it's own skiitari 'bondsmen' as it were? just a thought on colourschemes etc. when building and painting.

Also do you think a knight 'rider' would look like a moderati or would they be more like the sentinel pilots?

In terms of imperial vs not perhaps the prefix distinguishes them from eldar knights? they are a pain to search for with the prefix as it just comes up with Star Wars stuff :P

Whitehorn - December 21, 2010 11:19 AM (GMT)
Indeed the Imperial prefix would be something that simple, but it doesn't have to be now :)

I'm not sure if Skitarii and Knights could be from the same house. I can't remember the affiliation of those in Mechanicum.

ShroudFilm - December 21, 2010 11:26 AM (GMT)
I don't recall the Knight households having their own Skitarii in 'Mechanicum' - it was more like a brotherhood of knight 'riders' ( :lol: ) who supported the Titan legions as required.

IMHO, the pilots would look more like Sentinel pilots than Moderati, although maybe with coats of arms or some basic armour?

The Red Sorcerer - December 21, 2010 11:42 AM (GMT)
The Skitarrii and Knights wouldn't be from the same 'House' - the last Knight background in Epic had the Knightworlds sending detatchments of Knights off-planet to support the Mechanicus - primarily the Titan Legions themselves, many of whom had their own associated Knight House as long-term allies. This actually matches pretty well with the more recent Mechanicum background, so doesn't seem to have been majorly altered.

Going by that, the Skitarii would be from the Titan Legion (or the forces of a forgeworld/Magus) that called upon the Knights, not the Knightworld itself, and would best be represented in a different livery from the Knights themselves.

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