Title: Iron Hands fluff building
Description: need your opinions
stormbird1 - August 11, 2010 03:32 PM (GMT)
I have been researching anything and everything on Iron Hands both pre-hersey and current 40k timeline and this is what i have come up with:
All cannon fluff is based on the following cultures: Celtic, Ireland, and scottish. Meaning the current clan names are taken from these cultures. From town names to other things. With this in mind, i am leaning towards the Celtic information to come up with fluff.
Now the Celts were a warrior clan/tribe based culture. This goes with the cannon fluff of Medusa to a degree. The Celts would run straight into battle (like the Iron Hands did to the Diasporex). There are several clans that stick out: the Veneti - are ship builders and the Nervii - who were a spartan like clan.
here are my problems:
When Medusa was in compliance, the fluff from the horus hersey books suggests that the compliant world was given a influx of new popluation and construction. Now with Medusa's turbulant way of life, how could the Imperium build anything. There is no cannon fluff on orbital stations or anything of that nature. Also with the population how would they learn to survive. My only thought is that the Native clans would split into new clans taking a percentage of new poeple.
ShroudFilm - August 11, 2010 04:34 PM (GMT)
The Imperium as a whole would be very anti- adopting the local ways. That's just not what the Emperor's vision was all about.
It'd be more likely that they would build structures and use whatever advanced technology they could to adapt Medusa to their needs, not adapt themselves to the needs of Medusa.
Just because something is not mentioned in the fluff, doesn't mean it didn't happen. You never hear of a Space Marine taking a dump... for example... :D
The only places where you see true adherence to the "old ways" of a primarch's former life, are in the Legions themselves. The clans etc within the Iron Hands are most likely the ONLY place post-compliance that you would find them among the Medusans.
stormbird1 - August 11, 2010 06:26 PM (GMT)
Would the primarch allow his world to be subugated like that? Would he really allow what he struggled to create for his homeworld be cast aside for the Imperial cause?
Shroud, i know what you are saying, like what happened in the book "Fallen Angels". Where the native population was treated as a lower cast citizen. But if that was the case wouldn't all Primarch world's have rebelled against the Imperium?
Also the book "Iron Hands" by jonathan green, state that in the current 40k timeline (13th Black Crusade) state that the Medusans use a clan struture that coincides with the IA articles that states that medusans had clan structure before the coming of the Emperor. So how would this be explained? Very confusing when different sources of fluff is conflicting.
So with what you said, shroud, the Iron Hands could have orbital ship yards and population centers on planet, just that it isn't mentioned.
With Terran marines, during the time when introduced to the primarch, would they all be placed in veteran status? When Ferrus and the veterans went to Isstvan 5, all the veterans wouldn't have been terrans would they? Would any terran marines in the Iron Hands survive Isstvan 5?
fritzagelmann - August 11, 2010 08:30 PM (GMT)
Not to be that guy or anything, but the space pups still follow their tribal structure adamantly. They don't have hive citys, or temples to the emperor, they are a nomadic sea born race that is attempting to destroy itself. This is gone into in great detail in the space pup books which talk about ragnar.
Iron Corsair - August 11, 2010 08:47 PM (GMT)
In Iron Hands it is mentioned that Medusa is a structurally unsound planet like Nocturne and so the clans travel around in giant cities on wheels pretty much. So, all the Imperium would do, IMO is soup up these roving cities with their own technology and start tithing the people the mineral wealth on Medusa.
stormbird1 - August 11, 2010 11:31 PM (GMT)
Iron Corsair, you are correct on those clan cities, but those are also the Astartes clans not the natives. It does say that the natives travel in wheeled caravans. We also know that the land of shadows, where the ruins of past events happened is a stable area. The IA article states that Medusa has several stable areas and the rest in constantly shifting.
In the book "Fallen Angels", it tells that the Imperium brings in people to boost population, builds numerous factories, hive cities, raise PDF and Imperial army regiments, along with fortifying the legion base of operations and planet. The only thing IMO is that the primarchs would have left "directions" on how to effect their world. Am i wrong in thinking like this?
Fritzagelmann, you are correct and only enforces my opinion. The IA articles state that the primarchs made there worlds the way they wanted to make them stronger. I don't see them handing their world over to an Administrative force with free reign to do what they wanted. This would reduse the quality of new recruits for the Astartes not to mention traditions that they follow.
But we are talking pre-hersey timeline, so how would the Imperium have reinforced a primarch's world without damaging their traditions?
ShroudFilm - August 12, 2010 10:36 AM (GMT)
Basically, do whatever you want. We will not see any detailed pre-Heresy IH fluff in the next 5 years. ;)
I can't really see how any of this matters in the building of a tabletop army, though.
konstantinos - August 16, 2010 12:01 PM (GMT)
now that is comforting(irony of course).In the index astartes which is the most recent (thumbs down) information we have on the iron hands it is said that the clans roam on big mettalic behemoths that travel the land and the rest of the population had adopted a nomadic state...I highly doubt that any terrans would want to leave his life at earth and go to live on a planet of perpetual gloom and without any building of any kind...besides i thik the primarch could have agreed with the emperor that the planet should stay as it were...
since it has nothing of value except it its people like fenris...
P.S shroud why? why? why?the IH have nothing not fluff anymore not even a special character on the codex and both primarch and first captain are dead why do you take the joy of expecting something every year away from us?! :P (continues to speak nonsense..)
Arden Fell - August 16, 2010 12:36 PM (GMT)
If the IH are based on celtic races then the introduction of imperial population as a means to 'build a new population' raise armies, etc is basically lifted from the historic way in which the english tried to deal with the situation.
If you can't get them to follow your ways then, establish a heirachy of your own people and then breed it out of them.
Probably didn't work on Fenris as that would be a little a kin to beastiality. ;)
konstantinos - August 17, 2010 06:27 AM (GMT)
nowhere in the fluff is it implied that the IH have any resemblance to celtic races period.Besides fenris and medusa have the same features except the weather conditions both have radic changes every year the one planet with earthquakes the others with the glaciers that submerge etc..both people are in a nomadic state and with tribes and clansand so it is only natural to asume that medusa had the same fate as fenris in the coloniztion process.
stormbird1 - August 17, 2010 07:37 PM (GMT)
konstantinos, I didn't mean that cannon fluff said they were like the Celtic culture. Celtic culture is the only one that has simiularites that fit Iron Hands fluff. To give examples:
1) Celtic culture was widely spread through Briton, Gaul (Germany), Ireland, ect. So they were nomadic like the Iron Hands.
2) The Celts were metal crafters before the Romans. In the Iron Hands IA it states that the Medusans travel around looking for resoures and after Ferrus came they became more industrail.
3) Celtic tribes or clans varied in tactics, but once committed they fought to the end (like the Iron Hands fluff).
4) The Celtic tribe called the Nervii were a spartan like clan that was considered the most barbaric. Now we now spartans culled weak children for the betterment of the state. This reflects the Iron Hands IA about how Medusans offer weak children to the elements.
This is my opinion, for the Celtic Culture is the only one that fit, Like the Mongels fit the White Scars. Again this is my opinion. If you have other opinions i would gladly like to hear them.
I'm trying to get all my thoughts together to post it here to get all your opinions and thoughts.
konstantinos - August 17, 2010 09:42 PM (GMT)
you can easily find all those things involving the celts also at ancient greeks before they were organised to city states.The greeks nomadic tribes were also metal crafters and weaponsmiths with a legendary ability ti create unbreakeable swords since the used a special technique.you yourself used the term spartan so again no need to say more.you see many civilisations have the same characteristics.I cannot argue about the names though the resemblance is amazing.
I agree but if you want to create a force that really resembles the nature of an Iron hand clan i suggest that you use all of the bionic bits you can find along with some space wolves tribal markings even the wolf symbol(morlocks=wolves of medusa).I say that because the nature of an IH marine according to the little scrap of info we have is dual.On one side we have the obsession with the bionics and from the other side the clan based oranisation along with the tribal characteristics(hence clans).
I play IH for almost 10 years now and i have lifted every stone that might have anything about them.Since not many things are out there we have to make do with what we have and these(above) are my assumptions around their nature methods of warfare etc...i hope i helped..
stormbird1 - August 18, 2010 01:58 AM (GMT)
Yes you are correct that many different cultures fit, but when i researched for a while it was hard to narrow down. At first i was thinking the Spartans, but many poeple went for it after the movie "300" came out. So i wanted to distance myself from making it Spartan. After about 2+ weeks at the computer, i got very fustrated. So i went to the current information that i knew and typed them into a search engine. Alot of the searches brought me to information that lead to the Celtic culture. So i went with it.
Now i'll just be expanding on what others have already begun. The thing that i'm having a problem with is when the Iron Hands developed the bionic infactutation. We have conflicting fluff, the book "Fulgrim" states before the hersey and other information states after the hersey.
I'm also trying to find a way to seperate how Terran and Medusan marines looked like. I was thinking of a hairstyle of a short strip of hair (mohawk) down the center of their head to the back of their skull that then turns into a single braid of hair about shoulder length. I think it is similuar to the book "Fallen Angels" terran marines it may be the same, i really can't remember. What do you think? Or should all Terran marines look like the ones in "Fallen Angels"?
konstantinos - August 18, 2010 01:11 PM (GMT)
Remember on thousand sons when Ahriman talks to the remembrancer?he said the thousand sons were named and had among their ranks their most gifted brethren?there are no coincidences ! the IH no matter who they were before becoming astartes (but i am nearly convised that they were the ones that liked tampering with machines more than anyone else)after their induction they share their genetic imprint with their primarch so the fascination about bionic implants which became greater after ferrus slew asirnoth and his hands changed.Remember also the initiation techinque with the removal of the left hand.
BUT the difference with the terrans and the medusans is only one.Both have the obssesion with machines.However the medusans are tribal warriors much like the fenrisians whereas the terrans are more civilised than the others.So in my opinion the way to diferentiate your marines is this tribal markings from tattoos to the bitz that the wolves have.(40k marines are only tribal warriors obsessed with machines and thus got a bit carried awayon the previous post)
P.S.300 is a great movie but the real spartans were a bit different if you want more info p.m me hell im greek i can give you more info than most people. :lol:
Pacific - August 18, 2010 03:32 PM (GMT)
This thread could quite easily end up with the native Medusans riding sentient clouds lady-Godiva style through the sky, firing lightning bolts and screaming at each other in a Japanese-derived language (translation - "This is Medussaa!")
Scary stuff :lol:
konstantinos - August 20, 2010 05:39 AM (GMT)
do you disaree on something?
Pacific - August 20, 2010 06:38 AM (GMT)
Not at all, I'm just making a point in an obtuse way that pretty much everything we can say about the legion's homeworld is complete conjecture.
The fact that the IH have such little officially developed background means that the more defined any fan-built background becomes the more chance that it will be made irrelevant as soon as anything official is released.
Reading through the IA article, all we have is:
1 - They were very primitive. The 'sagas' make you think of some of the Aboriginal Australian stories, where the great god walalugaluga picked up a big rock and smashed it on the ground, creating Ayers rock etc. (substitute Ferrus Manus in for the god).
2. - In some ways they were similar to the viking/celtics ancestry (as has been mentioned), so you can draw limited conclusions from that.
So I'm not being critical at all, and in a lot of ways I greatly admire fan fiction, but I was just making the point that my version of the IH background is almost as valid ;)
konstantinos - August 20, 2010 11:03 AM (GMT)
true but no one is making stuff up.we just interpert the given facts in a different way.For example i have not seen an IH army that has taken into consideration the tribal nature of the Legion.It is also very logical since every artwork does not head towards that direction.It is no mistake that people dont take it into consideration but i like it because it adds more depth and detail.Since GW does not pay attention to this chapter/legion many things said over the years seems contradictory.(see the no chapter master fluff)
ShroudFilm - August 20, 2010 11:24 AM (GMT)
I agree with Pacific - the IH fluff is too vague, and people are reading too much into it. It'd be best to either make up your own background around what we know, or just wait for a novel dealing more specifically with them.
Pacific - August 20, 2010 11:30 AM (GMT)
I think the IH are one of the most neglected legions/chapters, which is remarkable when you consider their 'character' (many chapters are just clones of a prior legion, or have little to distinguish them). In some cases second founding chapters have had more attention (Flesh Tearers, Crimson Fists etc)
So there is:
- The IA article (which manages to say a whole lot about very little). We know that they are nomadic and have a low technology base when Ferrus lands on Medusa.
- A book called 'Iron Hands' or something similar, that was released some years back. I can't really remember the story, other than not wanting to read it again.
- Snippets from the HH series, although again nothing significant on background (from what I can remember)?
I suppose the question would be how much of the old 'tribal' culture was subsumed byt the industrialisation of Medusa when the Emporer arrived.
stormbird1 - August 20, 2010 02:15 PM (GMT)
Pacific, you are correct in your points and conjecture. Shroudfilm, your right about the Iron Hands fluff being vague. But i have been following GW since the early 1980's and the Iron Hands have always been left in the shadows. GW only goes with the favorites (Ultramarines, Blood Angels, ect.) because, sadly to say, that is where the money lies. Which on a business level i understand, But as a first founding legion it is very wrong. Many players don't want to create Iron Hands armies because there is no corporate support in either fluff or parts/bits for miniatures. I don't see GW expanding on the Iron Hands just because the money isn't there. There is no expected return for the investment in them.
I agree with shroud in making your own fluff, but want it to coinside with established fluff so it don't seem odd. I have even thought of writing something for them but i'm no writer, but my interest is there. I have even tried to get a job from GW several times in the US but nothing happens. Don't get me wrong i love GW but the company has drifted away from its customers. That sadens me. GW has so much potential to expand but they limits itself to where the money lies. When GW first came out they weren't afraid to take chances and look where it has taken them. I for one would love to come to GW headquarters in the UK and talk with them and see the wonders they have created. That is one dream i hope to see acomplished before i leave this earth.
But back to point, I plan on making some fluff and posting it here for your C&C.
konstantinos - August 20, 2010 06:30 PM (GMT)
Shroud you said it yourself the IH wont get anything for the next 5 years.I agree that they have been neglected which strikes me as odd since they are of the little armies that offer such opportunites both at modeling and playing.
On the other hand the fluff is vague but i am not a fan of making my own stories because then a book or a special character pops up and GW turns it all again.I think we have to make do with what we have.
Lastly there are still tribes arent they?so i think nothing changed over 10.000.Most astartes chapters are obsessed with keeping old traditions so i assume nothing changed.