Title: iron hands questions
stormbird1 - July 20, 2010 12:49 AM (GMT)
I have several questions to ask you all:
1) The 52nd expedition, did they have any attached Imperial army or Mechanicus units?
2) In the book "Fulgrim", It says that Ferrus took a fleet vessal (can't remember the name) and took all the morlocks that could fit in it. Now i know that everyone says that the entire morlock company went with Ferrus, but in the book it never did say that the entire terminator company went. Am i right?
3) Did the Iron Hands have any assault marines with jump packs? If so, how many?
4) With Horus's plan to short loyalist legions of equipment, would the Iron Hands have been shorted with their Mechancium ties?
5) What vehicles would be acceptable in the Iron Hands army?
6) Was the Iron Hands legion infantry heavy like the Death Guard legion?
7) Would the Iron Hands legion have access to vehicles used by other legions? For example, the Iron Warriors thunder strike rhino.
8) Where would i find Iron Hands names? What culture would i use?
9) Does anyone have any ideas for pre-hersey clan symbols?
Any help would be apprecaited. Thanks.
ShroudFilm - July 20, 2010 12:16 PM (GMT)
1) All fleets were made up of similar components. All legions were supported by Mechanicum and IA, no reason the 52nd wouldn't have been.
2) Whatever the book says. If it doesn't say anywhere that the WHOLE Morlock company went, then they didn't all go.
3) Why wouldn't they have jump packs? They are among the most techy of the legions! Most legions are generally regarded in gaming terms as being able to field at least 20 marines in 100 (so 20% overall) as jump infantry, if anything I'd say the IH could feasibly have more.
5) Anything and everything from what is considered PH on the FAQ list.
6) Insufficient examples to calculate meaningful answer.
7) I don't believe that the Thunderstrike was exclusive to the IW. Worth researching further. But certainly IH can always get away with counts-as pretty much anything in the rules.
8) I'd start with the CV book and then use any/all pig-Latin terms you can find. HG Wells might be a logical source to mine, considering the Morlocks reference.
9) I'm not sure - do we have any canon examples at all?
Ilmarinen - July 20, 2010 03:26 PM (GMT)
2. This remains a confusing point for me. Some of the fluff indicates that Ferrus only took (almost) all his veterans with him to Istvaan, but other fluff states that all 3 loyalist legions at Istvaan were virtually annihilated. If only Ferrus and the veterans were killed then there would still be most of the legion left to keep fighting, which doesn't fit the overall theme at all.
3. There is an image of an Iron Hands assault squad with jump packs (turbine style) in HH: Collected Visions.
9. Would the clans have changed since the Heresy? So far we have the lightning struck mountain, spanner, hex nuts x3, and cogwheel.
ShroudFilm - July 20, 2010 03:42 PM (GMT)
9) Being a massive Vampire CCG geek, here are some symbols you could use or adapt for unit markings:
konstantinos - July 20, 2010 11:25 PM (GMT)
actually you can use the icon packs from forgeworld i doubt the clan markings changed throughout the millenia they names of the clans and symbols remain the same.If you have the index astartes aricle you will see tha PH iron hands have the same symbol as post heresy so i shouldnt be problem...
stormbird1 - July 21, 2010 12:19 AM (GMT)
Thanks for the replies everyone. It helps me with making the army close to pre-hersey as possible.
Now with the clans, what i envision is that there were many more clans during the great crusade. That is why i was asking about the clan symbols. Fluff seems to suggest that a company is made up of clans members only. If that is the case, i don't know the size of the legion. A company seems to be around 1000 members, if we take the organization from the book "Battle for the Abyss". I might have it wrong, but am uncertain.
Does anyone have pics of the Iron Hands from the collect visions book? I only have visions of death book (vol#4).
I still need to know what culture fits the Iron Hands to find names. The only one that i can find that remotely fits is the Spartans. Who hate weakness as much as the Iron Hands do.
It is suggested that the tactical squads were bigger in pre-hersey (20 men). If so what transport option could be taken?
I'm trying to get as close as possible to a true pre-hersey company of Iron Hands. So any help or ideas would help greatly.
Magos Explorator - July 21, 2010 06:39 AM (GMT)
I think it's a shame that not much in the way of Iron Hands background has been revealed.
I would tend to agree with your suggestion that there may have been more clans before the Heresy. One reason for this is that, as you mention, as best we know clans are linked to companies, and some of the companies would have been split off to form the Red Talons and Brazen Claws.
ShroudFilm - July 21, 2010 09:23 AM (GMT)
For gaming purposes, your best option is to pick up the free download of the Tempus Fugutives rules for Age of the Emperor. Their Imperial pack will have lots of inspiration for you.
konstantinos - July 21, 2010 02:36 PM (GMT)
actually i diasagree...the ten clans of medusa were the only ones that have been mentioned and not all of them.i think that the ten clans with 1000 space marines is the correct number.but that contradicts with the ten companies of morlcks being mentioned in fulgrim.From what litte info we have a think that the clans are the equivalent of the company in other legions and the company is the same as the 40k company.if that is not the case then the numbers of the iron hands are enormous...
stormbird1 - July 21, 2010 07:03 PM (GMT)
konstantinos, I disagree with you if the iron hands only took aspiriants from 10 clans then they would have had no failed aspiriants. Which we know from cannon fluff even in pre-hersey that is not possible. Also they would have wiped the clans out before the normal 40k timeline. So there had to be more clans, some would have been wiped out during the great crusade or the hersey, whos knows.
Are there any cannon samples of legion sizes or numbers? I know from "Raven's Flight" that the Raven Guard numbered 80,000 at Isstvan V.
Gagoc TheAncient - July 21, 2010 09:09 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (stormbird1 @ Jul 21 2010, 01:19 AM)|
| I still need to know what culture fits the Iron Hands to find names. The only one that i can find that remotely fits is the Spartans. Who hate weakness as much as the Iron Hands do. |
Just tried to imagine the Iron Hands dancing!
It's a Spartan thing.
konstantinos - July 21, 2010 10:19 PM (GMT)
the original legion before the emperor found ferrus consisted of terrans only after that both medusans and terrans filled their ranks and since it is not mentioned anywhere at which point of the Crusade the Emperor found ferrus i think that their losses could be replenished at first from the first medusan IH and after that with the new medusan aspirants...if that is the case and there were more clans what happened to them?i dont think that Ferrus would allow them to be eradicated...
stormbird1 - July 22, 2010 01:20 AM (GMT)
we must remember Ferrus's beliefs on weakness, maybe the other clans were "weak" in some way. Ferrus never interfered in any clan rivaleries, so would he interfer with weak clans dieing on the battlefield?
Also the clans of Medusa weren't given sizes. So like in our history clans can be made up of various sizes. Maybe smaller clans were intergrated into bigger clans to survive. That could be how some of the current iron hand clans survived to the current timeline.
But you are right about the first marines being Terrans. Now we have to ask when iron hands organization started to be influenced by medusa culture, how were the terran marines indoctrinated? Were they adopted by the medusa clans or did they form their own "clan" companies?
The Red Sorcerer - July 22, 2010 10:29 AM (GMT)
Considering the Terran Marines also helps provide an explanation as how Ferrus' 'Veterans' being wiped out had such a major crippling effect on the Legion - this could well have included a large proportion of the most experienced marines of the Legion rather than just the Morlock companies, and considering their longer service records this would almost certainly have included large numbers of the original Terran marines. While Fulgrim only mentions Ferrus' ship with the Morlock companies, we know that other vessels were following as quickly as possible to join with the landings. It seems probably at least some of them arrived in time to take part in landings or become involved in naval battles with the fleets of the Traitors, and likely being wiped out as a result. Still, the Index Astartes and other background certainly suggests that the Legion suffered far less than the other Loyalists in terms of sheer numbers of losses. However, the fact that these losses were their Primarch and most experienced veterans and officers means their impact would be felt far beyond their numbers.
From the artwork it seems probable that the Clans in pre-heresy at least included the clans that exist in 40K, although there may well have been more clans that have been lost or absorbed by the larger clans since that time.
As for the Terran marines, we have no idea how they were integrated with the new Medusan marines - suych paractices seem to vary between Legions. The Death Guard, ofr example, seem to have mixed their formations, wheras other Legions (Dark Angels, Space Wolves) kept them separate.
ShroudFilm - July 22, 2010 12:17 PM (GMT)
Indeed, Raven's Flight mentions vast numbers of dead IH in power armour littering the battlefield. It was not just the Morlocks present.
stormbird1 - July 22, 2010 03:14 PM (GMT)
Ok i copied this from the pinned IA iron hands in this forum.
Ferrus chose the fastest of the Legion's ships, and together with his most veteran troops, sped towards Istvaan V ahead of the rest of the Legion. As they had feared, the majority of the fleet arrived too late to take part in the attack, and it was with dread and horror that they learnt of the disastrous treachery that had greeted their Primarch's attack.
Now this suggest that the iron hands had arrived after the ambush. So they would have claimed their dead and equipment along with looking for their primarch Ferrus. Maybe not all the ships arrived at once. If this is the case then not all veterans were lost. I admit that maybe a high percentage of the veterans were lost.
We have so many conflicting Information sources its hard to be sure.
If the Iron Hands were one of the loyalist legions that didn't suffer many calauties, then what would their legion size have been? Would it be close to the Ultramarines or higher then the other loyalist legions?
Now if the Iron Hands did arrive on Isstvan V after the ambush, would they have collected the Raven Guard and Salamanders dead also to be returned to their legions? I am conflicted on this due to the Iron Hands holding both those legions responible for the loss of Ferrus.
ShroudFilm - July 22, 2010 03:20 PM (GMT)
I can't remember to what extent I can't say, but the Ultramarines legion size is nowhere near approached by any other legion. Apparently WB are second in line.
The IH suffered enormous casualties. Ferrus was killed very near the start, but the IH were almost completely wiped out - the fighting on Isvtaan V went on for months after the initial massacre. Corax was fighting for THREE months before he was rescued, for example.
Don't be confused by talk of the "initial assault". The IH still got creamed, but AFTER the first wave.
I recommend 'Raven's Flight' as essential research on the subject, make that your next port of call.
konstantinos - July 23, 2010 10:48 AM (GMT)
actually ferrus was killed near the end at the duel with fulgrim he was actually the last to fall since he was fighting and corax and vulkan started to fall back.when the 4 traitor legions landed and opened fire and thus incapasitating corax and vulkan ferrus was just starting his counterattack to face fulgrim.and in fulgrim also says that ten companies of morlocks where present and only them since the ferrum had no room for more marines.even so ten companies of morlocks is a very large number for a veteran unit leading to the assumption that they were the modern 40k sized companies and the clans where the crusade company equivalent.
i listend with dargor raven flight but after little mentions i dont recall many things with a mention to ferrus or iron hands i think that fulgrim also gives a very detailed version of the story and be sure that there will always be incosistencies in the story...
The Red Sorcerer - July 23, 2010 12:33 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (konstantinos @ Jul 23 2010, 10:48 AM)|
| actually ferrus was killed near the end at the duel with fulgrim he was actually the last to fall since he was fighting and corax and vulkan started to fall back |
Nope, the duel with Fulgrim started immediately before the 'backup' Legions revealed their treachery. Even in Fulgrim its clear the battle proper lasted a considerable period after the death of Ferrus, with the massacre of the Loyalists that failed to retreat being the period the Loyalists took the most casualties - and Raven's Flight shows that the mopping up after the main battle lasted for months.
I agree with you on the numbers of Morlocks though - I'd say that 10 companies would be at least 1,000 Marines. Clan Companies, I would imagine, would be the Grand Company/Chapter sized formations.
konstantinos - July 24, 2010 07:57 AM (GMT)
i agree that the battle lasted for months but in fulgrim when the 4 traitor legions fire incapasitated instantly vulkan and corax and after that ferrus is killed in the duel and it says in the book that the salamanders managed to take vulkan's body of the planet whereas it is made clear on raves flight that corax fought a 3month guerilla warfare until he was rescued.
another thing that makes me wonder however is that is angron was coming to face corax and thus trator legions where on the planet how could the ships of the RG pass the traitor ones that where in orbit?
stormbird1 - July 24, 2010 04:32 PM (GMT)
Red sorcerer, If we go by your clan company size theory, then there would have be many more clan companies then the 10 in the current timeline.
Shroud said that the Ultramarines had 250,000 marines and the Word Bearers were second in size. We know the Raven Guard to be 80,000 +. Emperor's Children were a small in number due to there earlier mishap during there creation. Death Guard only had 7 companies. Alpha Legion was probably small due to their tactics and use of normal operatives. Space Wolves had 13 great companies. So we are left with the following legions:
1) Luna Wolves/ Sons of Horus
2) World Eaters
3) Imperial Fists
4) Iron Hands
5) Iron Warriors
6) Night Lords
7) Thousand Sons
8) Dark Angels
9) White Scars
10) Blood Angels
I don't know if the legions tactics would dictate their numbers, but sounds logical. Then we have to remember the orginal terran marines that started the legion also. I don't see the Emperor creating one legion of terran marines with a bigger number over the others, so we have to look at the primarchs homeworld to give an idea as to recruit rate. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels home world had a military organization, so this could contrubite to recruit rate. Salamanders and Iron Hands home worlds had clan/city state organizations. Imperial Fists recruited from a number of worlds that they liberated in the crusade.
Konstantinos, I believe they were on the oppsite side of the planet and had there thunderhawks go under the radar to make extraction. Remember they were Raven Guard =).
In my opinion, i think that when Ferrus went deeper into the battlefield, Vulkan and Corax were shown the treachery of the other legions. Vulkan and his men went for extraction immediately. While Corax who didn't want to have his men to be cut down, made a tactical withdrawal to regroup. When he did this, he cut himself off from escape. Hence the 3 month guerilla warefare until rescue.
ShroudFilm - July 25, 2010 09:05 AM (GMT)
Discussion of legion sizes must cease for now. It may or may not be covered in a forthcoming release. :rolleyes:
And everyone knows that the RG evacuation arrived by travelling faster than the speed of logic, using their "plot device" engines. If you try to apply too much thought to how they penetrated the defenses, you will be disappointed every time.
Basically, STUFF happened which wasn't covered in the story, which meant it was easy. :lol:
konstantinos - July 25, 2010 09:57 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Jul 25 2010, 09:05 AM)|
| Discussion of legion sizes must cease for now. It may or may not be covered in a forthcoming release. :rolleyes: |
forthcoming release from GW? i dont get it... :huh:
ShroudFilm - July 25, 2010 11:30 AM (GMT)
Yes, a forthcoming release from GW, which is therefore covered by my NDA, and therefore cannot be discussed here.
Whitehorn - July 25, 2010 11:45 AM (GMT)
Laurie: Dude, sneak in some info about legion sizes in your next book.
ShroudFilm - July 25, 2010 01:21 PM (GMT)
I think you're confusing me with Alan Merrett... :lol:
Magos Explorator - July 25, 2010 09:25 PM (GMT)
Hmmm. Well, you both have beards?
Yvraith - July 26, 2010 02:52 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Jul 25 2010, 11:21 PM)|
| I think you're confusing me with Alan Merrett... :lol: |
Do you have access to his laptop? :lol:
It is rumoured to have the power to end all of creation. :ph43r:
ShroudFilm - July 26, 2010 09:08 AM (GMT)
It is further rumoured to have already done this three times...
The Red Sorcerer - July 26, 2010 10:55 AM (GMT)
|and it says in the book that the salamanders managed to take vulkan's body of the planet whereas it is made clear on raves flight that corax fought a 3month guerilla warfare until he was rescued.|
Actually, that was the injured Corax:
|A black-armoured [Raven Guard] captain led the breakout, fighting his way towards a miraculously undamaged Thunderhawk as his warriors bore the grievously wounded body of their primarch towards escape. Of Vulkan there was no sign, his warriors cut off and surrounded by the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.|
Interesting that (presumably) First Heretic is weighing in on the Legion size debate - Collected Visions has the 100,000 size, but novels (aside from those involving Gav Thorpe, who is clearly a fan of larger numbers) regularly state far smaller sizes - 10,000 is the entire Thousand Sons legion in Thaousand Sons, and Fulgrim states the first stage of the Dropsite Massacre involved 60,000 marines in total (before the additional 'loyalist' traitor Legions made landing).
Pacific - July 26, 2010 01:38 PM (GMT)
Isn't it the case though that Alan Merrett is orchestrating the HH book series, as in the individual facts and trivia? If so then I would have thought it would have followed on from the Collected Visions books...
Ilmarinen - July 27, 2010 07:51 AM (GMT)
Presumably that quote from Fulgrim relates to Corax being injured at the time of the ambush and being taken onto a thunderhawk. Raven's Flight then takes up the story as the same thunderhawk is shot down.
Raven's Flight does comment on Corax healing incredibly quickly, so maybe he's in the initial trance (where he remembers being in his tube in the Emperor's lab on Terra) because he was injured at the ambush and in the process of healing.
Ah-hah! Inconsistency solved (for once!). :D
Regarding the clan company symbols, I've been trying to think of some suitable ones and I reckon a good one would be... an anvil. Easily recognisable and very appropriate, yes?
ShroudFilm - July 27, 2010 08:51 AM (GMT)
Bloody hell, that actually makes perfect sense too. It's the only mention of a Thunderhawk in the whole thing, too.
A cookie for Ilmarinen!
Pacific - July 28, 2010 02:06 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Jul 25 2010, 09:05 AM)|
| And everyone knows that the RG evacuation arrived by travelling faster than the speed of logic, using their "plot device" engines. If you try to apply too much thought to how they penetrated the defenses, you will be disappointed every time.|
Basically, STUFF happened which wasn't covered in the story, which meant it was easy. :lol:
I love plot-device stuff, although I have to admit the bit about the thunderhawk was a clever bit of shoe-horning if it does need the case, with only a little bit of 'a wizard did it' (Corax's amazing healing ability)
This won't mean anything to any of you, but made me laugh. The 'Colin Edwards' had been riding a motorbike on the ground up until this point..
With that war cry Spies, powered by the American nation and a carefully concealed sidewinder missile, calls in the air support of the F15 Strike Eagles.
USAF Pilot: "Ben can you give me lock on the bogies?"
Ben Spies: "Is the Pope a Nazi? Consider it done!"
USAF Pilot: "Lock on supplied. Good work guys. I'm firing the air to surface...argh!!"
Ben Spies: "What?"
USAF Pilot: "Looks like we have a filthy foreign UFO aircraft powered by olive oil on my tail. I can't shake their grey technology."
Colin Edwards: "Leave this to me!"
USAF Pilot: "Captain Edwards! It's an honour! But how did you get up here flying a jet fighter?"
Colin Edwards: "Let's just say I got a little help from my friends...."
USAF Pilot: "...err...actually that doesn't explain anything..."
But before he could ponder the situation anymore the Euro-UFO was destroyed in a ball of flames!
stormbird1 - July 29, 2010 02:50 PM (GMT)
ok, back on subject. Which companies "jump packs" are pre-hersey correct? Is it Maxmini or chapterhouse studios? Is there any other company i missed for jump packs?
Does anyone else have any ideas as to what to include vehicle wise for the army?
I plan on using Mk2-4 for power armour. The bits thread is outdated, can anyone tell me where i would find what i need? I am hoping that the new forgeworld kit will help, when it comes out.
The Red Sorcerer - July 29, 2010 03:43 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (stormbird1 @ Jul 29 2010, 02:50 PM)|
|ok, back on subject. Which companies "jump packs" are pre-hersey correct?|
As opposed to Power Armour, where there's actually official background that says when the differing marks were introduced, there's no 'pre-heresy correct' for jump packs really. Going by collected visions, anything with a turbofan style appearence seems to be fine. This covers maxmini, chapterhouse studios, and even GW raptor jump-packs. Personally I think Chapterhouse look the best (the jets at least) but its really up to you.
|I plan on using Mk2-4 for power armour. The bits thread is outdated, can anyone tell me where i would find what i need?|
Mk 2-3: Maxmini steam knight heads and heads/torsos from the GW Iron Warrior pack work best. Getting 'correct' legs requires converting standard legs yourself really. The more archaic Chaos SM legs work better than the loyalist ones for these marks. Chaos SM arms for both (they have the 'gauntlet' style armour as opposed to the cleaner loyalist arm style, thus matching the style of Mk II-III).
Mk 4 - Forgeworld. Using standard Mk 7 legs/arms is fine for these guys, unless you are feeling adventurous and want to trim the kneepads for a more accurate Mk IV look.
konstantinos - July 29, 2010 03:48 PM (GMT)
you can also use the maxmini bionic set for more conversions or the iron hands tactical squad from GW i know i do! :D
Ilmarinen - July 29, 2010 07:33 PM (GMT)
One of the Masters of the Chapter is in Mk3 armour, as is Chronus (I'm planning to chop him in half and use the legs).
There's a Mk3 torso in the death company box, and a (IMO) not great Mk3 helmet (I much prefer the FW sneak peak one).
Mk3 arms have an extended forearm plate that covers part of the hand, if you want to be really picky.
Mk2 doesn't have any bits I know of.
There's a modified Mk1 torso - FW Red Scorpion Vet Serg Haas. He also has Mk2/3 shoulder pads with the extra rim.
There's a set of Mk4 legs in the AoBR set.
konstantinos - July 30, 2010 09:22 AM (GMT)
the templar upgrade set has many interesting bits too...
stormbird1 - August 1, 2010 01:23 AM (GMT)
Looks like forgeworld heard my cry for help with Mk3 armour. I wonder what else is coming out?