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The Great Crusade > Pre-Heresy Background Q&A > The Order the Primarchs are discovered


Title: The Order the Primarchs are discovered
Description: Summary of what we know


The Red Sorcerer - March 18, 2010 04:51 PM (GMT)
I was sure we had a topic on this, but can't seem to find it. Besides which, this way I can start a new one with a summary of what we know. Noticed some very useful info in After Desh'ea so figured it was probably time to have a new bash at this.

So, starting off with what we know for certain:

1st: Almost certainly Horus (see almost everywhere)
7th : Rogal Dorn (see below ref.1)
20th: Alpharius (see below ref.2)

Of the remainder:

Jaghatai found before or around the same time as Lion El'Jonson.- see 'Descent of Angels', where the first posting of the Legion's Caliban recruits is to take over from a White Scars fleet, who have already been united with the Khan. Both seem to be found very early - the Dark Angels and Space Wolves have one of the highest tallies of victories according to their IA, second only to Horus - suggesting they have been fighting among the longest. Also, Sarosh is world 4-3 (Johnson is in command of the 4th Expedition fleet) suggesting this is very early in the crusade.

Vulkan and Peturabo found before Angron - almost certainly in that order. Khan heard how the Salamanders were reunited with their Primarch, but was there himself when Peturabo and his Legion are reunited (see below ref.3).

Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman, Magnus all found before Mortarion - see Flight of the Eisenstein where Garro remembers them being found by the Emperor before he came to Barbarus (see below ref.4).

Russ seems to have been found very early on (see old Codex Space Wolves - see below ref.5)

Peturabo was also found very early on (ref.6), which suggests Vulcan was found early too (see above)

Magnus found before Lorgar - see Word Bearers Index Astartes where Magnus accompanies the Emperor to Colchis to meet Lorgar.

Fulgrim found before Night Haunter - see Night Lords Index Astartes where he is Curze's tutor.

Guilliman before Night Haunter - See Night Lords Index Astartes where Ultramarines accompany the Emperor to Nostromo - the fact they are called Ultramarines at this point means they ahve almost certainly been reunited with Guilliman and renamed as a result.

Also, note that Primarch 2 was discovered by the Emperor either on his own, or at least with a small bodyguard, as he leaves Horus in control of the Crusade when he goes to find him (see ref.7). This means it cannot be Magnus (he is accompanied by the 15th Legion when he goes to Prospero) Dorn (he seeks out the Emperor's fleets himself) Lorgar (he goes to meet him with Magnus) El'Johnson (he takes the entire 1st Legion with him to Caliban) and probably not Sanguinius (he takes with him a substantial entourage). If he does meet him alone, it could be Russ, Vulkan, Mortarion, Corax, and Ferrus, who seem to be the only Primarchs he meets without any retinue at all.

So, my guess is something like this, obviously not exact:

1. Horus
Russ - seemingly one of the very first to be found. Encountered the Emperor on his own, so could even have been number 2.
Khan-Johnson and Vulkan-Peturabo - Johnson and Khan both seem to have been found very early, so soon after Russ? Peturabo was 'one of the first', and Vulcan probably found before him. So these four all seem to be found in the period between Horus' discovery and the discovery of Dorn. So these four, in some order, make up Primarchs 3-6.
7. Dorn
Angron/Sanguinius/Ferrus/Guilliman/Magnus - All of these must have been found after Dorn, seeing as 6 other Primarchs all seem to have been found first, making Dorn number 7. All definitely seem to have been found before Mortarion.
Fulgrim/Mortarion/Lorgar - All these seem to have been found relatively late. Certainly Mortarion is found after those mentioned above, and Lorgar is definitely found after Magnus.
Kurze - Found after Fulgrim
20. Alpharius

Which leaves Corax to slot in somewhere. And, of course, the two missing Primarchs!

Ref.1:
QUOTE (The Lightning Tower)
Dorn has been the seventh lost son to be reclaimed. By the time his father's forces found him, he had become a system warlord in his own right

Ref. 2:
QUOTE (Index Astartes Alpha Legion)
Then at the last instant, with his hands inches from Horus's throat, the man stopped. The two stared at each other for a long moment, before Horus started laughing. He had found the last Primarch.

Ref.3
QUOTE (Tales of Heresy)
Kharn had heard how the Salamanders had waited in orbit around the burning moon, waited for the Emperor’s word that the one he had found there was indeed their sire. He remembered the first sight of chilly-eyed Perturabo walking at the Emperor’s shoulder the day they took ship for Nove Shendak, and the change in the Iron Warriors when they knew who was to command them.

Ref. 4:
QUOTE (Flight of the Eisenstein)
Garro had been there as the Emperor crossed the galaxy in search of his star-lost children - Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman, Magnus and the rest. With each reuniting, the Lord of Mankind had gifted his sons with command of the forces that had been created in their image. When at last the Emperor came to Barbarus...

Ref.5
QUOTE (Codex Space Wolves 2e)
During the Great Crusades the Emperor’s all conquering Space Marine Legions liberated thousands of human worlds. Across the galaxy humanity was drawn into a single mighty Imperium. The world of Fenris was found early on, lying, as it does, in the north western part of the galaxy.

Ref 6
QUOTE (Tales of Heresy)
'...not even Perturabo when he came down to the lines for the final—’
‘You’ve said that name already,’ boomed Angron from behind him. ‘Who is he?’
‘Forgive me, sire. Another primarch. One of the first we found.'

Ref. 7
QUOTE (Index Astartes Black Legion)
Then came the day that the Emperor divined the presence of a second Primarch in their proximity and immediately set out to find him, leaving Horus in temporary command of the massed Legions of the Great Crusade.

Provost Dylanof - March 18, 2010 07:54 PM (GMT)
If no one ever found the missing primarchs then Alpharius might be 18th. The material is quite vague.

Whitehorn - March 18, 2010 08:19 PM (GMT)
The 2 missing are referenced in Lightning tower by 2 absent pillars/statues.

Were the statues said to be removed or never built?

Astelan - March 18, 2010 08:51 PM (GMT)
Removed.

All 20 Primarchs were found, I believe this was actually stated in The Lightning Tower, the two missing statues were removed after daddy put the subjects of the statues on the naughty step.

Also, if we can get a bit more info and correlation on what order the Primarchs were found in, then it would go some way to referencing which direction the early Great Crusade took around the galaxy. The nice full colour star charts that GW have done usually feature all the Legions homeworlds.

Torg - March 23, 2010 09:57 AM (GMT)
There is a mention in A thosand sons
that there was a coming together that happened before
Nikea(Not ullanor) that was breiefely mentioned
by Magnus and Mortarion"maybe it was 2 or 11 s
execution.
"Brother said Magnus ignoring Mortarion's words'A great day is it not?Nine sons
of the Emporergathered togetheron one world,such a thing has not happenedsince...."
I know it well said Mortarion his voice robust and resolute in contrast to his pallid
features.'And the Emporer forbade us to speak of it agian.Do you disobey that command? pg 264
another one possibly the death of one of them,
Mortaion laaughed ,the sound of Mountains collapsing.
I knew a being like you once before'he said so sure of his powers,
so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him'
Like you he weilded dark powers.Our father made him pay with his life for such evil
have a care you do not suffer the same fate.'
pg265
Possibility of what happened to one of the lost two and their fate. :huh: ;) :)
Although this probably doesn't help in when they were found.
though it probably helps that it is possible that Mortarion was found before one of them.

The Red Sorcerer - March 23, 2010 10:55 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Torg @ Mar 23 2010, 09:57 AM)
I knew a being like you once before'he said so sure of his powers,
so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you he weilded dark powers.Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. have a care you do not suffer the same fate.'
pg265

Actually, this is almost certainly a reference to Mortarion's adoptive father on Barbarus. One of the 'Dark Overlords' of Barbarus (whose exact nature is unknown) he used dark sorcery, was completely convinced of his superiority and the inability of anyone else (including Mortarion) to defeat him, and was eventually killed by the Emperor. In fact, Mortarion's experience with the overlords of Barbarus was originally what made him anti-psyker to start off with - the humans on Barbarus suffered hideous opression on Barbarus until Mortarion devoted himself to freeing them, slaughtered en masse and their corpses reanimated by dark sorcery to serve in the retinues of the overlords.
QUOTE
If no one ever found the missing primarchs then Alpharius might be 18th. The material is quite vague.

As others have said, they were all found, honoured by the Imperium and placed in charge of their legions, as is indicated by the references in The Lightning Tower and also Mechanicum, where Dorn and Malcador discuss the fact that two Legions are forever lost to them or words to that effect. Seeing as Horus would know as much as, if not more, about the missing Primarchs (he was the Emperor's right hand man aftere all) the fact he refers to Alpharius as 'the last primarch' makes it clear he was found after the two 'missing' ones.

malika - May 10, 2012 08:50 PM (GMT)
We know that the Lion was found before Mortarion, or at least that is being hinted at.

The Dark Angels fought with the newly named Death Guard on Perditus. The Lion first encountered the Death Guard three months before. From this I can assume that the Dark Angels have been around for a while longer (also under that name) whilst the Death Guard were pretty new, meaning the Lion must have been reunited with the Emperor before Mortarion was...



Apologist - May 11, 2012 08:37 AM (GMT)
Deliverance Lost seems to imply that Corax was found second-to-last:

QUOTE (Gav Thorpe @ Deliverance Lost*)
'Yes, you have brothers,' said the Emperor, smiling at his son's delight. 'Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.'
'Seventeen?' Corvus asked, confused. 'I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?'
The Emperor's expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.
'The other two,' he said. 'That is a conversation for another day.'


Twenty minus two (the lost primarchs) is eighteen; so this implies Alpharius (the final missing primarch after Corax) isn't included in this count. I'd presumed that to be simply because he hadn't been found. However, the Emperor goes on to say:

QUOTE
'Your brothers, those I have found, were similarly scattered[...]'
(My emphasis)

...which seems odd. Either he's referring purely to Alpharius, as the only one not found (now Corax is in front of him), which doesn't make sense in relation to his earlier note of 'seventeen' primarchs, or he hasn't found anywhere near all of them, and is deliberately leaving Alpharius out of the count (for whatever reason).

Mysterious!

Applying a little Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is that Corax is the second-to-last Primarch to be found, the two lost primarchs have already been found and lost, and the Emperor doesn't refer to Alpharius or include him in the 'brother count' simply because he hasn't been found yet.

In this interpretation, the 'those I have found' statement is just a rhetorical flourish rather than anything mysterious. *removes tinfoil hat*


*I have the ebook version; at the size I have it, p703 of 1383.

Arden Fell - May 11, 2012 11:43 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Apologist @ May 11 2012, 08:37 AM)
Deliverance Lost seems to imply that Corax was found second-to-last:

QUOTE (Gav Thorpe @  Deliverance Lost*)
'Yes, you have brothers,' said the Emperor, smiling at his son's delight. 'Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.'
'Seventeen?' Corvus asked, confused. 'I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?'
The Emperor's expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.
'The other two,' he said. 'That is a conversation for another day.'


Twenty minus two (the lost primarchs) is eighteen; so this implies Alpharius (the final missing primarch after Corax) isn't included in this count. I'd presumed that to be simply because he hadn't been found.


Does this actually imply that Corax was the second to last or just that the two Lost Primarchs were dealt with at an earlier stage?

If the Big E had 20 sons and knew that 2 were no more, then that would still leave the 17 brothers (plus Corax) that he refers to and is in the process of finding.

The only things that quote proves:
1) Corax was not the last,
2) The two Lost Primarch's are already dealt with.

ShroudFilm - May 11, 2012 11:54 AM (GMT)
That's really bizarre, Graeme Lyon and I just started working this out today... :D

We know that all twenty were found before the two were 'dealt with'. All the primarchs knew their missing brothers, and Corax especially mentions them.

He was, therefore, found as the eighteenth lost son. There was one more, then Alpharius.

Arden Fell - May 11, 2012 12:02 PM (GMT)
But doesn't that quote contradict the fact they were dealt with after they were all found?

As Corax is told that was a topic for later, it implies that they have been taken care of before he meets the Emperor, and he doesn't know of their existance since they were scattered.

Corax certainly knows their story but might not actually know them.

ShroudFilm - May 11, 2012 12:14 PM (GMT)
No, that quote reinforces it. The Emperor is not sad because he has already dealt with the two, but because he is still missing Alpharius and one other.

Based on recent, unreleased manuscripts which we are working with, you'll just have to accept my word on that... :ph43r:

Arden Fell - May 11, 2012 12:23 PM (GMT)
Ah gotcha.

He's sad cos he hasn't found the other '2' and they are still being looked for.

It's interesting his use of a "conversation for another day" though.

Does that therefore imply a sit-down chat regarding the reasons behind why they ended up scattered? :huh:

Apologist - May 11, 2012 02:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arden Fell @ May 11 2012, 12:23 PM)
He's sad cos he hasn't found the other '2' and they are still being looked for.

Ah, brill – so just a misunderstanding from my point of view; the Emperor's not referencing the two lost primarchs at all.

To recap, the ones with hard evidence for a precise numbering are now:

1) Horus
7) Rogal Dorn
18) Corax
20) Alpharius

We also have explicit background on the time relations between certain Primarchs' discoveries:

Vulkan > Angron
Perturabo > Angron
Lorgar > Magnus
Fulgrim > Konrad Curze

+++Edit+++
Oh, and didn't Vulkan make a gun for Ferrus Manus two centuries before the events of Fulgrim? That'd make the two of them early foundlings.

malika - May 11, 2012 02:04 PM (GMT)
And:

Lion > Mortarion

ShroudFilm - May 11, 2012 02:24 PM (GMT)
It's like Sudoku, innit? :D

Markus Krell - May 11, 2012 02:27 PM (GMT)
Apologist - I think it was the other way around, I think Ferrus Manus made the gun for Vulkan (and Fireblade - then swaped it with Fulgrim) and that Vulkan didn't trust that it would work as he hadn't built it, but when we don't know. It could be that Ferrus built weapons for everyone when he was found or that he was one of the earlier Primarchs and built a weapon for all of the newly found ones.

I think the Khan was before Angron too. I'd like to think Angron was one of the latter Primarchs which would explain the Emperor's lack of compassion when he found him; which explains Angron's unchecked rage/neural implants. See Alpharius as well, the Emperor didn't spend anytime with him before sending him out to conquer.

I can't remember is Magnus was before Lorgar or Guilliman, as one of them had a dream about being found by the Emperor and Magnus.

Apologist - May 11, 2012 02:45 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ May 11 2012, 02:27 PM)
Apologist - I think it was the other way around, I think Ferrus Manus made the gun for Vulkan [...] and that Vulkan didn't trust that it would work as he hadn't built it, but when we don't know.

Ah, you're quite right on the fact the gun was for Vulkan, but the date is specific:

QUOTE (Graham McNeill @ Fulgrim p306)
To honour Ferrus’s skill, Vulkan had presented him with a Firedrake banner, which hung next to a wondrously crafted gun with a top loading magazine and perforated barrel formed in the shape of a snarling dragon. Its brass and silver body comprised the finest workmanship Fulgrim had ever seen, and he paused before it, its lines and curves so beautiful that to simply label it a weapon was to deny that it was in fact a work of art.
‘I made that for Vulkan two hundred years ago,’ said Ferrus, ‘before he led his Legion into the Mordant Stars.’
‘So why is it still here?’
‘You know what Vulkan’s like, he loves to work the metal and doesn’t trust anything that hasn’t had the beat of a hammer laid upon it or the fire of the forge in its heart.’




QUOTE
Lion > Mortarion

Let's dig up some quotes, people :)

malika - May 11, 2012 03:18 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
ing by his hand. The people of Perditus had been enslaved to the machine and died in droves to the guns of the Dark Angels and the newly-renamed Death Guard. The Lion’s first encounter with Mortarion, a tense affair that had ended with neither primarch liking the other, had taken place only three months earlier, and the two Legions had been fighting side-by-side as a display of unity for the Emperor.

-The Primarchs: The Lion (page 233)

Markus Krell - May 11, 2012 08:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
‘I made that for Vulkan two hundred years ago,’ said Ferrus, ‘before he led his Legion into the Mordant Stars.’

Do you read from that that Vulkan was found after Ferrus Manus, and possibly that they were both found before Fulgrim, as he didn't know why the gun was still there?

ps, Fulgrim was found before Konrad Curze has Fulgrim was his mentor.

BigWill - May 11, 2012 09:00 PM (GMT)
Sounds to me if one of the lost primarchs were found so late.
They were corrupted from the getgo
They only thing I see the Emperor not forgiving is falling to chaos.
Maybe they were found in the Eye of Terror itself on a deamon world already changed into a deamon prince.
Since a primarch would be a badass even on a chaos world and most certainly garter notice of the dark four.
It would make sense they already ascended.The gods do fight each other as well.
If Eleven caused great damage to Tzeench it would make Khorne happy as hell.

It will never come out but IMO that is the fate of Two or Eleven maybe even both.

Pacific - May 11, 2012 09:55 PM (GMT)
I thought it said though in the Lightning Tower that both Primarchs were found and took charge of their respective Legions before their 'fall'? In fact there were statues of them on plinths on Terra (which had been covered by shrouds).

Markus Krell - May 12, 2012 09:43 AM (GMT)
Both of the missing primarchs suffered from separate tragedies, that Dorn thought may have been a warning to everybody. This would imply that they were found, lead their legions and knew the other eighteen primarchs.

My own personal take on this has one primarch turning his back on the Imperium, whether taking his legion with him or going alone and the second primarch either killing or being killed by his legion. Betrayal and murder in a legion is similar to what happened on Istvaan.

I’m sure I remember reading/hearing Dorn talking about another source of astates to help in the fight against Horus, but Malcador dismissed it.
Could this be referring to the missing legion that has left the Imperium or that there are a load of astartes in stasis? Remember that in First Heretic, it mentions that the Ultramarines took a lot of the missing legion’s astartes (whether from both or just one of the legions) and incorporated them into the Ultramarines much to the annoyance of Lorgar.

malika - May 12, 2012 10:05 AM (GMT)
Note that the story about the Ultramarines Legions integrating the Astartes from the two mission legions was just a rumour mentioned by the Word Bearers. In other words, it might not be true at all. It's mere speculation, probably jealous "gossiping" by the disgruntled Word Bearers...

BigWill - May 12, 2012 10:35 AM (GMT)
I agree with Malika that was a false flag.
It was always said the Ultras had the most members for two reasons
1)already had the Ultramar system running like a clock,so he had many more worlds to recruit from
2)tactical genius who had the smallest attrition rate,

Markus Krell - May 12, 2012 01:22 PM (GMT)
Just citing what was written; it does seem a little strange to increase the numbers of only one legion, especially one that was already quite large to begin with.

I also think Vulkan was found before Jaghatai Khan, but I don't have any reference of this and Magnus was found before Lorgar as detailed in the Index Astartes articles in White Dwarf:
QUOTE
The Speculum Historiale speaks of a tale told by Lorgar to Konrad Curze, Primarch of the Night Lords, during the victory celebrations on Boraint following the defeat of the Arch-Heretic of Dulorth.  Lorgar spoke of strange dreams and visions that afflicted him in his early years.  In them he saw a mighty warrior in gleaming armour with a helm of bronze and a shining sword.  A giant in blue robes with but a single, unblinking eye stood behind him, speaking of his lord’s coming to Colchis and that Lorgar must be ready for him.

The Apocrypha of Skarros tells that the Emperor and Magnus the Red descended to Colchis with two squads of Thousand Son Space Marines, to meet this mighty war leader, Lorgar dropped to one knee, immediately recognising the Emperor from his vision, and swore his undying fealty to him.




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