View Full Version: Chapters

The Great Crusade > VII: Imperial Fists > Chapters


Title: Chapters
Description: Did they have them Pre-Heresy?


DaemonlordAbraxes - February 16, 2010 09:33 PM (GMT)
The title is quite self-explanatory, i was wondering if the Imperial Fists or any other legions had Chapters

Magos Explorator - February 17, 2010 08:02 AM (GMT)
Battle for the Abyss mentions a large number of Word Bearers chapters. As for Imperial Fists, I don't recall off the top of my head what they referred to their bigger-than-100-but-smaller-than-Legion forces: I want to say 'Great Companies' but am not sure.

The Red Sorcerer - February 17, 2010 11:14 AM (GMT)
The Imperial Fists had Companies going by the novels so far - in Horus Rising, for example, Efried is 'Captain of the Third Company', whereas the most senior after Dorn is 'First Captain' Sigismund - so it would appear a Company is the largest division of the Legion.

The Dark Angels had Chapters as well as the Word Bearers. The Luna Wolves, World Eaters and Emperors Children had Companies. The Death Guard and Salamanders had exceptionally large companies - they both only had 7 Companies which are noted as being far larger than those of other Legions. Ditto the Space Wolves who had 13 Great Companies. The Iron Hands had Clan Companies, but as far as I know there is no indication yet as to their size relative to the Companies of other Legions.

The Ultramarines and Alpha Legion both definitely have Companies, but it is not clear whether there are larger formations within the Legion. For the Alphas, probably not - their High Command is present in Legion and their is no mention of ranks above Captain (save for the Primarchs of course). For the Ultras there may well be Chapters or other formations of larger size - the highest ranking marine in Battle for the Abyss is a Brother-Captain so there could well be higher ranking individuals within the Legion. Seeing as the Codex was based on Guilliman's organisational model, it seems likely there may have been Chapters within the Ultramarines.

ShroudFilm - February 17, 2010 12:49 PM (GMT)
I've never understood people's need to impose "Chapters" on the PH legions...

VESPASIAN - February 17, 2010 05:30 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Red Sorcerer @ Feb 17 2010, 11:14 AM)
Emperors Children had Companies. The Death Guard and Salamanders had exceptionally large companies...

The Emperor's Children also had Chapters within the Legion. Tarvitz enters the Gallery of Swords, lined with statues of the heros of the Emperor's Children and finds:

QUOTE (Galaxy in Flames @ Page 137)
Chapter Masters and commanders from long ago glared down at him


He also notices that the common feature of the Emperor's Children forces chosen to fight in the drop on Choral City, is that:

QUOTE (Galaxy in Flames @ Page 164)
...none were from Chapters led by Eidolon's favoured lord Commanders...


The Death Guard may have had Chapters, they certainly have Chapter Serfs-but its too little evidence to state categorically either way.

The Salamanders also appear to have Chapters;

QUOTE (Fulgrim @ Page 463)
Entire Chapters of Salamanders pressed home the attack...


as do the Blood Angels-judging by the prescence of Chapter Master Raldoron in Horus Rising.

The Ultramarines certainly do have Chapters within their Legion:

QUOTE (Battle for the Abyss @ Page 83)
This is Captain Cestus of the Ultramarines Seventh Chapter

DaemonlordAbraxes - February 17, 2010 10:13 PM (GMT)
The Imperial Fists had Captain Damocharis, Captain of the Soul Drinkers Assault Company

ShroudFilm - February 17, 2010 11:14 PM (GMT)
???

'Companies' and 'Chapters' are not the same thing...

DaemonlordAbraxes - February 18, 2010 12:23 AM (GMT)
I know, i think i got a little mixed up here (or this is in the wrong section of the forum)

The Red Sorcerer - February 18, 2010 10:57 AM (GMT)
Nice work Vesp, had missed those Chapter references. Makes sense with the Emperor's Children - it seems that Lord Comanders were in charge of Chapter strength and above. Definitely makes sense with the Ultras as well - had a feeling there might have been a Chapter reference there I had missed. Good catch with Raldoron as too, completely missed that one.

Personally I doubt the Death Guard had Chapters - the 'Chapter Serf' could be named for other reasons, and apparently were part of outdated Legion traditions largely abandoned when Mortarion took over anyway. Certainly the novels and Index Astartes make it clear they had seven Companies, commanded by Captains, as the largest groupings within the Legion.

The Salamanders ref is slightly problematical though, seeing as their Index Astartes states:
QUOTE
The Salamanders Legion organisation was laid down when Vulkan swore allegiance to the Emperor. Each Company was founded from the seven greatest settlements of Nocturne, each commanded by a Captain from that settlement.

So if they have Chapters that seems to imply that Salamanders Chapters are actually smaller than Salamanders Companies :blink:

So, with Chapters we have:
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Emperors Children
Word Bearers
Ultramarines
Salamanders (hmmm)

Almost certainly without Chapters we have:
Space Wolves
Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus
Death Guard
Iron Hands
World Eaters
Alpha Legion

jellemeulen - December 11, 2012 11:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Red Sorcerer @ Feb 17 2010, 11:14 AM)
The Imperial Fists had Companies going by the novels so far - in Horus Rising, for example, Efried is 'Captain of the Third Company', whereas the most senior after Dorn is 'First Captain' Sigismund - so it would appear a Company is the largest division of the Legion.

The Dark Angels had Chapters as well as the Word Bearers. The Luna Wolves, World Eaters and Emperors Children had Companies. The Death Guard and Salamanders had exceptionally large companies - they both only had 7 Companies which are noted as being far larger than those of other Legions. Ditto the Space Wolves who had 13 Great Companies. The Iron Hands had Clan Companies, but as far as I know there is no indication yet as to their size relative to the Companies of other Legions.

The Ultramarines and Alpha Legion both definitely have Companies, but it is not clear whether there are larger formations within the Legion. For the Alphas, probably not - their High Command is present in Legion and their is no mention of ranks above Captain (save for the Primarchs of course). For the Ultras there may well be Chapters or other formations of larger size - the highest ranking marine in Battle for the Abyss is a Brother-Captain so there could well be higher ranking individuals within the Legion. Seeing as the Codex was based on Guilliman's organisational model, it seems likely there may have been Chapters within the Ultramarines.

i do believe they had chapters divied into battalions divided into companies. what i understand the first captain could be the captain of first company of tje first battalion of the first chapter. a chapter existing of around ten companies its sees right. as in 'fulgrim" tarvitz and soloman both captains had different higher ranking officers above them wich i believe where there lieutenant commanders.

ShroudFilm - December 12, 2012 12:20 AM (GMT)
Thread necro! :D

However, since this thread was started, the FW book has covered exactly what a Chapter is in the Legions, and quite extensively shown how those wider organisations apply to the titles and divisions in use across the Imperium.

The old explanation from Collected Visions is now slightly out of date, but the basics you describe are still in place. :)




Hosted for free by zIFBoards