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Title: A theory about the XI Legion
Description: What if?


Crymzon - May 12, 2009 05:06 PM (GMT)
This is a total theory but it sort of fits. I was wondering whether the XI Legion was whiped from the records because it broke one of the founding genetic rules of the Astates.

What if Primarch of the XI Legion turned out to be female? The Emperor himself probably wouldn't have had a problem with this but I have a feeling that certain other powerful influences and absolutely some of the other Primarchs, (Angron for instance,) would have.

It would also upset the argument that the gene seed and all the enhancements that gene mutation brings doesn't work in the female body.

This is just a thought by the way but it sort of is plausable.

I'm considering writing a backstory for this Legion and I was planning on going along these lines. I think it'd be tricky but I don't see why it wouldn't be doable ...

Any thoughts would be appreciated, if it works I'll set about writing an article at least if not a full back story and all it entails.

lord_caldera - May 12, 2009 10:27 PM (GMT)
Hecate and the Hell Bunnies Legion are doing just fine, thank you. Her father just doesn't understand her, so he wiped their records and sent them to the warp to fight Chaos and stuff.

Gagoc TheAncient - May 13, 2009 12:07 AM (GMT)
Sorry Crymzon, but all the Primarchs are Brothers. The Story 'The Lightning Tower' reinforces that fact.

But you have made me think that maybe they were cast because they found a way to turn people other than male humans into Astartes, thereby corrupting their geneseed!
So maybe they had women or worse in their forces, and they got kicked out of the Imperium for it.

Thanks for making me smile Lord Caldera; 'Hecate and the Hell-Bunnies'. I wonder, do they look like power armoured Playboy bunnies? :D

Crymzon - May 13, 2009 01:10 AM (GMT)
You mean that they may have started using Xeno tech and come up with a new way of mutating the seed?

I suppose that's possible and it'd give me something to work with.

My other idea was that the Primarch of the XI legion hadn't formed properly and came out insane. I'm not talking psychopathic, i'm talking stark raving crackers and this mutation had spread down to the legion.

I think that removing a legion from the records because they where all barking would probably be a sensible thing to do. I could write into the plot that then all use a piece of war gear that constantly pumps the chemical's their brains are missing into their heads or the results are comical at best and potentially terrifying at worst.

Arden Fell - May 13, 2009 11:25 AM (GMT)
Ok assuming the Primarch is male, and including the Xeno tech mutation of the gene seed then why not a legion of female astarte? Afterall the female of the species is more deadly than the male and it is only 1 chromazone.

Crymzon - May 13, 2009 03:44 PM (GMT)
The only problem with having a whole legion of female Astartes is that we might be veering a little bit too close to the Sisters of Battle model. Yeah they have a different belief system i.e. if you even misspell the word emperor you get torched, but as far as gear is concerned, (discounting things like penitence engines etc etc) it's very similar.

I think we'd have to do something a bit different with them. A mix of male and female Astartes maybe but make the two as distinctly different from one another as possible.

The only other way round it, (yes I know all the Primarchs are brothers but ...,) is to follow the Alpharius idea and create another set of twins but make one of them female. The male of the two kept her completely secret but was found out and as a result he and his entire legion was wiped from the records. If she never existed in the first place nothing breaks the rule of all male Primarchs.


The Herald - May 28, 2009 01:11 AM (GMT)
I've always thought it was noteowrhty based on the lightening tower that dorn used the word tragedies. This would perhaps indicate that some ill had befallen them rather than them turning away from the emperor or otherwise defecting. having said that if they where wiped out due to excessive battle losses perhaps a more typical tragedy for marines then why would there records have been deleted and statues destroyed surely they would be honorated as sacrifices for the good of the crusade as the dead of those legiosn that where still extant were.

Arven - May 28, 2009 02:56 AM (GMT)
The problem with the whole wiping from records thing is that the Imperium would also make sure that the legion is wiped from existence as well. I mean they're surely not going to wipe only the records and just hope that no-one notices that barking mad Primarch leading an entire legion of stark-raving loonatics, right?

Just saying, it's probably wise to come up with a reason for either why the weren't hunted to extinction or how the imperium thinks that they've been destroyed/lost.

Crymzon - May 28, 2009 03:31 PM (GMT)
Lmao Arven man I've got images in my head now that will probably leave me chuckling for weeks.

Actually as far as wiping from existence is concerned have a little looksee at the work me and Lord Mortirion are doing on the II Legion. The whole legion is still fully functioning. They only don't exist because the Emperor told them they didn't. They're all demon hunters and very good at it. They go by a different name and wear different armour and they get from world to world unnoticed because they use webways. Yes there's a good reason for this and no it doesn't screw with the plot lol

Arden Fell - May 29, 2009 10:19 AM (GMT)
After reading the thread on Duality and the Chaos gods, what if the deal struck between the Emporer and Chaos for the power that he wanted, consisted of the age old 'for this power I will take your first born' kind of thing.

In return for granting the Emporer his power, each Chaos God wanted 1 son in return. Now there's three (four?) main gods. What if they each demanded one son? The first two gods were given the two missing primarchs, early on in the emperors reign when he was still a little scared of them. He could spin it several ways, one being that they were dabling in the use of sourcery.

Then when the two missing primarch and their armies were converted to chaos it would be a tradegy that the legions were struck down and as a result of their meddling with sourcery. At the same time the emperor would not want to be reminded of his betrayal of his sons. He would therefore remove their records as an example of what would happen if you failed to heed his words and exile those who still practiced it. After all wasn't Magnus estranged from the emperor.

But what if the third god decided he wanted Horus. Now if Horus was the Emporer's favourite son then he would not allow it. However as a result of their cunning, instead of taking Horus as they had the others anyway, they decided to teach the Emporer a lesson. So they planted the seeds of doubt in Horus and allowed him to choose them over his father. Thus starting the Heresy.

So what of the fourth son I hear you ask, well as they Heresy developed Chaos took more than it's fair share of the remaining Primarchs, and as such the debt was paid.

Anyway....

I still prefer the girlie Primarch theory or the Female Astartes but It was just a thought I had last night laying in bed. Thought it might be worth debating.....

Macewind - May 29, 2009 12:00 PM (GMT)
Your all crazy! Everyone knows the missing primarchs are megatron and optimus prime! Honestly, where did you think those two were hiding?

On the subject of chaos taking thier chosen son, this is very unlikely, for a start Fulgrim was never turned to chaos, dont want to spoil anything but those who've read fulgrim will know what im on about. Which raises another question. Do you think the painting will ever be found? And if so will he be able to return?

Gagoc TheAncient - May 29, 2009 10:16 PM (GMT)
Actually the story that the Emperor did a deal with chaos comes from Erebus when he was trying to influence Horus to Chaos' side.
Now stop me if I'm wrong, but didn't Erebus admit to lying at this time? Maybe not to exactly what, but....

The Herald - June 1, 2009 08:21 PM (GMT)
I beielve the notion of the emperor doing a deal with chaos stems from the corruption of the premise that he had stolen some of there power. The emperor draws his power from the warp (as do all psykers) the power the emperor drew from (and was bound to) was the positive element of the warp (which has largely been drowned out by the powers of chaos now) yet as the chaos gods view all of the warp as there domain they considered that he had stolen this portion of the warps energy from them.

dcpattyizbeast - September 21, 2009 03:22 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Macewind @ May 29 2009, 12:00 PM)
Your all crazy! Everyone knows the missing primarchs are megatron and optimus prime! Honestly, where did you think those two were hiding?

On the subject of chaos taking thier chosen son, this is very unlikely, for a start Fulgrim was never turned to chaos, dont want to spoil anything but those who've read fulgrim will know what im on about. Which raises another question. Do you think the painting will ever be found? And if so will he be able to return?


I just realized that! Him and the Daemon swapped places! It all makes sense!

Gagoc TheAncient - September 21, 2009 08:23 PM (GMT)
It echoes Dorian Gray.
So you have to wonder what the real Fulgrim looks like in 40K!

King Fluff - September 27, 2009 03:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Herald @ May 28 2009, 01:11 AM)
I've always thought it was noteowrhty based on the lightening tower that dorn used the word tragedies. This would perhaps indicate that some ill had befallen them rather than them turning away from the emperor or otherwise defecting. having said that if they where wiped out due to excessive battle losses perhaps a more typical tragedy for marines then why would there records have been deleted and statues destroyed surely they would be honorated as sacrifices for the good of the crusade as the dead of those legiosn that where still extant were.

Could well be feasible that the astartes were defeated absolutely in battle - perhaps against the eldar and the reason why the records were expunged was simply that to allow millions of super soldiers, who believe they are immortal, face their motality so totally would be a blow the imperium would not survive. The emperor and malcador certainly wouldn't want any astartes questioning their orders on the grounds of self preservation - isn't that indeed why the heresy started in the first place?

Lord_Mortirion - September 27, 2009 04:51 PM (GMT)
ooo i like the theorys goin on here... totally forgot this thread was going... was gonna say something but i just lost it... im sure ill remember later lol

Thousand Son - March 28, 2010 11:38 PM (GMT)
All this got me thinking. The reason that sex is never directly mentioned in 40k is that it doesn't sit well with a GW store full of kids. Fair dos.
I'm sure it's crossed the mind of many enthusiasts interested in background story. Either the Astartes have brothels, or the sexual impulse is chanelled into battle via the removal of certain 'parts'. :unsure:

I'm gonna cross the line here again. Homosexuality is (perhaps) implied by the absence of the issue. Like the old greek armies we're told about, not to mention prison.

Don't get on me too harsh. I'm sure everybody thought it too.
Tell me if this is too far - No harm or smut intended.

jonplaywu - October 25, 2010 07:31 AM (GMT)
I believe the answer is chemical castration. Least that makes the most sense. In the case of teh Space Wolves it might be an exception, and in the Chaos marines I would argue taht either does not exist or that its been done the "old fashion way"....snip!

As to why there are no female space marines, besides the obvious realworld tie-in that families get weird when they see breasts....especially in the USA. (Dunno why but there you are)

The reason I think is based on hormones. This comes from a semi-informed place so don't shred me too hard. Once women reach a certain age their hormones go all 'wonky' and I think their body goes through significant changes. Males go through much less. So add on the organs and such, and you get a more complicated human body to deal with than that of a male.

This is just a theory.

Jon

Hastur Sejanus - October 25, 2010 09:55 PM (GMT)
*joins in*
This could be utter rubbish but what I think is that both the legions were sent into the webway gate under the Imperial Palace to fight the baddies that were trying to get out and into the Palace. During this fight I think (like King Fluff's theory) that they were all killed and that due to the Heresy starting all records of their existence were wiped in order to help moral as no one wants to find out 9 legions have betrayed you and then to find out that you have to fight them off with two less legions than you previously had.
Just a thought :)

eFTy - October 25, 2010 11:03 PM (GMT)
Mno, that doesn't work as the legions were already lost when the Heresy broke out. There have also been hints that whatever happened to them could be seen as a foreshadowing of the Heresy itself.

TyraelVladinhurst - November 23, 2010 05:01 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (lord_caldera @ May 12 2009, 10:27 PM)
Hecate and the Hell Bunnies Legion are doing just fine, thank you. Her father just doesn't understand her, so he wiped their records and sent them to the warp to fight Chaos and stuff.

that was the second legion, carl and his 11th legion are pot heads.... yes i read primarch's as well

Kharn - January 7, 2011 02:06 AM (GMT)
Nah the XI are currently invisible like their Primarch, spying on either the Sisters of Battle or the Howling Banshees changing rooms. Whichever they prefer.

They also have a second founding that suffered some strange mutations and they have developed an unhealthy attraction to Ork women.

Whitehorn - January 7, 2011 09:38 AM (GMT)
Between 'pot heads' and 'Ork women', this thread really is one of absurd fantasy.

Arden Fell - January 7, 2011 11:07 AM (GMT)
What do ork women look like anyway? I always assumed they were like dwarf wommen and the only way to tell the difference was a hint of eyeliner and the occasional bow in their beards.

A bit like the women of Dundee.

Yvraith - January 7, 2011 11:40 AM (GMT)
Well the "Invisible" Primarch, has already been revealed in HH fiction.
He wasn't truly invisible, he just could make himself to be not seen when he wanted. :ph43r:

As for Orc women...
user posted image

Whitehorn - January 7, 2011 11:44 AM (GMT)
Indeed.

There are Orc women, but no Ork women.

With Gorkamorka, they changed Orks into fungi.

The Lieutenant - January 10, 2011 12:50 PM (GMT)
I don't know if anyone ever read Revenant's "Rise of the Tau" on the old Black Library forums, but his theory went much deeper than any of these.

Y'know how humans have the pariah gene because it was implanted within them by the C'Tan, way back in the dawn of the human race?
Well, his theory was that since anyone could have the pariah gene, two of the Primarch's had it. And, since their Legions are based on their genetic meterial, the Legion's had the pariah gene too.

Two entire Legion's of blanks, untouchable by the warp. However, they were ultimately, genetically, servants of the C'tan, and so rebelled, or vanished, or something, and became like the Pariahs in the Necron codex, only Astartes or indeed Primarch scale.

Which is interesting and fits all of the facts given in the HH books thus far. That I know of, anyway.

Happy theorising!

Thousand Son - January 28, 2011 10:28 PM (GMT)
Don't ask me what page but there is a tiny almost insignificant sneaky referance in Prospero Burns that I took to imply that the space wolves had previously delt with the extermination of another legion before the Thousad Sons. Look out for that when reading... Mind you, I did read it half clapped out on the bog.

Ogun - January 29, 2011 10:42 AM (GMT)
I noticed that too. p.443, 2nd to last page. It's so brief, blink and you'll miss it!

Thousand Son - January 29, 2011 11:39 PM (GMT)
Thanks. You are truly on the ball squire.

The Lieutenant - January 30, 2011 01:19 AM (GMT)
I wouldn't say its that subtle, but it cements the Space Wolve's role as the Emperor's executioners.

Its nice to know that the Thousand Sons isn't the first time that the Wolves have had to be used as executioners, that this is a role they've been performing for years.

Hope one day we'll find out what actually happened. Mind you, no answer they give will please everyone. People are gonna bitch about the two missing Legions regardless of anything they say.

Propaganda - January 30, 2011 03:33 AM (GMT)
I cant back this up with a page reference (yet) but I am fairly sure that in The Last Heretic that one of the Word Bearer's refers to the fact that the Terran remenants of Legio II and XI where folded into the Ultramarines, hence why the Ultra's had such an abundance of troops (above and beyond Guilliman's well documented logistical, strategic and tactical genius).

The obvious import of it being Terran remenants is because they're the blank-template marines created before the Primarch's where found and rapid creation of marines was started through a fusion of Primarch DNA with the previous incarnation.

Im fairly sure it was in the same Word Bearer's discussion that a number of inferrences where made as to why the two legions where scrubbed, that being they fell to Sorcery and/ or (what from a 40k view would be read as) Chaos. That was the inferrence I took from it, although I accept that its a decription of Chaos from someone who ultimately has no idea what Chaos is or that it even exists.

As a complete aside however...

With regards to female marines, for comedic purposes I quite like the idea that a load of Ultra's are female. It does create the start of a beautifull monty python-esque skit.

"Is everyone here for the Oath's of Moment"?
*High pitched* "Yes"
"Are there any women here today"?
*Fake deep voices* "No, no, no, no..."


On another aside, if the Space Wolves are the Emperor's go-to guys for lynching other legions, is Gulliman the Emperor's drill sergeant used to break and re-mold the remenants back into usuable space marines?

Calgar 2.0 - January 30, 2011 03:56 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Propaganda @ Jan 30 2011, 03:33 AM)
As a complete aside however...

With regards to female marines, for comedic purposes I quite like the idea that a load of Ultra's are female. It does create the start of a beautifull monty python-esque skit.

"Is everyone here for the Oath's of Moment"?
*High pitched* "Yes"
"Are there any women here today"?
*Fake deep voices* "No, no, no, no..."


On another aside, if the Space Wolves are the Emperor's go-to guys for lynching other legions, is Gulliman the Emperor's drill sergeant used to break and re-mold the remenants back into usuable space marines?

Do you mean he'd have them marching up and down the square? :lol:

Thousand Son - January 30, 2011 09:17 PM (GMT)
No, you got it there. All those big tough guy marines have got a vagina between their muscle poppin' legs.

Russ - April 22, 2012 08:30 PM (GMT)
Didn't the space wolves say something along the lines of wiping out the Thousand Sons was not the first time they had been called upon to perform such a task? I think I remember hearing about it somewhere but I can't remember where. Maybe thats what happened to the crazy primarch and his female twin?

ShroudFilm - April 23, 2012 08:05 AM (GMT)
Youch. A 15-month threadomancy...

Ilmarinen - April 23, 2012 11:54 AM (GMT)
Post count of 2, eh? Welcome noobie to the joys of TGC (and please don't threadromancy!) :lol:

Yep, there was a hint that the Wolves had carried out similar duties before.

Haven't heard about a female twin primarch though! ("Omegon, why are you wearing suspenders and lipstick?!?!")

Like the avatar image - Russ has never looked cuter and fluffier! :D

BigWill - April 23, 2012 04:42 PM (GMT)
I was about to get annoyed until I saw the post count.
Is it Threadcromany if the guy has a legit question?
But anytime I see a XI or II thread It always makes me want to make an alter ego like Simon who says things that are very harsh but true.
Stop therorizing on the missing two legions,they are never ever going to go into any sort of detail on them any info is purposely kept vauge and able to be interprented in many different ways.
This is 40k not Battletech the missing legions are not going to return to the inner sphere as the clans.




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