Title: Pre-Unity Terra
Description: Ursh, Hy Brasil and other Empires
Brother-Captain Basilus - August 16, 2008 04:04 PM (GMT)
EDIT by The Red Sorcerer: Brother Captain Basilius originally started this thread with his excellent summary of the Empire of Ursh. Rather than start a new thread, it makes sense to turn this one into a more general summary of what is known about the Pre-Unity Empires and Nations on Terra. This thread is currently a work in progress. 16/3 added the Franc and Yndonesian BlocUrsh
All details are taken from Horus Rising
Ursh was the mightiest empire on Terra before the Unification and therfore the biggest enemy to the Emperor's forces of Unity. Though Ursh was a strong empire, it doesn't seem to be technically too far advanced, for the better instruments and machines from the Nordafrik conclaves were reason enough for war.Location note: this is a personal guess
Since it didn't seem to be a long trip to the Nordafrik conclaves, and because of the fact that the forces of Unity seem to originate from Merica and Europe, it is likely that the empire of Ursh consisted of a lot of today's Asia, maybe even including parts of Russia. Another argument for this could be the names of the persons mentioned.Government of Ursh
It was ruled by the despot Kalagann. Kalagann is described as a being of cruel character, commanding vast armies of techno-barbarians. Other high positions were most likely inhabited by army generals, because it was a time of total war more than of politics.
Named generals are: Lurtois, Sheng Khal (also: Shang Khal) and Quallodon. Armies of Ursh
The armies of Ursh consisted of mostly technobarbarians and human soldiers. Some armies are known, but there were many more for sure.The Roma
The Roma were organized mercenary fliers. Highly skilled pilots, they were said to never touch the earth beneath them. They were trained on airborne attacks, and therefore of high value for the generals of Ursh.The Red Engines
Both the Red Engines and the Tupelov Lancers followed the command of Sheng Khal.
The Red Engines were siege masters, with engines able to raze whole fortresses or cities to the ground. The Tupelov Lancers
The Lancers are described as being screaming berzerkers. So one can guess that these warriors were trained for close-combat action, ruthless and deadly, an equivalent to M30/M40 World Eaters.Special UnitsOneirocriticks :
The oneirocriticks were personal counsellors of Sheng Khal. The name means 'interpreters of dreams', but it is likely that they used some kind of warp sorcery to guide Shang Khal in his actions.Wrathsingers :
Again likely to be sorcerors that used the powers of the warp. They were able to use magic, to change the environment to their advantage or to kill men with their spells.Known PersonsKalagann
: Ruler of UrshLurtois
: General, not further mentionedSheng Khal/Shang Khal)
: General, leader of the attack against the Nordafrik conclavesQuallodon
: General, took the place of Sheng Khal after his deathAnult Keyser
: Lord Martial of the Tupelov Lancers, 2nd in command during the battle of Xozer during the attack on tha Nordafrik conclaves, was slain by a daemonWilhym Mardol
: Lieutenant in Anult Keyser's armyMafeo Orde
: Master of Sheng Khal's WrathsingersChaotic Influence on Ursh
The Chronicles of Ursh mentions primordial gods, and especially the Oneirocriticks and Wrathsingers speak of the influence of the ruinous powers. Also, Kalagann's sorcerous powers formed the main part of Ursh's might. So it is highly possible that the Chaos Gods were the true lords of Ursh, and Kalagann being their marionette.The Fall of Ursh
During the Wars of Unification, Ursh was conquered by the Emperor and his forces in an apocalyptic conquest.Hy Brasil
All details from 'Blood Games', Tales of Heresy
Hy Brasil is 'the most powerful of all the Sud Merican cantons'. During the Unification wars it was ruled by Dalmoth Kyn, 'one of the last tyrants to hold out against the Emperor’s forces'. Once he was defeated rule passed to Lord Pherom Sichar, a direct descendant of Kyn.Location
Fairly obviously centred on Brazil in South America. Capital
Hy Brasil is ruled from the Planalto, a massive Hive Conurbation - the Goverment is based in the Sao Paol part. The Palanto draws its power from 'a series of vast reactors buried in the heart of the main conurbation', whose heat exchange processes mean that the reactor district is 'caked in thick sheet-ice all year round, forming a gigantic frost park thirty kilometres square'. This area is known as the 'Winter Fields' and is used for recreation by local inhabitants.Military
The military forces of Hy Brasil are known as 'The Dracos' (while this is post-unification, it seems implied they are part of an older tradition so this was probably the case pre-unification as well). They wear 'scaled green armour'. These may well be the same regiment as the 'Ouranti Draks', an Imperial Army regiment that campaigned with the Word Bearers. They are described as 'swarthy-skinned fighters exclusively recruited from the desiccated jungle regions of Sud Merica' and wear scaled cloaks and 'reptilian helmets'. Government
Although controlled by the Lord of Hy Brasil, the area (at least post-unity) also has a bicameral parliament. The parlaiment is diveided into upper and lower chambers and is based at Parliament House at the edge of the Winter Fields in Sao Paol. The building is 'a splendid structure built from filaments of silvered steel and pylons of a pale stone'.The Franc
Info from 'The Last Church', Tales of Heresy
The Frank were a 'fractious people before Unity and did not take kindly to invaders'.Location
Clearly, the Lands of the Franc are based on modern France.History
Havuleq D’agross was the last independent ruler of the Franc, leading a rebellion against Imperial rule and killing the Emperor's appointed governor. His rebellion began in Avelroi, but rapidly spread until he could muster a force of 50,000 rebels, largely unskilled militia. They eventually fought the Emeror's armies at Gaduare, 'a line of high hills' buy the ruins of Guaduare Bastion. There they were wiped out by a force of less than 5,000 Imperial troops, including proto-Space Marines.Yndonesic Bloc
Info from Horus Rising
and 'The Last Church', Tales of Heresy
Based around Indonesia, though the exact extent of the area is unknown.Government
The Yndonesic Bloc was ruled by Cardinal Tang prior to unification, who was a religious leader and Ethnarch
who practiced Eugenics. He wished to 'return the world to a pre-technological age', burning 'scientists, mathematicians and philosophers' who opposed his Church's views. He also killed millions in pogroms and death camps in an attempt to secure racial purity. Military
Little information is known. The Stormbird was developed by the Yndonesic Bloc (given Cardinal Tang's goverments approach to technology, probably after his death) and used against the Pan-Pacific Tribes during the Unification wars.Achaemenid Empire
Details from A Thousand SonsLocation
The Achaemenid Empire is another name for the ancient Persian Empire, so the location will be somewhere to the east of the Mediterranean, probably centered roughly on current Iran (the full extent of the original Achaemenid Empire can be seen hereHistory
The Achaemenid Empire is noted as being made up of 'wealthy tribes' who were quick to ally with the Empire during unification, and therefore avoided the horrors of atomic war and invasion by the Emperor's armies. In addition, their biological heritage was uncontaminated by the 'inherited flaws and viral defects' of other tribes, making them good candidates for recruitment into the Space Marine regiments - Arhiman of the Thousand Sons and his brother were both recruited from the area.
VESPASIAN - August 16, 2008 04:40 PM (GMT)
Excellent work there! Well done Brother-Captain Basilus.
The only thing that I can point out thus far is that the Armies of Ursh did not include any proto-Astartes; the comparatively primative genetically enhanced warriors created by the Emperor.
The thunder armoured proto-astartes were actually fighting for the forces of Unity against Ursh, and were warriors unique to the Emperor's army.
Nevertheless it is a superb consolidation of the information that will definately be of huge benefit to all members!
Well I think I have you to blame now for increasing my interest in the Wars of Unification! :D
Brother-Captain Basilus - August 16, 2008 04:58 PM (GMT)
Yeah, thanks, edited the part about the proto-astartes out ;)
And I actually built a miniature for a general of Ursh, I have now to decide wether to make him Shang Khal or Kalagann himself :ph43r:
Oh, and I'm highly interested in the WoU, but there's little to absolutely no information about them.
VESPASIAN - August 16, 2008 05:04 PM (GMT)
I agree, there is very little information on the Wars of Unification. :angry:
We will just have to do more threads to do with information on them. Your sterling post has definately started us on the right path!
I would be great to see your miniature on the forum.
EDIT: Actually I have decided that this is such an excellent and informative thread that it deserves to be pinned! Thanks Brother-Captain Basilus.
ShroudFilm - August 17, 2008 10:52 PM (GMT)
Great work BCB, and good call on the pin Vesp!
Battle Brother Loken - December 21, 2008 10:15 PM (GMT)
i know this is threadomancy but hear me out
did the emperor destroy them or just kill alot of them and take over
if it is a the latter then you could theme a army around desendance of Ursh
also i think if he did not kill them wouldent they all just fall into the folds of his armys?
if so this would be very possible in my mind to feild a 30k army of Ursh fighitng for the Emperor
ShroudFilm - December 21, 2008 10:43 PM (GMT)
From The Lightning Tower:
All the petty dynasts and ethnarchs, all the clan-nations and gene-septs, all the despots and pan-continental tyrants, had been quelled or crushed, overthrown or annexed. Some, the smartest and most prescient, had offered terms and been embraced to the bosom of the new rule. Better fealty than the wrath of the warriors in thunder armour.
Better submission than the enmity of the world's new master.
Basically, you join or die. It's much the same as the rest of the Great Crusade. However, I think once you join, you have to adopt the Imperial way of doing things - local/regional attitudes would not likely be tolerated.
Battle Brother Loken - December 22, 2008 06:59 AM (GMT)
Torg - December 22, 2008 04:51 PM (GMT)
I always wondered if there are any of the space marines that are from Ursh,
possibly either Proto space wolves or Luna wolves,as the name Ursh kinda of reminds me of Russia abit,so is it possible one of them came from Ursh? :huh:
Magos Explorator - December 22, 2008 10:28 PM (GMT)
I don't see why not. I always assumed that there would be a lot of Terrans in the Legions throughout the Great Crusade, and that they'd eventually have been recruited from all over Earth.
Kharn - December 22, 2008 11:21 PM (GMT)
I thought in Legion it was stated that the Geno forces were the only Terran force/army allowed to keep its old ways or something? Either that or they were the only ones allowed to live.
Magos Explorator - December 23, 2008 12:03 AM (GMT)
I think there would have been ample time after the Unification for youth form the areas of former empires to be inducted into the Marines: they can't all have come from whichever part of Terra the Emperor initially controlled!
The Red Sorcerer - February 5, 2010 02:31 PM (GMT)
Updated with info on Hy Brasil - the eventual intention is to turn this thread into a repositry for everything we know about the Empires and Nations of Terra prior to Unification.
Whitehorn - March 11, 2010 12:02 PM (GMT)
Just to put a tick against using men from Ursh and beyond for marines...
|QUOTE (Collected Visions)|
|As time went by the number of Space Marines quickly increased as the Emperor recruited men from among the recently conquered tribes of Earth|
Calgar 2.0 - March 16, 2010 12:43 AM (GMT)
Is there any info on the government of Merica, Jermani, or Europa? These are entries I'd like to see.
The Red Sorcerer - March 16, 2010 11:27 AM (GMT)
Not that much detail sadly. As far as Europe goes, Blood Games mentions 'the Dolomite Shrines overlooking the Pit of Venezia' (the Dolomites and Venice in Northern Italy). The Last Church has some nice details, including the fact that the Mediterranean has dried out and become a desert - it is described as a 'dust bowl' that has to be crossed by a sand-skimmer. It also has info on the Franc, which I have added to the original post. The story also mentions the Scandians (Scandinavia), raiders who would not accept Unity and were eventually wiped out by the Emperor's armies.
There are no details on the Jermani or (Nord) Merica as far as I'm aware, although Hy Brasil is in Sud Merica and provides us with some details from that area.
Iron Corsair - March 16, 2010 12:13 PM (GMT)
On Lexicanum it says that:
|Terra is a hive world, the earth has long ago been stripped of all forms of resources; its soil is utterly barren and its atmosphere is a fog of pollution.|
Is that the way it is during the Unification Wars?
Also, when they say fighting is mostly Hand-to-Hand, I assume that means chain weapons for Proto-Astartes, and for Imperial Army bayonets. Would the other nations use these weapons? I assume they would but....
Lastly, were tanks common during the Unification Wars in any of the tribes/empires(Including the Big E's.)?
The Red Sorcerer - March 16, 2010 01:06 PM (GMT)
|Is that the way it is during the Unification Wars?|
Actually, there's a bit of contradiction regarding the state of Terra. Horus Rising mentions an ancient map of Terra 'from an age long gone, before the rise of the hives or the molestation of war, with coastlines and oceans and mountains of an aspect long since erased or covered over.’ Fulgrim states that Terra is 'a world whose oceans had long since boiled away in ancient wars or environmental catastrophes'. However, Blood Games states 'ancient, apocalyptic wars had boiled away many of the oceans' (bold is mine) and mentions 'oceanic platforms rigging for submarine function and slowly submerging into the protective bosom of the waters' as part of Terra's preparation for Horus' invasion, as well as the old priest being thrown 'off the cliff and into the sea' in his youth. The impression I get from the stories in Tales of Heresy (which give more detail on Terra during this period than the others) is that certainly during the Unification period it was not the wasteland it is in 40K - mentions of oceans, marshes, rain, villages and towns (rather than the Hive Cities it has in the 40K present) certainly suggest it was not a barren wasteland. Once the Emperor took control its probable that industrialisation and the growth of urban centres followed fairly rapidly - there is mention of rapid industrialisation folowing the Emperor's conquests in The Last Church.
|Also, when they say fighting is mostly Hand-to-Hand, I assume that means chain weapons for Proto-Astartes, and for Imperial Army bayonets.|
Certainly the bolter seems to have been in use by the Astartes during this period, and other firearms were in use as well - The Last Church mentions the rebel army of the Franc being armed with 'swords, pistols and rifles'. It seems that both close combat and ranged weapons were in fairly common use.
|Lastly, were tanks common during the Unification Wars in any of the tribes/empires(Including the Big E's.)?|
There's little to go on sadly. Certainly technological vehicles were in use (the interceptors of the Roma, the 'Red Engines' of Ursh, the Stormbirds of the Yndonesic Bloc) but weather they were common is unknown.
Iron Corsair - March 16, 2010 01:21 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the help, Red!
Almost makes you go crazy with the amount of contradiction between their sources!
I like the idea of Earth still retaining water, and inhabited with villages because the villages part could make some interesting scenes such as some Warlord or even one of the Astarte Regiments bullying a village into surrendering what little they have.
|Certainly the bolter seems to have been in use by the Astartes during this period, and other firearms were in use as well - The Last Church mentions the rebel army of the Franc being armed with 'swords, pistols and rifles'. It seems that both close combat and ranged weapons were in fairly common use. |
Thanks for clearing that up!
|There's little to go on sadly. Certainly technological vehicles were in use (the interceptors of the Roma, the 'Red Engines' of Ursh, the Stormbirds of the Yndonesic Bloc) but weather they were common is unknown. |
That's too bad. :(
Oh well, at least that means I can make the fluff as I go along!
Calgar 2.0 - March 16, 2010 04:59 PM (GMT)
BTW, can you post a picture of the Ursh mini, I've been dieing to see it.! :D
malika - May 28, 2010 07:57 PM (GMT)
Found a little interesting bit in the Lost and the Damned book. Apparently the Emperor was known as "The New Man" before having conquered Terra. he fought everywhere, from Antarctica to Greenland, and apparently also in the "deserts of Amazonia". I guess the Amazon river dried up in the future and a desert has grown around it?
More info can also be found here
Calgar 2.0 - June 11, 2010 05:27 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (malika @ May 28 2010, 07:57 PM)|
| Found a little interesting bit in the Lost and the Damned book. Apparently the Emperor was known as "The New Man" before having conquered Terra. he fought everywhere, from Antarctica to Greenland, and apparently also in the "deserts of Amazonia". I guess the Amazon river dried up in the future and a desert has grown around it? |
More info can also be found here!
What is the Lost and Damned book?
Magos Explorator - June 11, 2010 06:20 AM (GMT)
It's one of a pair of classic Chaos sourcebooks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_of_Chaos_(Warhammer)
(Although there's some good general Imperium fluff in there, too!)
Doghouse - August 8, 2010 10:48 PM (GMT)
Rather than start a new thread...
Just out of interest in case anyone has gleamed any further information from the unification wars has there ever been any mention of marine vehicles from this time other than the storm bird?
I'm interesting in finding out if the thunder warriors would have had access to vehicles like rhinos or dreadnoughts at this time.
It seems possible that they may have towards the end but what do other people think about this?
malika - August 9, 2010 05:54 AM (GMT)
I don't know if the Dreadnoughts are STC based or not. The Rhinos were very common vehicles which were also used for non-military purposes, I guess they might have been around on Terra. A Land Speeder/Raider here and there might even have been possible. Do note that the Land vehicles were discovered by Arkhan (sp?) Land over on Mars, or at least the STC's for them, meaning that while these vehicles existed before that, they were only present in limited numbers and weren't put to use in such a large scale until after the STC was recovered.
Falyaet Morphaeus - August 9, 2010 06:07 AM (GMT)
Wouldn't essentially ALL of the technology be STC based?
Pacific - August 9, 2010 12:06 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (malika @ Aug 9 2010, 05:54 AM)|
| I don't know if the Dreadnoughts are STC based or not. The Rhinos were very common vehicles which were also used for non-military purposes, I guess they might have been around on Terra. A Land Speeder/Raider here and there might even have been possible. Do note that the Land vehicles were discovered by Arkhan (sp?) Land over on Mars, or at least the STC's for them, meaning that while these vehicles existed before that, they were only present in limited numbers and weren't put to use in such a large scale until after the STC was recovered. |
For me thats quite possibly the lamest piece of fluff that GW has ever produced - not funny enough to put in alongside the tongue-in-cheek humour of the 'black planet' (birmingham), or the orc who went back in time and killed himself so he could have a backup of his favorite gun, but also a victim of someone trying to hit a word count before a deadline (i.e. crap)
Next up, the subterranean raider, first invented by Stephen Subterranean, or we might read about the Hit-and-Run assault squads which first appeared in the Horus Heresy, the brain child of Brother-Captain Hit-and-Run of the White Scars.
ShroudFilm - August 9, 2010 12:19 PM (GMT)
Not to mention Simon Warhound and his contribution to the STC library...
Doghouse - August 16, 2010 08:01 PM (GMT)
So just a thought, given that Thunder Armour is the same size as the other suits does this mean that the proto-astartes or thunder warriors were the same size as the Crusade marines?
ShroudFilm - August 16, 2010 08:04 PM (GMT)
I don't believe so - I thought that Terran Veterans were described as being slightly shorter than post-Primarch ones?
Doghouse - August 16, 2010 08:13 PM (GMT)
That's what I thought as well but wasn't sure. I'm trying to establish how much bigger they'd be compared to a regular human.
I know the info is a bit sketchy but am I right in thinking that the initial forces of the Emperor were human but were later augmented as the Unification Wars progressed?
Given that they fought a number of different tyrants on different continents I'd imagine that the wars could have lasted anything like up to hundred years or more.
I could be wrong here but wasn't there mention of augmented humans fighting alongside the proto-astartes in Legion as well?
ShroudFilm - August 16, 2010 08:54 PM (GMT)
All I can recall is that the Thunder Warriors in 'The Last Church' were described as giants. So that muddies the waters again, really!
Doghouse - August 16, 2010 09:13 PM (GMT)
Yeah I remember that bit as well. I think I'm going to have to take a look at the last church story and have a root around in Legion to see what it says.
Gagoc TheAncient - August 16, 2010 10:23 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Aug 16 2010, 09:54 PM)|
| All I can recall is that the Thunder Warriors in 'The Last Church' were described as giants. So that muddies the waters again, really! |
Ah, but those Thunder Warriors were probably Custodes who are supposed to be taller than Astartes.
The original Thunder Warriors were probably big for a human, but not not Astartes-big. I'd say they were 6-7ft tall (1.8-2.1 metres).
ShroudFilm - August 16, 2010 11:11 PM (GMT)
I'm not sure that they are Custodes - aren't they referred to as being the same ones who the priest guy fought in battle years before, etc?
IIRC, the Custodes always had their nicer-than-Astartes artificer armour.
Iron Corsair - August 17, 2010 01:31 PM (GMT)
Do you people think that the Imperial Guard codex would be the best codex to use to represent Ursh or the Nordafrik Conclaves? Based upon what little information we have, I was thinking of using a Primaris Psyker to represent their dark, sorcerous powers and have at least one Psyker Battle Squad.
For Ursh, I would probably make it mostly an infantry force, because from what I've read in the beginning of the thread, they weren't as technologically advanced as the Nordafrik Conclaves.
For the Nordafrik Conclaves, I would probably go the combined arms route, and have some tanks, mechanized infantry, and normal foot sloggers.
The only problem with those is to make them look like their non-Imperial; not just an Imperial regiment with an abnormal amount of pyskers.
malika - August 19, 2010 05:52 PM (GMT)
Hy Brazil...shame the authors didn't play with the Irish angle: LINK
malika - January 6, 2011 08:57 AM (GMT)
By the way, is there any info on the Middle East?
Ilmarinen - January 6, 2011 09:46 AM (GMT)
Just to throw in an extra question - do we know when Arkhan Land found the STC data for the Speeder and Raider? They were in use in the Great Crusade, but did he discover them before or after the Emperor made his pact with Mars?
Hero of Istvaan - January 6, 2011 10:50 AM (GMT)
as for a definitive 'date' not as far as i know but all info suggests it was before the pact with mars. As you said it was in use from the early crusade as we know, and arkhan land found the stc's in the Librarius Omnis under the surface of mars and he died down there looking for more stc's. the info from white dwarf 245 p. 21, by Gav Thorpe says that his second expedition into the vault after the discovery of the raider and speeder was declared lost after 2 centuries without contact, and his vox diary was later found describing the suspicious loss of his team to an unknown entity within the vault :ph43r:
hope it helps ;)