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Title: Space Marine Snipers
Description: Yes not scouts


Brother-Captain Lucius - July 22, 2008 01:28 AM (GMT)
I was thinking about adding and making a squad of space marines with sniper rifles....not scouts but I do not know if space marines themselves carried the rifles or just the scouts.

In force organization chart they would be a heavy support choice being a devastator squad?

What do u think?

GreyWolf - July 22, 2008 05:31 AM (GMT)
Hmm, I think that full-fledged marines would normally be seen as too valuable an asset to "waste" in the rear as snipers. Their extraordinary resilience when compared to regular troops seems to suggest that they constantly be on the front lines, moving fast, rather than being far away from the enemy where they could shoot them at their leisure. Also, scouts traditionally fill that role in order to get them used to being on their own and self-sufficient while simultaneously freeing up the more experienced marines for the more brutal assaults.
That being said, certain legions/ chapters may be able to get away with sniper marines, but only if they were played out ahead of the rest of the army, in a forward position where their superior staying power would actually be useful. In the rear, a marine is WORSE than a scout, because the marine costs more points than a scout, and is the same as far as shooting goes. With the new codex, however, that may change.

In short, I generally don't see the point in full marines being snipers, but I wouldn't mind seeing it if they were played right and had some suitable fluff explaining their existence.
Hope that helps.

Weiss - July 22, 2008 06:50 AM (GMT)
Well for PRE-heresy, pictures in the artbooks seem to point towards there being power-armoured recon squads who look like they use sniper rifles (either that or they're using lasguns - which is just silly in my opinion... :P).

Remember that the Legions did not have the manpower problems that the "current" chapters do, so therefore could afford to have veteran snipers in the rear/taking up concealed positions at the front without jeopardising mission resources.

So personally, I'd say go ahead. Check out the Iron Hands army list, in the troops section, there's an entry for recon squads. I don't see why anyone would complain either - they're more expensive than scouts for exactly the same thing...

Brother-Captain Lucius - July 22, 2008 11:30 AM (GMT)
Thanks weiss for that backround fluff so I will go ahead and start converting marines to carry rifles and see how they turn out!

Magos Explorator - July 22, 2008 01:36 PM (GMT)
You could always convert models but use the scout rules.

Brother-Captain Lucius - July 22, 2008 01:47 PM (GMT)
nah I'll convert them then use them as devastators with sniper rifles

Shockwave - July 22, 2008 03:23 PM (GMT)
I think the better fluff reason might be because Astartes are, at their core, shock troops. They're excellent fighters, but it's their impact on morale and psychological effect they have that wins them battles.

Sniping doesn't let them really take advantage of this.

It also might appear to be cowardly or dishonourable to some Legions/Chapters, to kill from afar rather than the whole 'take the fight to the enemy' ethos they generally have.

Weiss - July 22, 2008 04:18 PM (GMT)
Sniping can have a huge effect on morale as well though... Also, recon squads are not assault squads, they are there to reconnoitre (surprise, surprise), and one of the best ways for them to have an effect on the battle to come would be to pop off a few officers while the enemy are still advancing/hunkered down, wait for them to pass and grab an objective behind the lines. This seems like a perfectly suitable role for space marines to me.

In any game outside my group, I'll be using my recon marines as normal scouts.

Pacific - July 22, 2008 06:53 PM (GMT)
As Weiss has said, I think its important to emphasise the difference in the concept of Space Marine Chapters and Marine Legions before and during the Horus Heresy.

A legion, sometimes comprising of a million soldiers or more, is an army within itself. As such, it must be comprised of many more tactical elements than the current timelines emphasis on marine 'shock troops' where many of the more mundane/less vital operations are carried out by imperial troops.

Hence why in some of the HH artwork you see marines as recon/scouts, operating battery or artillery weaponry, or acting as garrison troops.

With the way that the new rules are going, I can see nothing wrong with using small 5-man tactical squads as 'recon' groups in normal games, and perhaps introducing some special rules if your opponent is friendly to the cause :)

Brother-Captain Lucius - July 22, 2008 08:50 PM (GMT)
that's my plan...to use them in friendly games

BIG DOOK 6 - July 25, 2008 08:09 AM (GMT)
There already is a marine sniper, a devestater with a lascannon

Pacific - July 29, 2008 08:52 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Weiss @ Jul 22 2008, 06:50 AM)
Well for PRE-heresy, pictures in the artbooks seem to point towards there being power-armoured recon squads who look like they use sniper rifles (either that or they're using lasguns - which is just silly in my opinion... :P).

So personally, I'd say go ahead. Check out the Iron Hands army list, in the troops section, there's an entry for recon squads. I don't see why anyone would complain either - they're more expensive than scouts for exactly the same thing...

Weiss - I dont suppose you have a ref. for the picture of the power armoured marines with sniper rifles do you? The more i think about this, the more it seems like a good idea :)

Did you intend to use the marines as 'counts as' scouts, or are you making up house rules for their use as a recon squad?

As I'm using the BA army list for my WE at least I will have WS/BS4 scouts if I choose the 'counts as' option, although im not sure how I can explain the 4+ armour save :lol:

Astelan - July 29, 2008 09:53 PM (GMT)
To be honest although Collected Visions does feature Power Armoured recon units they do apear either armed with bolters or (steady yourselves) lasguns... I seem to recall RT era Marines being equipped with the option for flashlights/lasguns

P.69 Space Wolf recon squad. P.142 Prahopte recon Squad. P.155 Maneus recon squad

Pacific - July 29, 2008 11:11 PM (GMT)
Is that from the 'all 4 HH books in one' book I take it Astelan ? Many thanks for that!

Well I guess that lasguns makes sense in one respect - I remember reading a description of the sniper rifle, where it stated that the weapon used a laser pulse to knock through the armour, before administering a toxic dart.

I can imagine there being some kind of modification of the lasgun, perhaps to its power consumption/shot ratio. Rather than the usual semi-automatic modes and many shots per power cell, perhaps it could have 4 or 5 high power blasts that literally punch through the armour of anything it hits. I can also imagine the laser being more accurate than a traditional 'slug' sniper rifle, not being effected by gravity or wind conditions - I guess it would have the problem of degredation over distance, but again modifications for accuracy and power could be made at the expense of rate of fire.

Gagoc TheAncient - July 30, 2008 01:10 AM (GMT)
Scout Snipers don't use the type of Power Cells that your standard IG guardsman does. His slots into the lasrifle.
No the Scouts sniper-rifles use an external power-pack similar to that used for Hellguns by IG Stormtroopers. This could be linked to why both get an Ap rating while lasguns don't.

Corax - July 30, 2008 02:38 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Gagoc TheAncient @ Jul 29 2008, 08:10 PM)
Scout Snipers don't use the type of Power Cells that your standard IG guardsman does. His slots into the lasrifle.
No the Scouts sniper-rifles use an external power-pack similar to that used for Hellguns by IG Stormtroopers. This could be linked to why both get an Ap rating while lasguns don't.

Scouts use the long las right?

Falyaet Morphaeus - August 3, 2008 06:56 AM (GMT)
You could potentially use them in a kill team scenario, or something.. For example... a group of Ultramarines lost contact with HQ and got trapped behind enemy lines. In order to create a distraction for their escape, they need to assassinate the enemy leader that controls a certain sector. They cant take the area by storm, so they need to be covert.... So they snipe him.

Easy enough, right?

Shockwave - August 3, 2008 09:17 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Corax @ Jul 30 2008, 02:38 AM)
QUOTE (Gagoc TheAncient @ Jul 29 2008, 08:10 PM)
Scout Snipers don't use the type of Power Cells that your standard IG guardsman does. His slots into the lasrifle.
No the Scouts sniper-rifles use an external power-pack similar to that used for Hellguns by IG Stormtroopers. This could be linked to why both get an Ap rating while lasguns don't.

Scouts use the long las right?

No, unless it's been changed in the lore, they use Needle Sniper Rifles.

Gagoc TheAncient - August 3, 2008 09:32 PM (GMT)
Shockwave's right, they use Needle rifles.
They use a Laser to propel a lethal toxin into the target. It's this combination of Lasweapon and toxin that makes them so lethal!

Corax - August 4, 2008 12:30 AM (GMT)
I thought they used the long las because of the fact that their rifle looks exactly like the long las, not a needle sniper rifle.

Shockwave - August 4, 2008 08:07 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Corax @ Aug 4 2008, 12:30 AM)
I thought they used the long las because of the fact that their rifle looks exactly like the long las, not a needle sniper rifle.

The Long Las was basically invented by Abnett during the Gaunt's Ghosts books, and has since been adopted into the game as the weapon of choice for Guard Snipers.

Back in 2nd Ed, the only Sniper who didn't use a Needle Rifle was the Vindicare, because the Exitus rifle was, in a word, ridiculously overpowered. :)

Originally, Eldar Rangers also used Needle Sniper Rifles, but they now have their own weird (and undescribed in how they work) Rifle.

Pacific - August 4, 2008 08:51 AM (GMT)
Damn those enigmatic eldar :)

I think what is clear from the above discussion is that there is room for improvisation when devising a sniper type weapon for your unit.

There are many ways to catch a water mole, as they say.

Brother-Captain Lucius - August 6, 2008 12:15 AM (GMT)
Well now that i have found out a lot of background for them i will use them as recon squads but if that dosent work then i will make up my own rules for them!

Brother-Captain Lucius - August 14, 2008 03:53 AM (GMT)
The models i am goin to use for the snipers are dark angel veteran marine body's + legs, scout sniper rifles, tactical squad stuff and the bases are going to be urban based :P

Pacific - August 14, 2008 08:22 AM (GMT)
Out of interest Lucius, are you going for the standard colour scheme for your recon squads, or are you using some sort of camoflage?

The problem I have is using World Eaters, white and blue power armour must show up from a mile away and would be practically useless for anyone trying to stay hidden!

RE: your other post - unfortunately I don't have a scanner anymore and so can't scan the pictures from the HH artbooks sorry (and there also don't appear to be any torrents on the net either which could be used).

Weiss - August 14, 2008 08:45 AM (GMT)
http://www.pa-sy.com/hhccg/frame.php

This site should have them (though I'm very sorry, I do not have time to go through it for you...).

Brother-Captain Lucius - August 16, 2008 09:39 PM (GMT)
Pacific I'm not sure yet as to what way i am going to paint them but i will probably use and urban colour scheme as my force is themed around Isstvan III.

Weiss Thanks for that....it was very helpful for the artwork for the recon squad and for a dreadnaught.

Calgar 2.0 - October 5, 2009 04:59 PM (GMT)
In the Sabbats World Crusade special rules, there was a special devastator squad entry for a Space Marine chapter. They used heavy bolters and Sniper Rifles. This was created as a Desert Warfare unit for the chapter, therefore you could probably use the rules (If you could find them :D .).

Pacific - October 5, 2009 07:40 PM (GMT)
You mean the campaign book that GW released some years ago?

Calgar 2.0 - October 5, 2009 09:40 PM (GMT)
Yes, I believe it might have actually been an option for all marine players now that I think about it. All I know is that it was in GW's campaign booklet. Try Google-ing it.

Pacific - October 6, 2009 08:14 AM (GMT)
The funny thing was it was more or less ignored when it was released (and TBH I think a bit of a weak effort on GW's part, they seemed to have some fetish for getting really old, late 19th century military photos and photoshopping them) - now, try and get a copy for less than 70 on ebay! <_<

A mate of mine has got a copy though i think, will have to get him to look it up!

Calgar 2.0 - October 6, 2009 04:43 PM (GMT)
Cool! Though I doubt you'll find the rules in it, that is, if your talking about the background book. They were in some sort of downloadable campaign rules booklet, kind of like the Medusa V downloadable version.

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 01:20 PM (GMT)
* resurrect*

I'm going through extra squad types for my codex and came across the selection of marine recon squads, all seemingly wielding these Lasguns.

Have we had any novel-based support for such things since this thread?

Pacific - September 29, 2010 01:46 PM (GMT)
BRAAAINNNNSSSS...

*shoots the zombie which was about to attack Whitehorn* ^_^

I am going to say tentatively ... no. Unless it's in the very latest batch (First Heretic etc.) But, I couldn't tell you what I ate for breakfast yesterday so I'll need some corroboration on that!

What kind of thing did you have in mind? Some kind of infiltrate/scout ability, or maybe even in built teleport homer (or if you are making new rules, increase in accuracy of ordinance attacks to represent their recon ability?)

They are clearly represented in the Collected Visions books, I suppose in their simplest form you could just say scouts in power armour. Looking at the comments over the previous page, there is some debate as to what kind of weapon they would hold, and how far the description would swing between being a marine-held lasgun and a full on sniper rifle.

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 01:52 PM (GMT)
I'm not looking for an excuse to make a new squad, but rather using background to see if there's any gems I can include.


Cloud Runner - September 29, 2010 04:26 PM (GMT)
The new Deathwatch rulebook has marines trained in the use of las weaons and auto weapons as standard (presumably in case they run out of bolter ammo :blink: ) so I don't see why that can't be extrapolated backwards into Heresy era.


Or there's the stalker pattern bolters and ammo to consider as well

ShroudFilm - September 29, 2010 05:19 PM (GMT)
Recon marines armed with carbine weapons feature in the artwork.

Whitehorn - September 29, 2010 10:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShroudFilm @ Sep 29 2010, 05:19 PM)
Recon marines armed with carbine weapons feature in the artwork.

I know, hence my post. I'm looking for support in the literature.

Calgar 2.0 - October 5, 2010 08:22 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Whitehorn @ Sep 29 2010, 10:09 PM)
I know, hence my post. I'm looking for support in the literature.

Couldn't you count the marines in Space Marine from Black Library?

Pacific - October 6, 2010 02:00 AM (GMT)
Calgar, are you referring to the bit near the start of the book where they are just ordinary scouts?

Whitehorn, I think having some kind of recon-scout squad in power armour would be a good option for any codex you are making, if you are trying to make something which is inclusive of PH-era units. The several pictures in Collected Visions should be more than enough of a prompt IMO (and from what we know about the wider diversity of marine roles at that time) to think that they were a valid unit and could be represented on the tabletop.




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