Getting Finished

I had mentioned in the" Knock umm out " post, That

First let me xplain what I considerd finished.

A dog that will Honor another if its truly treed.
A dog that will split tree if nessary.
A dog that will not tree on a slick tree.
A dog that will strike first and tree first if there is game and not just go barking because of the others.
A dog that Finds the game if its there and not just follow untill another dog finds it.
A dog that will not false tree if there is no game .
A dog that will work a track and stay tracking and not jump track to get in line with the others.
A dog that will not leave treed game Unless called off.
Ect....

I trained / hunted my pups alone most of the time. With other dogs on occasion just to learn them to be social. (Walkers black and tans blue ticks and plots and leapard curs and jack russels ).

When I thought it was time I would take them to the night hunts and compitions and run them with Dogs that the pups did not Know. Not to make a title on them ( even though I did a few) but to make them want to be first and compete with the other dogs. This is what I ment by turning the switch on in the qoute above.

Now the Question with squirrel dogs and about finishing a squirrel dog is .

Do you think this tactic would apply, not as to hunting compitions but just hunting it with finished dogs?
Or will a squirrel dog finish out, In time working alone?


My experiance has in the majority, been with hounds and coons.

Let me explain. . If I drew a cast back then or was hunting with others. That I new had fowl dogs or just plain old trashy dogs ( or dogs that slick treed alot) I would pull my pup out and just make him listen to the hunt.( and then just hunt them later after the NH.
As I new most of the dogs back then and handled quite a few for others I new when the better tree dogs were in a cast.

Molly has never really hunted with a true full out Squirrel dog. The old man down the road had a old Bitch that hunted and treed well but she was slow and would only hunt one cast and tire out. She died just as Molly started to figure out what this squirrel thing was about. and I only got to work her with her once.

He also has Two rag tag dogs that hunt but I will not run Molly with them any more, as they have some habbits that are not so inticeing to me and that I dont want Molly to learn. Plus she out works them already.

Should you work a young squirrel dog to finish with an older finished dog. ?
If not why?
If not what would you or do you do ? do dood dodiodo....

I guess I'm not one to give an answer but I will anyhow.
I have a few large inclosiers that I keep my dogs in. I live in the forrest, so my pens are full of trees. In each pen I have a squirrel feeder or two which I do not use year around. My pups are all ways kept together. I will put an adult dog who is gental to pups in with them. This dog will be a babysetter of sorts. The pups learn how to behave around older dogs. I will also fill up the squirrel feeder. The older dog will show (I didn't say teach) the pups how to tree a squirrel. The pups learn what a squirrel looks like, Smells like, sounds like and catches on real quick.
As they get older they are taking with out an older dog on many many walks in my training pen. I just let them be a puppy. No petting on them though. This is the begenning of their training. They can play in the water, taste everything they want and just get to know nature. When they do see or smell a squirrel they already know what it is and will want to investigate it.
All of my dogs start to hunt at their one time. Some early, some real early some later. I will hunt my young dogs with a good hunting adult. I also seldom hunt just one dog at a time. I have too many Feist to be takeing them out one at a time. As you can see I hunt with a small pack. I feel that a young dog will learn quicker when hunted with a dog who knowes what it is doing.
I have never Comp Hunted. So my methods are a lot different than others. I enjoy pleasure hunting with my Feist and as long as they behave themselves and hunt well, I am pleased.

VADAN,

I seen where in the other post of mine , you answerd a point. that you used the feeder. I like that Idia alot , Just to get Molly to see the game and stay treed this time of year and will get to making one soon.
As for training young pups the pen you have must be a plus.
If I had more dogs I could justify doing it and probably would do it myself.

I hunt by myself and like you I worked young pups in the same way as to learning the ropes of the wild.
When your dogs are at the stage of going from pup to adault do you do anything different as to hunting them by them selfs. say at the age of two.

I always subscribed to seperation of puppys at day 54 in life and worked them seperatly as to impose or imprint a dominant behavior or alpha in each and everyone.
By seperating at that time each has a chance to become dominate. If left together all but one will become submisive. They were able to associate with each other only when there was a dominate dog to superced the others such as an adult dog. Thats when the pen like yours would be perfect in my opinion.

To add to the conversation. I do not plan to comp hunt Molly at all . This just was a added bonas that i had back in the day that added to my methods of training.
Molly is a pure pleasure dog hunter. But it seems likly that hunting in the manner of dogs competeing with each other may instill the drive to get the job done and invoke some dominate traits to achive a fuller more rounded hunter ?

I feel that every dog must be able to hunt by its self. If it won't then there is a propblm. What I consider a true hunting dog is one who will hunt in most all conditions. I want my dogs to hunt in most weather conditions just is long as it isnt severe. I like to hunt them in small groups. They can feed off of each others strong points. They should hunt alone just as well as with others.

I may not have said so but yes I do work my pups alone. There is a thin line from being able to hunt alone and being a copycat. I have seen some pups tree hard with other dogs. yet they had no idea what they were doing. Now is the time to get them away from other dogs and work one on one with them.

Have you ever used a squirrel tube? I have one and think it is great. When my pups are three to four mounts old I will catch a squirrel and put it in the tube.
They will go nuts with the squirrel. As soon as they start to tire some I will let the squirrel go. They will chase the squirrel to a tree and watch it climb up and away. Some of them will actually tree it for a few minutes and then back off. They start to realise that the squirrel is no longer in sight. Some will run around looking for it while others will keep going back to the tree trying hard to find where it went.

This is a training aid and should never be over used. You dont want your dog to think the only squirrel in the world is in a tube. But it does excite a young dog and makes them more aware of what a squirrel is. Sort of like a coon in a roll cage.

VADAN,

Yes, Ive seen pics of them and some that run right through the tree tops. I think if used properly as you suggest. It would do good things for a young dog. by which I mean from age two and younger.
For Older dogs it would be questionable in my opinion.

So the time frame has been set to when you pull a young dog off and run it on its own. as you suggest (when you realize they have no idea what there doing when they are alone.) At what age or how long or even better. What is it in manner of the dogs actions, That prompts your decission to return it to hunting with other dogs. And do you hunt it with only mature dogs after that or does it go right back to your pack.

Do you ever see what you achevied by working the dog alone just become a wash if it just goes back to the pack mentality ?

Or does singleing the dog out and gaining its confidance on its own become a lasting thing ?

I know I am not staying on the first subject but its still interesting anyway.

I don't really have any tips or much to add but keep these coming cause I am studying and learning

Once a dog accepts the "pack" mentality or takes on a "me too" status, it gets hard to break. Think about it like this. If you and your buddy go fishing every weekend and you're fishing with dynamite, the results look good in a hurry. However, if the supply of dynamite runs out after 2 years, you have to start learning to fish. You find out real fast that it's easier to go to the grocery store to buy your fish instead of catching them. They'll alway's take the easy route if it's given to them. It's ok to run them with an older dog for a few times but once they start treeing on their own, get them away and make them finish on their own. After that, hunt them as you please but you're probably going to find that hunting them alone is the best in the end. JMHO and YMMV.

At this time the dogs that I am keeping concist of 5 adults, 4 young dogs and 7 puppy's. There is no way that I can give each one the indivisual time it would take to make a super hunter out of them. As a result they are started out in small groupes. At this time my main concern is to let the pups learn the ways of the woods. They also learn not to fight or push their weight around. I won't allow it. As they mature they are hunted alone and with other dogs. Why with other dogs? Because I want to.
I by no means want my dogs to act like a pack of wolves or Yotes. They are dogs. Social animals who gets along well with others. I feel that an over powering dog will ruin a good thing. Concider rabbit hunting. You can hunt with one dog or five. Who cares. It's up to the hunter. You can coon with one dog or more. How many dogs are used for Deer hunting? One or twenty?
I can see no point in hunting squirrels with one dog only. Unless you are a loner and prefer your private time in the woods. That is great. Or maybe your dog doesn't get along with others. That could be. Or maybe you feel that no dog is good enough to hunt with your dog. Some people do beleive that. The bottom line is who cares? Some dogs are a lot like people. Some enjoy the company of others while others would rather be alone. There should not be a set of rules that dictate how many dogs should be hunted together. What ever is your preferance is great.

Never have seen a comparison made quiet like that but if it gets ya to the point I guess it works. I knid feel like I now know how ya got all them trout up in the spring though.

I can agree with that Daniel and for most it is a preference thing. I like to watch a dog work it out on its own and I've had beagles in the past that were good and some became the "me too" dogs that couldn't have run a rabbit on its own to save its life. I really think that's why I prefer to run them by themself until they get the game figured out. Once they hunt by themself, you can pretty much do whatever you want with them.

Deer hunting with dogs? I thought that was folklore. LOL

Would like to try it once. Although I've heard they get so much adrenaline running through their system that they aren't worth eating. Still be neat to try once.

It always helps to have the experiance of others to guide one through any rough spots they incounter. I look to when my son was a young boy and even now that hes an adult, even though he has proformed way past my expectations and is suucceding on his own. He still occasionaly needs advice or help. Heck I even ask him for his somtimes.
When guiding dogs thru the rigors of growing into prime hunters. I myself have always hunted and used more than one dog to help me.

Molly is the first tree dog I have ever had to train and guide thru without the help of another. As it is, all I can teach her is what I know. The rest is all her at this time.
I have rUn across those kind like VADAN had mentioned, that think there dog was to good or will be fowled up by a dog that in all actuallity was suppirior to the dog in question.
I once had a black and tan Called Black Jack that I co owned with my long time hunting buddy.

Black Jack was a pure money dog and could flat out put the meat or fur on table. He was silent on track and struck one time and the next time he barked he was treed. He was a Grade dog with no papers that came out of some crosses made by the Delongs in cass city Mich. He was the best dog you could find when the sport was for the fur and the pelts were high Price.

He was not for the guy who liked to hear the race and listen to them work.
We tried to hunt him in some night hunts a few time , entered as a grade dog and the fellas with the gr nght ch and all the titles refused to hunt with him. And just cryed the blues every time Black Jack was brought around.

Anyway my piont being is we ran him with our dogs . But also ran him alone and the others with out him. None of the other dogs ever ran silent, it just was not in the DNA to do so.
But even though this was not a trait to instill or teach a young dog that was expected to blow the leaves off every tree it passed . It did help a few pups to learn to check up when the sent was some what cold and not give themselve away to soon by striking and going into a full bowel mouth all the way to the tree a mile and a half away. That ablility learned, tended to help keep a closer tree in the end.

In reality there is a dog for everyone and each are satisfide with what they like about it. Im sure there is no absolutes when it comes down to it .

Being that all a dog learns is thru modifide behavior the question still stand and is the prefrance of the owners, towards an objective as to when and how this or any other behavior is modifide.
As a first time squirrel dog trainer and owner of a dog that will tree a squirrel and is just starting to figure it out but not quite to my liking. I will just out right say Thank you for the input.
I guess the question that started this should of been more direct and should of stated the point as, How do you know when a dog is all it can be as a hunter. Should you run with another dog to compare its ability and hope that in some way your dog may learn from the other dog.

Without something to compair it to. I can only weigh the experiance to what I know off coon hunting and I am almost sure that a squirrel is not as smart as a coon, not to say that it is any easyer to tree, it may Or maynot be. and I dont believe the size of the bag you take from hunting a dog cannot be all there is to make the measure.

So come on fellas lets here from the rest off you. How do you finish a squirrel dog out and how do you Know when you've done all you can. cause I need more advice before I square this up for myself.

Cantmisum, i like to let dogs start on their own and it dont matter what kind of dog it is and if it starts on its own you will know what you have but if you let a dog start with a older dog or one thats started most of the time that dog holds them back and they will be no better than it because they will be following its lead step for step because a young dog will take in everything they see a older dog do, you can take a dog thats having trouble starting with a older dog some and it will help them figure things out but after they get some age on them if they never figured it out on their own they want with a older dog either most of the time, if any dog is going to start the best thing you can do is put it one on one in the game you want it to hunt and if its got it you will see it come out dont make no difference how old it is if it has it you will see it, i dont show any of my dogs or pups any caged critters they get to dependent on it but you can turn loose a critter and then turn dogs loose on it and you dont get the back lash you do with a caged critter, all i can say is woods time,woods time,woods time, thats the best thing for any dog ... Dimpsy ...

Wvhick deer hunted with dogs is a toss up for me its nothing like still hunting and you never want to still hunt anywhere they are running them with dogs and if you was hunting a place the deer never moved good or you knowed where a big buck was hidding it would work out but im more of a still hunter give me a good straight tree with a good stand in it and some good quite woods and thats deer hunting to me ... Dimpsy ...

You may never know when a dog has reached its prime until it's too late. That might be the time you take the dog out and realize it's going on the down hill slide. Some dogs keep getting better with age. Mine sure has and he's 5-6 y/o (have to check the papers to be sure) but gets better everytime I take him out. To say that a dog is "finished" is giving it a label that is interpretive by every handler. You gave it a definition in your first post with the parameters that you've outlined. She may meet those needs, and she might also exceed them (every owners dream). As far as a dog being "finished" it's hard to say for sure.

As for coons being smarter than squirrels, I'll agree with that. THe big thing that halps the squirrels is agility. They can easily jump from tree to tree while the coons have some issues. They tend to hit a tree and stick more often where as squirrels are much more likely to timber. IMHO, it makes squirrels harder to keep up with and find.