On The Origin Of Gods

In the Avbaroy cosmology thread, there was a debate about the origin of gods: were they created by the Overdeity, or did they come from mortal souls who ascended into godhood ?

The first option has several problems: why do gods seem so human ? You could say that it was because they created humans by theistic evolution, but that doesn't answer the question as to why humans are so similar to animals in behaviour, which are unrelated to these gods. Also, if they were created by the overdeity to watch over the universe, it begs the question of what they did without mortal souls for nearly 14 billion years and why did they choose to create them at such a late date.

The second option, in my opinion, is more appropriate; it answers to why gods are so humans and it fits better with the rest of the universe, making Avbaroy and them more self-contained (if you know what I mean).

Please explain your votes.

EDIT: This is a poll about the first gods, not how gods in general come to be.

I think a mixture of the two is best.

The first gods were made by the overdeities (Because where else would they come from? Even cavemen had gods after all and it seems unlikely that they'd be able to co-ordinate enough for mortal ascension), and then later on regular mortals also attained godhood.

False gods do exist, you know.

Are the first gods still around, and do they interfere with mortals ?

EDIT: Who voted for the first option (other than Lying) ? Please tell me your reasoning.

Well, the first gods, I'd say they didn't create the universe. I'd say they are kind of like some stars, and may have come into being "recently." (Maybe only a billion, or couple hundred million years ago.) These supernatural beings had the ability to shape worlds and such, and crafted beings kind of in the image that they perceived themselves as. As far as I'm concerned, they still exist, but don't really care about the universe, and kind of just go with the flow, giving reign to other beings who have ascended godhood.

That is what I think anyway.

I think the overdeity idea is abit odd, I mean doesn't that just leave us with another thing to explain where it come from? (gods created by the overdeity but where id the overdeity come from?)

The overdeities are outside the multiverses, so it's probable they defy normal physical convention as we understand it. Meaning they don't need to obey laws of entropy, can have simply always been around, or have absolute causal knowledge.

If you want to look at it really simplistically, overdeities shift the blame from something we need to apply physical laws to (The deities live in the multiverse, so there are certain laws to follow) to something that is, by it's very nature, beyond them.

Okay got it (a secret time loop would be funnier but it's still not too bad) then I'll vote for them since the gods had hand in human and the likes creation (the wiki says so) and they can't have done that without existing prior to humans and the like

Other: The Gods were created by stray Incarnum, which hit the Big Bang at the precise moment it happened and was changed into the deities. When the mortals were created, the mortals mixed with the gods in some way, making the gods act more human and have human characteristics (or landfish, or drow, or llama).
The mortals were created by a patch of corrupted Incarnum found on the Material Plane. The gods found it, and used it to create the first mortals. This is why all animals are similar. The other kingdoms (plant, fungi, etc.)were created by accident, tiny patches of stray Incarnum of an extremely watered-down condition creating them all on its own.

Other: The Gods were created by stray Incarnum, which hit the Big Bang at the precise moment it happened and was changed into the deities. When the mortals were created, the mortals mixed with the gods in some way, making the gods act more human and have human characteristics (or landfish, or drow, or llama).
The mortals were created by a patch of corrupted Incarnum found on the Material Plane. The gods found it, and used it to create the first mortals. This is why all animals are similar. The other kingdoms (plant, fungi, etc.)were created by accident, tiny patches of stray Incarnum of an extremely watered-down condition creating them all on its own.

That's awfully anthropocentric. Some plants are way more complex and developed than any animals; they could not have happened by accident, which is why we have evolution. Also, only animals with brains have souls.

I say, if we can agree, we should implement Szilard idea: the Overdeity created ancient gods, which regulate the universe and upload its laws. They do not concern themselves with sapient hominids or any life for that matter; they leave it to ascended mortals (the ancient gods have bigger fish to fry; the universe is a lot larger than Avbaroy).

Who is opposed to that ?

That seems rational to me.

Well, as rational as anything in Avbaroy gets at least. I maintain there are going to be some old gods that might amuse themselves via mortals, assuming their original goals or tasks are well-cared for at a given time. (The god of matter distribution following the Big Bang must be kind bored these days...)

I like the first idea, mainly because it fits with Nameless' story better. :D

Cool, my idea kind of got used, even though the origin of gods may never come into any of the comics. Wait, Mad Mask is making a backstory comic right? I guess that is what this is for.

That's why we should always compromise. :)

I like it. Except for the part about animals and brains. Pretty much every largish (bigger than dime) animal has a brain don't they? :huh:

I like it. Except for the part about animals and brains. Pretty much every largish (bigger than dime) animal has a brain don't they? :huh:

Yeah, in my idea the gods created jellyfish and stuff out of extremely small amounts of Incarnum, really just enough to give it instinct (pull in food, eat). Those plants which are more advanced than others are ones which got more Incarnum. Pretty much, the more sentience, the more Incarnum would be a basic guide to my idea.
Also, I think MM meant 'minds', not 'brains', as there are creatures without brains (a.k.a. sentient plants)that still have sentience.

Ok then.... What's a mind look like? As in, what differentiates that part of the creature/plant from the rest?

If it has sentience, it generally has Incarnum. I don't really understand what you're saying, though.

The sentient plants are actually magical creatures, created by the God of Nature or some mad magician.

Here's a timeline that will hopefully satisfy everyone:

13 bya: Big Bang; Ancient Gods appear
4.5 bya: Avbaroy forms
3.5 bya: Life appears
2 mya: Sapient hominids evolve from other hominids
1 mya: An Ancient God fiddles with sapient hominids, augmenting their souls and permitting them to go to the Afterlife; the first recognisable gods appear
150,000 BC: Homo Sapiens evolves from earlier species; the Afterlife begins to take its modern form
12,000 BC: Flying Landfish civilisation pushed to the brink of destruction; sapient hominids take over Avbaroy
4,000 BC: Obyriths exterminated by Upper Plane dwellers
3,700 BC: The Nine Hells are founded to combat the Tanar'ri

Please tell me your objections.

Obyriths were exterminated by the Tanar'ri, though a select few still survive.

Objection! Obyriths are awesome. I think that we should try something more original instead of cribbing their backstory off the D&D books. How about something that involved those young spirit demons, too? And preferably, the ferrymen of the Styx known as Yugoloths.
I don't think the Obyriths should be exterminated at all, even only mostly. Perhaps relocated? Maybe it's an ongoing war?

Here's my idea about the obyriths:

In the ancient days of past, the Abyss was dominated by the obyriths, bizarre demons formed out of the pure hate of mortals. They ruled the Abyss long before it became the repository for the godless and evil*, but they lacked the will to explore out of the plane, so they preferred to built their own dystopia in isolation. Shortly after their genesis, the mortal souls arrived and the obyriths put them through many twisted experiments, creating mockeries of their former selves. Many slave-races were born, as the obyriths were not especially common creatures and the Abyss was larger than any plane.

Centuries later, the celestials discovered the existence of the Abyss. Horrified by the depravity of the place, they sought to exterminate the obyriths. Enormous armies of angelic knights swarmed into the Abyss, conquering the surface and exterminating most of the obyriths and their slave-races. But the most powerful of obyrith servants, the tanar'ri, managed to flee to deeper layers and hold them for decades, while the celestials were occupied with completely exterminating the obyriths.

Eventually, some tanar'ri managed to bend the layers of the Abyss to their control, gaining almost god-like powers is the process. Although they warred against each other, their combined might was enough to expel most of the celestials from the Abyss and establish the Tanar'ri as the rulers of the plane. Worse still, these demons had interest into other planes, wanting all creation for their own.

However, deep into the Abyss, remnants of old obyrith civilisation still exist, scheming to return it to its true masters.

I, personally, think it is more interesting, with bad decisions on part of the celestial commanders (exterminating the obyriths only led to greater threat to the Afterlife) and bridging the gap between tanar'ri and obyriths.

As long as we keep Dagon. He would have laid low. As in under the terrible waters of the Abyss. Or perhaps he fled to teh Plane of Water. But Dagon stays.

As long as we keep Dagon. He would have laid low. As in under the terrible waters of the Abyss. Or perhaps he fled to teh Plane of Water. But Dagon stays.

Don't worry, I like Dagon. ;)

As long as we keep Dagon. He would have laid low. As in under the terrible waters of the Abyss. Or perhaps he fled to teh Plane of Water. But Dagon stays.

Don't worry, I like Dagon. ;)

Ever since I read that DRAGON magazine article, he has been awesome.
However, the Loumara still need a backstory. They're a younger species of demon.

Experimentation perhaps? Possibly demonic mutation?

I personally always read it as Ioumara, because I think it sounds better, but I know it's Loumara :P

Nah, that's Tanar'ri, forged from the sins of mortals. Loumara are a race of possessing demons, so maybe they are related to ghosts or something?

Nah, that's Tanar'ri, forged from the sins of mortals. Loumara are a race of possessing demons, so maybe they are related to ghosts or something?

Aren't Tanar'ri sapient hominid petitioners of the Abyss ?

Nah, that's Tanar'ri, forged from the sins of mortals. Loumara are a race of possessing demons, so maybe they are related to ghosts or something?

Aren't Tanar'ri sapient hominid petitioners of the Abyss ?

No, they were created by the Obyriths. They then turned on their own creators, in the original version, and cast them from their place as lords of the abyss.
Note that the squishy demons aren't Tanar'ri.
Also, I think it would be cooler if the devils are the ones who defeated the Obyriths, but then wwere surprised by the servants of the Obyriths, the Tanar'ri, who forced them out. However, they decided not to reinstate their old masters.