South of Heaven, tag. Henry Howard

[Thomas Howard]

The Palace had ears. It had greasy, nosey, pain in the arse ears. Norfolk was in no mood to be in the Palace and talk to his son and risk being overheard by some idiotic servant or some foolish and evil noble or some floozy of a Court Lady. No way! That was why, the paranoid Norfolk, sent for his son to meet him outside the Palace, in a place filled with smelly and dirty commoners and where men looked like men and the women looked like men too! Not the ideal place for a man like Norfolk, but it would have to do. Besides, the ale was actually good in this place and the waiter -- Amalia some name or another -- was not half-bad looking. Not that Norfolk cared about that... his philandering days were long gone. Sad.

He chose the most hidden, dark corner he could find in this abominable place and ordered some ale. He savored the liquid and was pleased that it did not taste like donkey's piss. Small wonder. He meditated on his life so far. Every single plan he had has been derailed or failed miserably. Bad enough was that his children were behaving not as they should. Mary was chippy with him, Henry was always scolding him or brooding.

But worst of all, only that floozy Kathryn showed a semblance of respecting him... well... at least he liked to think she did. It was hard to read that woman's mind, maybe because she had no mind to begin with! But of all of the Howard, she was the closest to the King at that moment and Norfolk needed to think how best to use that for the benefit of the family. Although with Kathryn, she was bound to be more trouble than it was worth it.

But he needed to talk to his son. Norfolk could not do everything by himself. Henry needed to chip in and step up. First thing he was going to tell his son was to bring that damn wife of his to court. It did not look good that his son was alone in the Palace without his loving... well... loving might be a strong word... whatever... his wife. Second, he needed to ask Henry to put his sister in place. Something was not right with Mary and Norfolk was worried.

He finished his first cup and asked for another as he waited for Henry to show up and have a good father-son talk.

[[OOC: Sorry is short, but its the intro post. It will get better ]]

[Henry Howard]

Henry looked up at the sign for the tavern. This was an odd place for his father to ask to meet him. He thought this place would have been below his father's station. Henry had visited this place often enough. He usually came here for a few drinks with the lab or to talk to some of the pretty ladies that often came in here. Being married didn't stop him from flirting with other ladies. Especially since his wife wasn't in town. There was really nothing really stopping him. It wasn't uncommon for men to have mistresses, especially men of noble statue. Henry didn't really have mistresses. There was the occassional whore, but that was only to satisfy his physical needs while his wife was not here.

The place looked empty when Henry stepped in. He quickly searched the place for his father and found him sitting in a dark corner. Henry had to step over a drunken man, who had just fallen out of his seat, as he made his way towards his father. "Father," he greeted the duke before taking a seat. "I never thought I would ever catch you in here. This isn't really a place suited for you." The Howards were a proud family. Henry was no exception. But, he was able to take it down a few humble notches to attend a place like this. Henry ordered a cup of ale when someone came by to take his order.

"So, what is it that you needed to urgently see me for," he asked as soon as the place around them cleared up. Henry could only assumed his father didn't want to be overheard at the palace, which was why he picked this place. However, he wasn't sure how safe this place was, either. Just because these people were commoners, they weren't completely stupid. They had ears, too.

((occ: it's all good. I know our posts will get longer as we progress ))

[Thomas Howard]

"Father, I never thought I would ever catch you in here. This isn't really a place suited for you."

Henry was right. Normally you would not find Norfolk dead in a place like this. But necessity was the mother of invention… or in this case, subterfuge. Many would call Norfolk paranoid; that his old age was making him seeing shadows were there was none, but Norfolk knew better. The Palace was not a place to conduct secret business. There was no such thing as secrets in there. Everyone was out to look for number one and that meant people would look for things to advance their own agendas. Norfolk despised such people -- even though he himself was one, but he would never admit that! -- so the best way to avoid some noble harlot or imbecile listening to them was to just go away from the Palace and in a place that was a bit more… well… this.

He took a long swig of his ale and smiled at his boy. Henry. Please sit down. We have much to discuss. he said and scanned the place. Commoners were such filth. It disgusted the arrogant Norfolk something awful. Although he was known in his youth to frequent places like this. Always accompanied by a strumpet or two, of course. When he was young, he was not so puritan… oh no. He liked floozies as much as the next man.

"So, what is it that you needed to urgently see me for,"

Norfolk narrowed his eyes and lowered his voice a notch. I want to listen to your views about what is going on in the Realm. This abomination of a marriage between the Pearl of the Kingdom and that… that… that thing called Cromwell. Oh Norfolk could not stand that commoner that by kissing arses and scheming have managed to keep his head attached to his neck. Curse him and all his descendants! Also, I wanted to ask you about your sister. Has she spoken to you? What is going on with her? She refused several candidates I had for her to remarry. He added. Norfolk even tried to get his daughter Mary to marry Thomas Seymour. A piece of manure, sure, but sadly the Seymours were the golden boys for the King at this moment. It would not be a bad idea to get his Mary inside that odious family.

Norfolk stopped when a bar wench passed by them carrying some cups. He waited for the filthy thing to move away from them. We need to make a move, as a family. Ever since that whore Anne Boleyn, we have been steadily losing prestige in the eyes of the King. We used to be favorites and now we are becoming just an after thought. NO MORE! He shouted and then realized he did and lower his voice. Is time you do your part, my boy.

[Henry Howard]

Much to discuss? Henry raised his eyebrows in shocked as he took a seat across from his father. What did they have to talk about? Usually it was the same dribble: his children, his writing, their lack of social and political prominence. However, his father always found it perfectly fine talking to him about these things over dinner. "Sounds serious," Henry said lightly. What did his father have to talk to him about that required them to go to a seedy tavern. "Should I take notes? I didn't bring a quill or parchment..." It didn't take too long before someone bought him a pint of ale. Henry took a long swig and then placed the cup down.

Mary's marriage to Cromwell? Was that what they were here to talk about? "Don't get me started on that, father," he said, putting his hand up to stop him. Henry had a lot of thoughts and opinion on the marriage, but has kept his peace. Who was he to object such an arrangement. Especially one that was done by the King. Henry had his chance with the Princess. It was too late for him now, anyway. He was married and just had his fourth child. However, that didn't stop him from at least feeling jealous of that lowly commoner. "I'm actually surprised Mary has agreed to the match. She's usually so strong-willed. I didn't think the King would be able to bully her to agree to it. Cromwell is so...old." That was actually the last reason why he was against the marriage. "I guess I don't have to ask you how you feel about the arrangement." Henry took another sip of his ale. He knew his father hated Cromwell. So, marriage to the Princess would definitely bring Cromwell some prestige that his father would detest.

The issue of his sister remarrying was actually getting tiresome. It wasn't really his place to tell his sister whom she must marry, but apparently his father thought that Henry needed to help out. Apparently, Henry had a better influence over his sister. "I haven't talked to Mary since the dinner," he said simply as he took another drink. "Do you think that perhaps she is still mourning over the death of her husband?" Henry was still quietly mourning the death of his best friend. They grew up together and he was one of Henry's best friend. He doubted his sister and Richmond were that close, but it must be sad to have one spouse pass before a proper family could be establish. Henry had grown fond of his wife and would actually be sad if something happened to her. "Or perhaps the candidates you put forward didn't suit her taste. This is his second marriage, father. She probably thinks she has the right to make a decision for herself this time around. The first marriage, though amiable, was not really her choice, was it?" All of their marriages had been arranged by their father. All matches had to be the most advantageous.

Henry finished his ale and looked up behind him to see a bar wrench his father was waiting to leave. He paid no attention and looked back at his father. "And what move is that," Henry asked skeptically. His father shouted, which caught the attention of some of the patrons in the tavern. "Shhh," he warned his father, looking annoyed. Of course his father decided to be loud the moment he actually said something that could be scewed as tretcherous. "MY part," he asked incredulously this time. "And, what part must I play, father? I do not want to get mixed up with something that would make me lose my head. I rather like it on my neck, thank you very much." Henry couldn't think of what his father would want him to do. His father was right. There was much to discuss, but which part did his father expect Henry to react to? The Princess Mary's marriage? His sister's marriage? A political move?

Then, again, Henry saw this as an opportunity to finally do something. He had sat around for way too long, waiting for something to do. England wasn't going to go to war anytime soon, and he wasn't going to wait for one. Politics wasn't really something he enjoyed too much, but as the son of a duke, he really didn't have much choice of careers. "What do you expect me to do, anyway," he asked. "It's not like I have that much influence anywhere. People still listen to you. You're the duke of Norfolk. And, who am I? Just his son." Henry couldn't hide his bitterness in his tone. But, too many people have commented on his position. He had worked hard on his writing, but no one seem to take notice of that. Not even his father.

[Thomas Howard]

"Sounds serious, Should I take notes? I didn't bring a quill or parchment..."

Norfolk stared at Henry and made a face. No need to be facetious, Henry! Just listen. He took a swig of his drink and started. Lets go one by one. This marriage is a done deal. We cannot stop it. But what we can do is to sabotage it bit by bit. Nothing too obvious nor too much, because we need to keep our involvement hidden. But enough things here and there to see if it could hit the rocks. Norfolk was feeling clever and that was never a good thing. And we do have a way to get the King’s ear concerning this. Your cousin… and damn her floozy ways!

Kathryn… Norfolk was not sure if he should use the dumber than sack of tomatoes Kathryn for something as delicate as these plans. But then again, they had no one else that could get the King in private and feed him disinformation. The only other people who could get that close were Suffolk -- no chance in hell Norfolk was including him -- Aleydis Neville -- she was worst than Kathryn and not to be trusted -- or Cromwell himself and that kind of defeated the purpose of the whole plan! No. It had to be Kathryn. Not the optimal thing, but beggars could not be choosers.

"What do you expect me to do, anyway, It's not like I have that much influence anywhere. People still listen to you. You're the duke of Norfolk. And, who am I? Just his son."

Norfolk grunted. Pish! You are an Earl and a Howard. Your title and name alone gives you influence. And one day you will become Duke. It is about damn time you start working for the betterment of the Howards. Talk to that bitch Kathryn and tell her we need to have a family meeting. And please, for the love of God, tell her to keep that everlasting and foolish mouth close! Norfolk said. He looked at Henry. And I want ideas as to how to smear Cromwell’s name. Although I do not think that is too difficult.

[Henry Howard]

Henry wiped the small smirk of satisfaction off his face and listened intently to his father. There had to be something they could do to ruin any chances of Cromwell marrying Mary. There was no way this was what Mary wanted. He was about to speak up about the marriage, but then kept his mouth shut when his father mentioned sabotage. Henry wondered what his father had in mind. If his father was right, and there was no stopping this marriage, they could find a way to ruin the marriage to make the King regret his decision and have Mary and Cromwell separated. Cromwell would lose his title and mabye more. Henry took a moment to consider the facts over. They had to act really carefully. "You want to make the King see the marriage as a horrible arrangment," he asked, clearing what his father had intended. "But, why work on just the king? We should work on Cromwell and Mary as well! What's more subtle than seeing the couple fall apart. Perhaps we could have Cromwell ruined! Neither the King nor Mary would want to stay connected to the man if he brought a scandal to the court!" Henry liked this idea. If Henry couldn't stop the wedding, at least he could ruin it. But, this didn't mean he was going to try and ruin the wedding first.

Surrey blushed slightly and kept his head down as he sipped from his cup. It was embarrassing to be yelled at by his father at his age. He had children of his own. He didn't appreciate being treated like one of them. "All right," he hissed. "Will you keep it down!" Henry had ordered another cup of ale. "I'll start talking to some people. They might be able to help out. And, I'll talk to Kathryn, but it's not like she listens to me, either. She's young and foolish! She lacks tact and decorum."

His mind started to work through some ideas on how to smear Cromwell's name. There were a few easy plans. Maybe they should start off small and then build from there. "What if Cromwell was caught with a whore," he suggested, shrugging his shoulders. "Surely, the King would not allow his daughter to marry such a horrid man if the whole country knew about it. It would be embarrassing for himself and for Mary. And, the Princess is too pious to be married to such an arrogant man." Henry took a moment to look around the pub. There were plenty of women in here that they could pay off. Or they could just go to a brothel and hire a woman from there.

"Maybe we could show that Cromwell's stealing from the King," Henry said nonchalantly, looking away. That would probably be the best way. It would be treason to steal from the king. And, then, Henry realized that it could work. Henry jerked his head up and looked at his father that said he had a brilliant idea. "It could work, you know. You're Lord Treasurer. You could...fudge the numbers. Or actually make it missing." Of course, they couldn't just take out a lot of money at once. It had to be subtle as if Cromwell was trying to steal money from the King, but not enough to bring any notice to himself. They had to set Cromwell up.

[Thomas Howard]

"You want to make the King see the marriage as a horrible arrangement, but, why work on just the king? We should work on Cromwell and Mary as well!”

Howard drank and thought about what his son said. That was actually not a bad idea. He listened to the rest and nodded his head, thinking… thinking. Have Cromwell ruined was Thomas’ fondest wishes. Finally get rid of the damn commoner who have grown too big for his breaches. The question was… how? Cromwell, in Norfolk’s opinion, had the devil’s luck. The man survived a massive fall with the whole Anne of Cleaves fiasco. Not only did he survive it, but was rewarded with the hand of the Pearl of the Kingdom. That man was a Warlock, there was no other… wait! Could that be used? Him been a heretic?

He stared at his son. Why not do both? We can start attacking Cromwell’s character, subtle of course, while we can send that floozy cousin of yours to work the King from the inside. I just only hope she is up to the task. Norfolk was not sure she was. Kathryn had demonstrated an impressive ability to screw things up… figuratively and literately! For all they knew she was probably already sleeping with the King, which was an advantage but also could blow everything in their faces. Damn Kathryn.

But there was a question inside Norfolk that he was not going to ask his son about. Why was he so angry at the marriage? Of course, he was a Howard and it was all Howards duty to be angry that Cromwell was marrying Mary… but there was something else there. Did he fancy the Princess? That was problematic and Norfolk knew it. Another question for another day.

“And, I'll talk to Kathryn, but it's not like she listens to me, either. She's young and foolish! She lacks tact and decorum."

That was an understatement of biblical proportions. Kathryn lacked a lot of things, including a brain. But on the other hand, she managed -- even in her foolish way -- to get the King’s attention. Damn Neville! The Duke of Cumbria was the one who introduced her to the King, hence cutting any chances for Norfolk to actually be the one pushing her to the King’s company. Still, if played right… she could be of use. He only wished Henry would be the one handling her… she got in Norfolk’s nerve something awful.

“What if Cromwell was caught with a whore,"

That would not work. Cromwell was disgustingly celibate and everyone knew it. A whore might have worked with men like Charles or Neville, known womanizers. Not Cromwell and damn him. Making up a story of Cromwell stealing could work. The King did not trust him as much as he did before… maybe plant a story about Cromwell in league with William of Cleaves? Hmm. Then something came to mind. How about reformers? Perhaps he been mixed up with heretics that undermine the King and his religious policies? Could it be done…? He asked himself more than actually asking Henry. A combination of him stealing so he could help the Lutheran underground movement? That would make the King quite mad… but we cannot be seen as part of this, Henry. Hence why we need Kathryn and God have mercy on our souls for it! Norfolk was feeling young again. There was nothing like scheming against someone to make an old man feel revitalize!

But to count on Kathryn for anything was like counting on a tree to recite poetry. A foolish endeavor. What was scarier... they had to count on Kathryn. Norfolk was going to have many sleepless night!

[Henry Howard]

An attack on both sides? That could work! Henry nodded his head as he listened to his father. This was actually a brilliant plan. If it worked, then all the better. "I can start the attack on Cromwell's character, father," he said. "I'll get a few of the lowly courtiers to start a few rumors for me. That way, it can't be traced back to us. We can start the rumor from the ground and it would eventually travel up to the King." Rumors have a way of traveling fast in England. When the only way to gather news was by word of mouth, rumors spread like fire. It shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks before the rumors start reaching the higher rank courtier. Then, it would only be a matter of time before word reached the King's ears. "As for Katherine, I'll try my best to reason with the girl. Maybe if I promise to buy her a new dress and some ribbons, she might be cooperative." However, Henry knew better than to rely on her cousin. But, she was able to get the King's attention without any help from them. So, maybe she wasn't completely a lost cause.

Henry took a moment to ponder if the heretic angle would be the right one to take. "I don't know," Henry said slowly, coming out of his thoughts. "The King hasn't taken a strong enough stance against Lutherans, has he? I mean, he was considering making this country a Godless country at one point. Would it matter if Cromwell was a Lutheran or a heretic? We need something bigger than just a bunch of heretics undermining the King." Henry took a moment to think what else they could do. "It might work if we created a group of religious fanatics who plan on revolting against the King, possibly even contemplating harm against the King or anyone in the royal family."

It was no secret how much the King hated the idea of a revolution. If there was a whiff of it in the air, Henry would crush it with all of his resources. The King grew up with constant threat hanging over his father's head when they were trying to establish the Tudor dynasty. Henry wasn't about to let a rebellion tear down everything his father worked for.

"It doesn't have to be a real group," Henry explained to his father. "Just the idea should enough to make the King sweat. If the idea was the group was against any or all of Cromwell's reforms, then the King would blame him for the revolt. And, just like that," Henry snapped his fingers together. "Cromwell's credibility would go down. We could just pile everything against him until he crumbles under it." It was strange to plot against one of his enemies with ease. He almost felt like his father, which was something he never thought would happened. Henry grew up, listening and watching his father talk about his enemies, plotting against them, and figuring out plots to bring him favors from the King. And, now, here he was, doing the same thing with his father, as if he had been doing this his whole life.