Krogan Questions!

I'd like to flesh out exactly what we're dealing with, which is important to know for role playing purposes.
Gestation Period?:
Live Birth or Egg?:
Numbers?

My Assumptions (Live):
Gestation Period (Live Birth): 3 Months
Numbers: 3-8 Children


My Assumptions (Egg)
Gestation Period: 12-16 Weeks
Numbers: 100~

The Egg Birth would make since taking the larger reptiles of Earth and the references to "Clutches" in Mass Effect, but the still born reference does not make since unless the Genophage effects egg development.


Krogan's "Fast Maturity?"
What age can a Krogan begin fighting and reproducing, since they develop at extreme rates? I assumed on par with humans 13~ to breed and 15 mostly grown, but it could be quicker its all speculative, but still important to know.


Genophage: What does it affect?

Fertility?
Baby?
or Natal Development?

Not entirely sure, but I think that krogan are most likely egg layers. Okeer says "let a thousand die in a clutch" in reference to the genophage. It might simply be a figure of speech, but given the incredible krogan growth rate pre-genophage, I don't see it as implausible, so long as they are egg-layers.

There is a similar principle in nature, in fact. Reptiles lay countless eggs, as most of them will be eaten/destroyed before hatching. Krogan could operate on the same principle, which is why their population grew so quickly. After being uplifted, suddenly 100% of eggs were surviving, as opposed to 1 or 2%.


As for the Rite, I always assumed that krogan would undertake it when they are "young adults", which I would guess can happen any time between 15 and 20. In the Urdnot Camp, a warrior mentions a young one at the female's camp "a few years away from the Rite", so I suspect it almost certainly takes place in the first two decades of life.

I agree with the egg laying, but then there are references to "Stillborn" which wouldn't be the term if they were in eggs, lest the genophage effects egg developement and leaves stillborn krogan partially developed outside of an egg.

I'd always assumed krogan laid eggs because of the term "clutch," maybe sea turtle or alligator style. It's also the most probable way for you to get crowds of offspring, unless the gestation period for live births is unbelievably short.

But you're right - "stillborn" implies either live birth, or the genophage working after the fertilization phase, killing young krogan in the egg before they can hatch. Either way, it's more tragic than simple infertility.

Though to be honest, there are mixed signals on the genophage in general. There's that 1/1000 statistic given in the codex, which implies getting a viable baby krogan is a roll of the dice, but then you also get references to "fertile females." Does that mean 1/1000 is the average species-wide, taking into account the "barren" females along with the ones that actually have a decent shot at reproducing? Or does 1/1000 refer to the success rate on lady krogan that can successfully breed, versus 0% on the rest?


As for krogan maturity? I eventually removed the age reference from my krogan's Rite ceremony because I was unsure how to blend in my views on krogan development with other backstories I'd read around the site.

I'd figure that krogan would develop on about the timeline of humans, though likely faster. There's evidence that krogan mothers do care for the young, but they would have to develop quickly to survive the environment on Tuchanka. And even then, most didn't.

Then you get the incredible rate at which krogan (used to) reproduce. Animals on Earth tend to reproduce just often enough to raise the last batch of cubs/pups before giving birth to the next. This could suggest that young krogan mature quickly not only to survive, but to allow Mom to have several batches in her lifetime. It's probably a shorter timespan for live births (to account for the huge population boom once Tuchanka was no longer a problem) or longer for egg births (because a large clutch size would have the same effect).

Literally, "fecundity" means the ability to produce live offspring, and "fertility" means the actual production of live offspring.

So if the Genophage affects the babies it affects the "Fertility" of women, but not the Fecundity.

Also once impregnated it would require the 16 weeks to lay eggs, and then another eight to sixteen to hatch.

I imagine the genophage affects the ability of newborns to live outside the confines of an egg. This would make the 'stillborn' term as accurate as possible for an egg-laying species. That is, the krogan children hatch and almost immediately die, due to exposure.

This scenario would also account for the cultural trauma and bitterness the krogan feel in-canon towards the genophage, as opposed to a more 'benign' version where eggs simply aren't fertilized.

Agreed, either they die on hatching, or they develop with no shell, so they are partially developed when they should be coming out in an egg. One of those two is what I've always assumed.

Since it is a problem that affects the children, could it be solved with the future advanced equivalent of a NICU until development was completed?

I would say they are egg layers. Since mammals are the only ones that don't lay eggs and krogans are more reptilian than mammal. So it would be more accurate to say they are egg layers.

With the maturity thing. The Rite of Passage is a puberty thing. With humans being 10-12 when they reach puberty, it's probably not so far from krogans. So I believe it would be 15 at the earliest. Though it could be later like 20.

I had always thought the genophage affects the fertility of fully grown male and female krogan. Those effected by it are essentially sterile, where as those not effected can reproduce normally. This would lessen the population growth to "normal parameters" but also potentially create an inbreeding problem since fertile females are so rare.

The reason I believe it effects the adults rather than the eggs is because Mordin expressly states at one point that the genophage does not kill, it just limits reproductive ability. If the eggs were to fail soon after being laid, that would count as "killed", I believe. Unless we want to get into the whole debate of what actually counts as a life.

Mordin is diluted. We should all be in agreement there. It sounds harmless when he talks about it, but when talking to Krogan there are piles of baby bodies. It has to affect development at some level, which would still affect Krogan Fertility as per the definition above. If it didn't affect babies, stillbirth would not be an issue.

I can't recall where it mentions the piles of baby bodies. I remember Okeer and Wrex talking about the ones that didn't make it, but I had figured he was talking metaphorically.

Okeer also mentions many children who live when they shouldn't have. The ones that should have been weeded out by the harsh way of life the krogan keep, but instead they're nutured and kept safe because they can no longer afford to kill off their own weaklings.

I can't remember where it is, but one of them talks about the "one that lives while a thousand perish" as if that's the way it should be. If all the eggs were failing due to the genophage, I think that statement would be a little out of place.

*Edit*
Nope, it would seem I didn't remember the line right. Wrex does imply that the eggs die.
Vid of Wrex's rant

I assumed it's too severe a problem for the young to recover from. I do believe that Mordin says the genophage messes with neurological development, so fertilization does occur. That probably means mass miscarriages rather than fully-formed dead babies, but either way it's going to be really hard on the female. Miscarry on every attempt or continuously lay clutches of duds? Definitely sucks.

Even if it were possible, krogan would have to completely switch their focus. A warrior culture forced to nurse their hordes of ailing children to health. I doubt they'd go for it... but it would make for an interesting culture shift if they did.

NICU wouldn't work...gene therapy won't work...So yeah.

Weyrloc Clanspeaker's speech. The line is at about 2:31.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ56QznvD5E

I think we do always need to remember the very different cultures and outlooks on the issue of those who used it and those suffering it's effects. To the krogan these children hatching only to die likely to them is indeed traumatic. I agree their egg layers and likely the effects are indeed development as all cannon info suggests this.

As to krogan numbers bascially when they had a huge population already it took 10 or 12 years just to kill off one generation in the war likely. By the time they got through the first big batch of infantry another was soon to be trained making their numbers seem endless.

When Okeer said "Let a thousand die in a clutch", I'm almost certain he really meant "Let there be a thousand incidents of young dying in clutches", not that there are literally a thousand young from a single batch of eggs. That sort of number would be impossible from the average size of a female Krogan, even if the eggs were ludicrously small.

We know there isn't 1000, but 120-200 would be acceptable, since there are many examples of Sea Turtles that lay that number of eggs that aren't that small compared to body size.

Ohh, and most egg laying turtles lay 3-8 clutches per mating season. (So in the timeframe of three months a sea turtle will lay from 450 to 1200 eggs...

American Alligators Lay Fifty.

Since Sea Turtles (Like Krogan) evolved with a great deal of predators eating their young, I imagine those to be more similar.