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Posted: Oct 15 2006, 12:33 AM
Member No.: 1,248
Joined: 14-April 06
First of all, JoeR say here "The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a plane running down light poles when crossing the the highways, at least 19.
So, I tried to find all these witness. I used this and this witness collection.
First is of cource our frend England Taxi driver.
Lloyd, 69, began the morning of September 11, 2001 like most days, driving his taxi cab. A passenger in Rosslyn told him what had happened at the World Trade Center so he turned on his radio and headed home. As he approached the Navy Annex, he saw a plane flying dangerously low overhead. Simultaneously, the plane struck a light pole and the pole came crashing down onto the front of Lloyd’s taxi cab, destroying the windshield in front of his eyes...
Father Stephen McGraw: "…I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars… passed about 20 feet over my car… The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car…. My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression…
Rodney Washington, stuck in stand-still traffic a few hundred yards from the Pentagon:"It was extremely loud, as you can imagine, a plane that size, it was deafening," Washington said. The plane was flying low and rapidly descended, Washington said, knocking over light poles before hitting the ground on a helicopter pad just in front of the Pentagon and essentially bouncing into it. It "landed there and the momentum took it into the Pentagon," Washington said.
Sgt. William Lagasse in an email conversation with "my good friend" Dick Eastman:"Dear Sir rest assured it was a Boeing 757 that flew into the building that day, I was on duty as a pentagon police sgt. I was refueling my vehicle at the barraks k gas station that day adjacent to the aircrafts flight path. It was close enough that i could see the windows had the shades pulled down, it struck several light poles next to rt 27...
Wanda Ramey, stood at the Mall plaza booth and had an excellent view on the crash:"I saw the wing of the plane clip the light post, and it made the plane slant. Then the engine revved up and crashed into the west side of the building," she said. "It happened so fast. One second I saw the plane and next it was gone." Recalling those moments again, Ramey said it appeared the building sucked the plane up inside. "A few seconds later, I heard a loud boom and I saw a huge fireball and lots of smoke," she said."
Steve Riskusfrom the nearest highway. He saw this plane pass at a distance of about a 100 feet (Interview conducted by email by "Agent Fescado"):"I saw the plane hit the building. It did not hit the ground first... It did not hit the
roof first... It did dead center on the side... I was close enough that I could see the American Airlines logo on the tail as it headed towards the building... The plane looked like it was coming in about where you have the "MAX APPROACH" on that picture... I was at about where the "E" in "ANGLE OF CAMERA" is written when the plane hit... It was not completely level, but it was not going straight down, kind of like it was landing with no gear down... It knocked over a few light poles on it's way..."
Mark Bright, Defense Protective Service officers and one of the first on the scene:”I knew it was going to strike the building because it was very, very low -- at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down…. I heard the plane power-up just before it struck the Pentagon.”
Afework Hagos, a computer programmer in the traffic jam at Columbia Pike:”There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in… I saw American Airline insignia and when it made impact with the Pentagon initially I saw smoke, then flames”
Mary Ann Owens, on a highway between Arlington National Cemetery and the Pentagon:"The sound of the engines came so quickly I thought it was another helicopter landing. I looked left to see a large plane barely clear the I-395 overpass. Instantly I knew what was happening, and I involuntarily ducked as the plane passed perhaps 50 to 75 feet above the roof of my car at great speed. Street lights toppled as the plane barely cleared the Interstate 395 overpass. ...
Mike Walter, USA Today...it turned and came around in front of the vehicle and it clipped one of these light poles ... and slammed right into the "Pentagon right there." "Now there are some people who say that it skipped and went into the Pentagon and it may have gone that way, but that’s not what I saw. What I saw was the jet went very low into the Pentagon and it went straight."
D.S. Khavkin., from an 8 story building nearby:
”At first, we thought it was the jets that sometimes fly overhead. However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft...The engine was at full throttle. First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles, then headed directly for the Pentagon and crashed on the lawn near the west side the Pentagon.”
Unnamed Navy admiral, who was walking outside the Pentagon:
"It was a good size jet aircraft. I saw it clip a light pole but keep coming and then slam into the front of the building." (Houston Chronicle - Lexis-Nexis - Michael Hedges)
Now, this is 12 who I found... and I am not saying it can not be more... but I found 12.
Now someone maybe say: And what is that for ?? And the answear is.. I dont know!... it is just good to have it here
Then I will add this:
Bruce Elliott, form. commander of the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant, from the south parking lot: ”I looked to my left and saw the plane coming in…It was banking and garnering speed...It clipped a utility pole guide wire, which may have slowed it down a bit before it crashed into the building and burst into flames.”
Kat Gaines, route 110 approaching the parking lots: ”I saw a low-flying jetliner strike the top of nearby telephone poles.”
The worker, William Middleton Sr., was running his street sweeper through the cemetery when he heard a harsh whistling sound overhead. Middleton looked up and spotted a commercial jet whose pilot seemed to be fighting with his own craft. Middleton said the plane was no higher than the tops of telephone poles as it lurched toward the Pentagon. The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards before it tore into the building.
Two witness talk about telephone poles... and I remember I have seen in TV news from 9/11... then they talk about telephone poles.
But where are the telephone poles ? I dont know.
This post has been edited by behind on Oct 15 2006, 12:35 AM
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 02:21 AM
Member No.: 3,066
Joined: 23-June 06
Great post Behind!
This makes it very clear how there wasn't a huge amount of eyewitnesses to the light poles.
Lloyd is the most signifaicant witness since he is the only one to allegedly have actual physical contact and after our visit with him in person we have confirmed his account to be physically impossble.
see this thread.
We also interviewed Father McGraw in person as well and not only is his entire account questionable....but he ADMITTED to us in person that he did NOT see the light poles get hit by the plane but merely deduced that they were hit because he saw them on the ground.
see this thread.
This is VERY important because as you read through these other witness accounts that you listed......only 2, Wanda Ramey and the Unnamed Navy admiral actually claim that they literally SAW the poles being hit.
All of the others could be deducing it just like Father McGraw.
Naturally 2 is not a large number to have been planted.
Or perhaps they are simply embellishing their account to make it more important.
Bottom line.....there isn't a whole lot to counter the significant evidence that we have showing the light poles were staged.
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 02:40 AM
Member No.: 5,833
Joined: 22-September 06
How do you get 2 out of all those quotes . You don't have to have contact with the poles in order to see them being hit.
Why would whoever was in charge of a coverup here been inteested in making it look like the planes hit the poles. If the poles weren't hit why bother knocking them down. Why risk detection with an easily discoverable ploy like knocking the poles down or planting them.
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 03:00 AM
Member No.: 1,248
Joined: 14-April 06
Yes I am totally agree.
(But like I said before... it is possible that I have not notice some witness... it takes a little time to read through it all)
But some people are always asking: Why would they staged the light poles etc...
For me the answear is obvious.
Simply to back up the B757 story... then they could say: Look, here it travelled... clipped and nocked down the poles etc... its obvious... and so on.
(And it is interesting to see that two witness talk about telephone pole... do you know something about this telephone pole at the Pentagon)
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 03:08 AM
Soli Invicto Comiti
Member No.: 4,632
Joined: 3-September 06
Your observations make a lot of sense to me.
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 05:29 AM
Member No.: 3,066
Joined: 23-June 06
Because only 2 of them specifically say that they SAW the plane hit the light poles.
The rest merely mention that the light poles were hit.
I personally interviewed Father McGraw at his church and he specifically told us that he did NOT see the light poles hit but simply deduced that they were hit because he saw the pole lying in the road next to the taxi cab. Yet he is considered an "eyewitness" to the light poles being hit. Dylan and I both have this interview on video & audio.
That of course is highly indicative to the fact that many, or some, or all of the other witnesses that merely mention the light poles also simply deduced that they were hit and didn't actually witness the impact.
Then you must take into account that the 2 who CLAIM they saw the light poles being hit may be exaggerating/embellishing as is typical with eyewitnesses to make their account more important.
So in that case we only have to assume that possibly one or two of them are actual government plants.
In a global psychological operation of this magnitude it is quite safe to assume they would have one or two planted witnesses to support their story.
Why would they risk controlled demolition of 3 highrises in New York? Point is the entire operation was intricately staged and extemely risky.
The light poles are CRUCIAL evidence to the fact a 757 hit the pentagon.
We have SIGNIFICANT information that counters this claim that includes not only eyewitness testimony but the OFFICIAL fdr information as well!
The light poles are the beginning of the road path to ALL of the physical damage so they can make or break the case.
Do not underestimate the importance of the light poles.
This post has been edited by Lyte Trip on Oct 15 2006, 05:30 AM
Posted: Oct 15 2006, 07:08 AM
Member No.: 5,692
Joined: 19-September 06
more from ericbart's list when searching the words light and/or pole(s):
Elliott, Bruce: Former ammunition plant official evacuated building moments before suicide airliner collision. Col. Bruce Elliott, former commander of the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant who was reassigned to the Pentagon in July... He said: "It was like a kamikaze pilot. I felt it was going to ram the Pentagon," he said. He said the craft clipped a utility pole guide wire, which may have slowed it down a bit before it crashed into the building and burst into flames."
what "utility guide wire" is he referring to? there are NO such wires near any of the downed poles.
Evey, Walker Lee Lee Evey, the manager of the Pentagon's ongoing billion-dollar renovation (quoted from 4 seperate sources) says: "The plane approached the Pentagon about six feet off the ground, clipping a light pole, a car antenna, a construction trailer and an emergency generator..." Then he is quoted at length describing various physical infrastructure damages inside the Pentagon, as well as outside (at the generator and lawn) while repeatedly stating the "official" line about what happened. The last quote from Walker Lee: "Whether you describe it as an explosion or not, people I talk to who were there, some called it an explosion. Others called it a large fire. I'm not sure. I wasn't there, sir. It's just a guess on my part.
do i even need to dissect that one? Evey was not there and everything he says is second/third hand information.
Gaines, Kat is quoted in a now defunct link under the heading of VALOR on an FCCC (fairfax county chamber of commerce) as saying: "heading south on Route 110, approached the parking lots, saw a low-flying jetliner strike the top of nearby telephone poles. "
either she is lying, because there are no telephone poles hit (would have wires and risk entanglement), there are no telephone poles at all in the area in question (the 5 fallen light poles on the highway), OR she is actually talking about a different area. The poles she refers to never fell, so what are the chances they were ever struck? Maybe from her perspective it appeared to hit the tops of these poles, but it was simply passing by very close to them. Unfortunately, i cant find any telephone poles (checked various pics of the citgo/navy annex area, plus the highway, plus the parking lot) anywhere near the Pentagon, not even in the parking lot, so her testimony is flawed.
Hovis, Tom , who appears to have been a 60's era pilot, on an aviator/pilot related site (http://www.beanerbanner.com/a_father____.htm) says: "On this day of prayer I went to the Pentagon and prayed for those Americans that died at the hands of those evil monsters.
My office is 8 miles from the site. The recovery teams working 18 hour shifts are just now getting to the body of the aircraft that went right through the outer ring at full power according to eyewitnesses.. Being a former transport type (60's era) I cannot understand how that plane hit where it did giving the direction the aircraft was taking at the time.
As most know, the Pentagon lies at the bottom of two hills from the west with the east side being next to the river at 14th street bridge. One hill is at the Navy Annex and the other is Arlington Cemetery. The plane came up I-395 also known as Shirley Hwy. (most likely used as a reference point.) The plane had been seen making a lazy pattern in the no fly zone over the White House and US Cap. Why the plane did not hit incoming traffic coming down the river from the north to Reagan Nat'l. is beyond me. Strangely, no one at the Reagan Tower noticed the aircraft. Andrews AFB radar should have also picked up the aircraft I would think. Nevertheless, the aircraft went southwest near Springfield and then veered left over Arlington and then put the nose down coming over Ft Myer picking off trees and light poles near the helicopter pad next to building. It was as if he leveled out at the last minute and put it square into the building. The wings came off as if it went through an arch way leaving a hole in the side of the building it seems a little larger than the wide body of the aircraft. The entry point was so clean that the roof (shown in news photo) fell in on the wreckage. They are just now getting to the passengers today. The nose wheel I understand is in the grass near the second ring. Right now it is estimated that it will take two years to repair the damage. Ironically, the area had just been remodeled with most of the area was still blocked off and some offices were empty."
So here is a pilot wondering why this plane hasnt crashed in to the planes that are heading directly in the opposite direction towards National Airport. Ist a good question, so there at least we can give him credit. But the rest of what says is opinion. He was not a position to see the plane, he is simply regurgitating the official line on what happened. He knows the area, but also admits that his office is 8 miles from the site. His description of the plane "picking off trees and light poles" is strange, since it likens the event to a sniper shooting targets. Either way, he never saw anything, so he is simply stating hearsay. By the way, if the plane was over Springfield it would be turning right to come back to Arlington, not left, but that may just be a misunderstanding.
Milburn, Kirk says: "i was right underneath the plane, said Kirk Milburn, a construction supervisor for Atlantis Co., who was on the Arlington National Cemetery exit of Interstate 395 when he said he saw the plane heading for the Pentagon. "I heard a plane. I saw it. I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles," said Milburn. "It was like a WHOOOSH whoosh, then there was fire and smoke, then I heard a second explosion..."
He doesnt seem very confident of his own account. Regarding the poles he claims he was "guessing". Not very reliable. Plus planes dont go "whoosh whoosh", and he actually mentions 2 explosions.
Sucherman Joel : I heard a sonic boom and then the impact, the explosion. ... There were light poles down. There was what appeared to be the outside covering of the jet strewn about. ... Within about two minutes there were firetucks on the scene. Within a minute another plane started veering up and to the side. At that point it wasn't clear if that plane was trying to manouver out of the air space or if that plane was coming round for another hit.
Joel is another witness after the fact. Light poles were down, but he does not say how or if he saw them come down.
DeChiaro, Steve: "Instead of following the streams of people away from the Pentagon, Steve DeChiaro ran toward the smoke. As he reached the west side of the building he saw a light post bent in half. "But when I looked at the site, my brain could not resolve the fact that it was a plane because it only seemed like a small hole in the building," he said. "No tail. No wings. No nothing." He followed the emergency crews that had just arrived.
Steve saw a "light pole bent in half". He does not describe seeing it happen, so he is simply a witness after the fact. Curiously however, his description seems contradictory, or at least incomplete. It seems he is inferring that a standing light pole was bent in half. Perhaps he meant it was laying on the ground and bent in half. Even then, i have not seen any pictures of such "bent in half posts". They (the length of poles) are all broken in to at least two parts, none are intact while still being bent in half. It is possible that he saw a pole BEFORE it was moved, and thats how he saw it bent in half. That same pole may have broken into two pieces later (per the pics) after being moved. But that establishes that someone moved at least one pole, a pole that according to Steve was bent in half when he saw it, but that no one has seen in any of the pics.
Elgas, Penny: claims to have had a piece of the plane land in her car through an open sunroof. Turns out she saved and donated to a museum ( http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/...ecord.asp?ID=28 ), NOT the FBI or the NTSB or any official investigative body. Her account of events, especially after the impact, is what she herself characterizes as adrenaline fueled. But her description of the plane and its approach corroborates the citgo guys testimony: "Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there...In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me."
Admittedly, her descriptions are detailed but seem embellished for effect since they are so interlaced with the shock/trauma she suffered from the experience.
BUT her testimony does put the plane she saw over the CITGO, above the poles (80ft), and makes no mention of poles being knocked down. From her view, the NOSE of the plane was headed right at her, which would suggest the plane taking an intersecting angle to the highway, not the angled approach of the "pole path". I recommend you read her whole account: http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/...rting.asp?ID=30
Lagasse, William: "the son of an aviation instructor, was filling up his patrol car at a gas station near the Pentagon when he noticed a jet fly in low. He watched as the plane plowed into the Pentagon. Initially, he thought the plane was about to drop on top of him -- it was that close...", and also this:
"I saw the aircraft above my head about 80 feet above the ground, 400 miles an hour. The reason, I have some experience as a pilot and I looked at the plane. Didn't see any landing gear. Didn't see any flaps down. I realized it wasn't going to land. . . . It was close enough that I could see the windows and the blinds had been pulled down. . ."
Note: no mentions of crashing into poles, and again the CITGO route is described, NOT the "pole path". All the links on ericbart's list are dead for the Lagasse quotes, so i havent searched for any new sources regarding his testimony (yet).