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|Loose Change Forum > The Pentagon > Elite Pentagon Research Team's Findings In Detail|
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Aug 31 2006, 08:47 PM|
| (some info is repeated from other threads but this is a complete timeline of everything we experienced on the trip)
We arrived in Washington DC on Tuesday morning August 22nd. The Loose Change crew, Dylan Avery, Corey Rowe, & Jason Bermas had arrived the day prior as did Russell Pickering of pentagonresearch.com. They had a suite on the 14th floor of the Sheraton facing the Pentagon with an amazing view of all of the potential flight paths of the plane.
Loose Change Cats.
Russell got right to business on Tuesday morning and was already pounding the pavement doing interviews with people in the area as Merc and I were arriving. He had talked with the Japanese owner of an auto repair shop right next to the Sheraton who confirmed he heard the plane and had a brother that actually saw it. Russell also talked to some people at the VDOT (Virginia Department of Transportation) building across the street and at the Citgo gas station. This turned out to be very good because he established contacts making it easier for us to return and talk with people there later.
We took Dylan to the auto repair shop where the owner agreed to be interviewed for the film. He was quite friendly and happy to contribute. His name is Shinki Paik and he explained how he heard the loud sound of an approaching low flying plane and watched his brother Edward literally duck for cover from it as he saw the shadow pass over his brother. He was kind enough to give us the address of where his brother now works so we could also pursue an interview with him. This was a very good lead since Edward actually saw the plane. We wanted to go right over there but we already had an appointment with Captain Nuniville with the Arlington County Communications Center to be played the police and fire dispatch tapes from 9/11. We ended up interviewing Edward Paik the following day and he gave us a riveting account of witnessing the low flying plane. He said it was grey with black wings and he ducked because it was so low. He thought it clipped the large antenna tower by the VDOT but admitted that he just deduced this because he saw them working on it the next day. We confirmed with the VDOT employees that the antenna was not clipped.
Dylan and Russell conducting the interview.
After struggling to find the correct building for the Communications Center we finally made it there but a bit late. Captain Nuniville was accommodating and we were even able to ask her and her associate Jim Keaton quite a few questions before the dispatch tapes were played. Originally we had hoped to hear the actual 911 calls but we were informed that they were confiscated by the FBI and never returned. Go figure. This actually seemed to upset Captain Nuniville who wanted to have them available for the numerous requests that she gets from people to hear them. She was not the Captain at the time of 9/11 and explained how virtually all relevant leadership has changed since then.
So they played the dispatch tapes for us and we were allowed to record the first 10 minutes but had to shut off the recorder before listening to the rest. They played the fire dispatch first and there wasn't a whole lot of new information but there was one very significant and damaging piece of information that we obtained from the part that we werent allowed to record. Im not sure of the exact time it was but some time within the first 30 minutes of impact, a fireman repeated a direct request by the FBI to "minimize response units" in order to "maintain integrity" of the scene. In essence they were requesting that fewer units respond at the risk of losing more lives! The response from a fireman on the scene was simply that they would do their best but that he has a job to do. At this point there would be no way for anyone to have a remote idea about how many were injured or killed in the Pentagon and the working assumption would have to be that there were mass casualties. The fact that FBI was more concerned with evidence (or with covering it up!) than with the potential hundreds of injured and dying people is reprehensible.
It was really good to have Russell with us at this meeting because he has years of experience as an EMT in Seattle and was able to carefully scrutinize the details of the dialogue since he understands the emergency lingo. Another interesting development of this meeting was the fact that there was a lady that also had an appointment to listen to the tapes at the same time who happened to be a Pentagon historian! Her curiosity was peaked by Russell's knowledge and claims of possession of difficult to find evidence. Russell being ever the opportunist offered to trade information and she seemed genuinely interested in this. I find it notable that an official historian working for Rumsfeld seems to have less information than independent researchers like Russell!
Our next mission was to meet Channel 9 local morning news anchor and eyewitness to the plane and impact Mike Walter. We were invited to his home for a bar-b-q along with crime scene witness Bob Pugh who has some incredible video footage that he took at the scene. The meeting was relaxed, informal, comfortable and interesting. There was a lot of casual conversation about politics and certainly 9/11. Mike reviewed his account to us but was adamant this time about seeing the plane impact which wasnt the case when he was interviewed by Bryant Gumble on national TV on 9/12. At that time Mike was hesitant about admitting he saw the impact and mentioned that trees had obstructed his view. Mike had us over because he was clearly fascinated with the Loose Change phenomenon. He expressed to us that he believes mainstream news outlets like he works for are dying fast where as alternative media are on the rise. He sees the Loose Change crew as having tapped into this new approach to getting people's attention. The other side of the coin is that he may very well be an intelligence operative that was deep cover for the official story and was literally wooing us to keep tabs and soften the official account by befriending us and inviting us into his home. He gave us one nugget of information. He claimed that the FBI showed up at his work to debrief him about what he saw on 9/11. Mike uses the word "graceful" when describing how the plane banked around before accelerating to make impact. He said that one of the FBI guys seemed bothered by his use of this word. Could it be that they didnt like how it implies the pilot was an expert or could it simply be a little piece of tasty bait to keep our interest? Hard to tell but if I had to place bets it would be on the latter.
We made it back to the hotel and hit the lounge for a few more drinks and conversation before getting some rest for our big day in the morning. Merc and I had taken the red-eye flight so we were working on about 24 hours with no sleep at this point. Lets just say that once we hit those insanely comfortable plush beds at the Sheraton, we were out like a light.
The Elite Pentagon Research Team at work!
Our minds and adrenalin were racing though even in our sleep so we were up early in the morning raring to go again. Russell brought us back over to the VDOT where he had been the day before in order to let us hear the eyewitness accounts and inspect the same type of light poles that were allegedly knocked down by the 757. Madelyn Zackem is a receptionist at the VDOT who was outside having a cigarette when the plane flew over. She gave her account to Russell the day before but agreed to give it again for Merc and myself. We werent allowed to film her though because they required clearance from the top and we would have had to jump through a bunch of hoops. She was very animated and descriptive. She took us right to where she was sitting at the time and described the plane in detail. She said it was grey and that she saw the cockpit. She said it was so low that it was only a "few inches" from the roof of the building. This is impossible of course since it would have hit some other structures and telephone poles that were in the way. I chalk that one up to sensationalizing on her part but of course we can never rule out the possibility that she is a plant. I dont believe so though just because her job isnt cush enough and she still has the same job she had on 9/11. We also talked with Christopher Landis who heard the plane and even had to go inside the damaged pentagon that night when he delivered the lighting. He had the entire Jason Ingersoll 9/11 photo collection with plenty of unreleased photos and he actually burned us a copy! That was a great score. So then we went outside and examined the poles. We were told they are 40 feet tall and 250lbs. After physically examining them and taking pictures all of us determined that there is no way that it was the large pole that pierced Lloyd the taxi driver's windshield after being hit by the 757. It had to be the smaller arm that holds the light or else there simply could be no truth in Lloyd's account. Luckily we were planning to meet Lloyd later in the day to clear this up with him in person. But first we had an appointment to interview Father McGraw at St. Leo's Catholic Church.
Building next to the VDOT that Madelyn says the plane flew only inches above.
Here is the same building pictured next to the VDOT with the tall antenna that the plane had to tilt to miss according to Madelyn.
Same style light poles that allegedly were knocked down by the plane. 250lbs and 40 feet tall.
Dylan, Merc, and I headed for the church. We were told to wait for Father McGraw while he finished up a phone call. We were then invited in to a conference room where we set up the camera to interview him. He gave his account as usual but Merc was careful to phrase the questions to get him to repeat curious statements that he had made in the past. Father McGraw was a Department of Justice attorney for 5 years before he was ordained a priest just a few months before 9/11. He grew up in the Washington DC area. He remembered a plane that crashed into the 14th street bridge when he was a kid and he said his memory associated that with the pentagon crash. Despite all of this he has asserted that he wasn't aware that the big building that he saw got hit by a plane was the Pentagon! He re-asserted this lunacy to us when we asked him point blank. He definitely played the role of simpleton priest very well. Unfortunately his history doesnt jive with this since he was an attorney for the DOJ for 5 years and was only a priest for a few months before 9/11. Father Stephen McGraw is a prime candidate for a deep cover agent. What could possibly be a more cush job that would leave you plenty of time for clandestine covert operations than a priest? After the interview he sent us away with a medallion with the archangel Michael slaying the devil. How curiously fitting especially since he had no reason to know our position on 9/11. He blessed them for us in person. It was more than a bit spooky!
Dylan waiting for Father McGraw.
Father McGraw giving his interview. (cue The Omen music!)
Next we decided to stop at the Orrin Street house in Fairfax where it had been reported that Walleed Alsheri, one of the hijackers, had lived for a period of time. The problem with the official story in this regard is that we have 2 sets of brothers named Walleed and Wail Alsheri One set were sons of a Saudi Diplomat and the other set were sons of a Saudi Businessman. After the Diplomat's sons were initially accused and their pictures plastered, it was reported that they were mistaken identity and that the real culprits were the sons of the businessman. But they never changed the pictures. We figured we could knock on some neighbor's doors and see if they recognized the published face of Walleed. If they did the official story would be caught in a loop because the owner of the Orrin Street house at the time, Hamid Keshnavarzia, has said that the Walleed that rented from him was the son of a Saudi Diplomat. We found the house and the first neighbor that we approached was quite strange indeed. She acted all skittish as if we were attacking her and she kept repeating "why now?" over and over. Obviously we weren't getting anything out of her so we moved on. The next neighbor was also reluctant to talk to us but she did anyway. She confirmed that yes that was the house of a hijacker and that there was disturbing activity going on at that house for quite some time. Lots of late night noise, fancy cars, and suspicious middle easterners going in and out all the time. She said there was way too much activity for a small home that is only supposed to house a few people. She claimed that she identified one of the hijackers to the FBI and that they were in the neighborhood for up to a year afterwards conducting investigations. Now this is quite odd because it was within a couple weeks that they had determined that the Walleed that lived in that house was the son of a Saudi Diplomat and was INNOCENT! This is extremely damaging to the official story. We got what we wanted from this neighborhood and so we got out of there to meet back up with Russell and to go interview Lloyd.
Orrin Street house.
Lloyd was the taxicab driver whose windshield was allegedly pierced by a light pole that was hit by the 757. He told Russell that he still had the damaged cab from 9/11 so we were hoping to be able to inspect it. Even more importantly we wanted to clear up with Lloyd exactly which piece of the poll was supposed to have pierced his windshield. Boy did we ever clear this up! Lloyd invited us into his home and introduced us to his wife. We set up a laptop and pulled up a bunch of pictures of his damaged cab near the downed light pole by the pentagon. We asked him which piece it was and in picture after picture he consistently pointed out the long heavy piece that couldnt possibly have done this without damaging the hood of the car. Russell even drew a diagram of the cab and had Lloyd draw how the pole was positioned. Lloyd drew the heavy end of the long poll sticking out of the windshield into mid-air. He even illustrated the base of the poll. Russell was turning white at this point. But it got worse. Lloyd's wife brought out pictures of the cab that they took when they first got it back from impound. She let us take digital shots of the photos. These shots had even more clear views of the hood which was pristine. But there was also a very curious shot of the interior. The passenger seat that Lloyd claims was knocked down by the severed and sharp pole wasn't even pierced or ripped. But there was also a copy of David Ickes new book at the time, "Children of the Matrix"! This spooked us out beyond belief since David Icke is a well known conspiracy theory author and this particular book is about one of his most unbelievable concepts that the world's elite are an alien race of shapeshifting lizard beings that have been using the New World Order to control the masses. The fact that Lloyd had this book in his cab on 9/11 is simply too outrageous of a coincidence. At this point the notion that Lloyd was under some sort of mind-control or hypnosis on that day simply cannot be easily dismissed. Remember "The Catcher In The Rye" and the role it played in John Lennon's murder and Ronald Reagan's assassination attempt? Lloyd then agreed to do an on camera interview. He explained how the original cab was in "the country" 90 miles away so we couldn't inspect it so we just went outside to conduct the interview in front of his new cab. Lloyd lit up for the camera. He pretty much gave his account as usual but this time he went off on a tangent describing how "silent" everything was and how he doesn't see how a 757 could have possibly caused the damage that he witnessed at the pentagon! Lloyd also curiously described how a stranger that "didnt say a word" helped him remove the light pole from his car but that he didnt notice how the end of the pole that was inside the car was bent and so he literally fell over when taking it out. He didn't mention what the strangely silent helper did at this point and wasnt able to give any additional details about him. This is all quite curious particularly because the hood remained undamaged in spite of Lloyd falling to the ground while pulling the pole out. We asked Lloyd why the hood wasnt damaged and he gave a vague answer but said something to the effect of the mangled dashboard holding it up. This is physically impossible when considering the length and weight of the pole in question. Other notable facts: Lloyd's wife said she retired as a clerk for the FBI. Lloyd had a belt buckle on for the Blue Knights which are a motorcycle fraternity for Law Enforcement agents. He says he has never been a law enforcement agent but is an honorary member of the Blue Knights. Strangely enough he claims he still rides a motorcycle but we could barely believe that he still drives a cab. He is quite old, frail, and a bit senile. He offered to take us to go look at the cab in the country but we simply didnt have the time and frankly I wouldnt have gone anyway!
Lloyd's taxi on 9/11 next to the pole that allegedly went through his windshield.
Another shot from 9/11 with the undamaged hood.
During our interview with Lloyd when he showed us the ripped in half, signed dollar bill that him and another witness found and signed as a keepsake from that day.
Lloyd's personal photos of the cab when it was first returned to him.
The undamaged passenger seat with the David Icke book.
Back to the hotel to get together with Corey and Jason and get some dinner. The guys generously took us out to eat at Outback. We ate, drank, and saturated the place with Loose Change DVDs! The experience at Lloyd's and everything from the trip had been pretty overwhelming and so when we got back to the hotel Russell decided to use the evening to unwind with a few drinks in the Lounge and get friendly with a native Alaskan female. 9/11 was on hold for a few hours.
After falling asleep more than a little spooked out from Lloyd and Father McGraw; I woke up ready to get some more accomplished before we had to leave for the airport by 3:00 at the latest. We decided to drive around the pentagon freeways while filming so we would understand what the view was like that some of the eyewitnesses had. Then on Merc's insistence we went to the neighborhoods further back behind the Sheraton. We first went to witness Thomas Trappasso's old house to see what kind of view he would have had from his balcony to help establish the flight path. He doesn't live there anymore but he gave us the address when I interviewed him over the phone. Then we went to Hoffman-Boston elementary school where a teacher saw the plane. And then we just asked random people that we saw in the neighborhood if they saw or heard anything.
Thomas Trapasso's view from his deck on 1400 S. Barton where he saw the plane.
View from Hoffman-Boston elementary.
We talked to one girl who said she saw the plane. She said it was low, fast, and white. This is notable because there was a white navy plane, either E6 or B52(merc edit), reported flying around the area and even caught on video. Could this be evidence for a fly-over plane that simply fooled people into believing it was a plane that hit the pentagon? It certainly seems quite possible. Especially when you see the area and the immense amount of flight traffic there is coming and going from Reagan National airport right by the pentagon.
We talked to another lady whose nanny saw the plane out of their window. She gave us the nanny's phone number and we called but she wasnt able to really describe the plane because it was going so fast. But she said she felt like it was going to hit the house.
We decided to try and get some footage down by the grassy knoll area by the Citgo because its an amazing view of the pentagon and the flight path. An officer had told Russell that it was ok to film there. But when we talked to the manager she said that she has seen cops tackle people up there! She said she didn't care if we filmed but that it was at our own risk. So we decided to get some quick footage and get out of there. You see the Citgo station is DOD property and you have to have a military ID to buy anything there. Dylan and I went up and got some video footage and I took some still shots too. Merc whistled because he saw a cop but I took too long to get down and the cop saw me. He called his buddies and next thing you know we had about 5 pentagon police cars and a couple of SUVs around us. We were interrogated and they took our cameras and made us erase the footage. One of the cops grabbed my digital and went through it and deleted every picture of the pentagon but I got some back with disk recovery software. Heh. They searched my rental car and all of our stuff. They kept us for over 2 hours asking tons of personal questions. Eventually they gave us back the cameras but confiscated the tapes and let us go just in time to catch our flight back. It was a bummer of a way to end the trip but it could have been a lot worse.
Recovered grassy knoll shots by the Citgo that got us "detained".
Ariel view of citgo and potential flight paths outlined. (The red line matches up with the physical damage such as the light poles but the blue line matches up more with the eyewitnesses and even more importantly the official FDR data.)
Merc and I made it to the flight no problem. We had a layover in Detroit and none other the funkmaster himself George Clinton was waiting to get on the plane to LA with us! So that ended up being an awesome way to end the trip after all!
Merc and George Clinton getting funky!
Free your mind! Your ass will follow!
Paint the white house black y'all!!
|Posted by: JAStewart Aug 31 2006, 09:00 PM|
|Awesome! George Clinton!!|
|Posted by: dylan avery Aug 31 2006, 09:05 PM|
holy crap, look at Merc's hand! he IS a hologram!
|Posted by: Merc Aug 31 2006, 09:39 PM|
| I was throwing up the peace sign.
Nucka said "elite". Man I was kinda just playing when I said that. We're gonna piss people off with that one Lyte.
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Aug 31 2006, 10:05 PM|
| Screw 'em!
Who the hell else has gone as far as we did?
Better believe we're elite!
|Posted by: Rainman71 Aug 31 2006, 10:36 PM|
|Notice what side of the great seal would be on the back side of the right half of a ripped $1 bill?|
|Posted by: Russell Pickering Sep 1 2006, 12:04 AM|
Great memory dude!
I am getting sick of photography this week already so I will take a few minutes here and there to add snippets of my perceptions from the trip.
It was an amazing group of guys - all with different talents and insights. The ability to agree to disagree while looking into the Pentagon issue is going to be the key to understanding what happened there. Our different view points discussed openly and peacefully with respect for each other opened my mind to many things.
The generosity of Dylan, Korey and Jason was extraordinary and will go further to understanding this matter than probably anything else that has been done in person to investigate the Pentagon. A sincere thank you to you guys!!
My topics will be broken down in the order they come to my mind.
There is NO doubt in my mind of the existence of a plane in the general area that morning. In my thinking it is solidly accounted for up to the edge of the Navy Annex nearest the Pentagon. There were differences in color - but generally size, sound, speed and proximity to the "treetops" is definite in my mind. We really had nobody go into detail as to markings and livery colors. They all pretty much said it was to fast. It was also never described as being north of the Sheraton or South of the radio tower. We had white, grey and black underneath. I am willing to consider speed, shadows and reflections in these descriptions.
Nobody described red, blue, shiny aluminum or AA insignias to us in person except for Mike Walter. I did not go to Father McGraw's interview but even Lloyd had no aircraft paint configuration in his story.
We also had no descriptions that fit military aircraft, missiles or a Global Hawk (Global Hawk being precluded because of the tremendous sound that was universally reported). Except for people who were at work or did not live there at the time everybody that was there that I talked to was an audio witness. Whatever flew over was in my opinion commercial sized, low and very loud. It had a body that could be described as white or gray depending on what side of the sunlight you were with black under the wings (or possibly shadows as Edward was underneath on the shaded side of the aircraft).
I watched many planes take off and land in all different light conditions from different directions at Reagan. It was hard to tell if they were in front of the Pentagon, over it or behind it in most circumstances. Some appeared white at first and after turning into the light emerged with various markings including AA. They also looked dark underneath depending on the light. Size was as hard to judge as distance. There is no way to say how different things looked being there in person. It was an invaluable experience.
One thing that people who didn't have the advantage of being there have to realize is the normalcy and sincerity of the new witnesses we found. There was no hesitation, drama or manipulation in their accounts. It just rolled off their tongue in a very convincing fashion. There was no effort to support the official story either. Including Lloyd and Mike Walter, I would trust any of them with my wallet. If they're deep cover they are so good I will not be able to detect or prove it and therefore will not factor it into my physical investigation.
My conclusion is that a plane either hit the Pentagon or flew over it. The flyover would be supported by the FDR animation - the mechanical damage to poles etc. would support an impact. If it was a flyover, it was a pull up and zip and run straight out. There was no time or distance to decelerate, lower flaps, turn, lower gear and hit the ground at Reagan. It would also be stupid to go out then turn back and land at Reagan. By the time factor it would take then you already had witnesses, video and cameras rolling. There is no documentation of a plane landing several minutes into the situation.
The similar tail number aircraft that is reported to have landed at Reagan at 9:39 may have been a separate incident as two minutes would not have been enough time to fly over and return. As Dylan pointed out we have never heard from witnesses from such a plane literally flying through the Pentagon smoke and seeing the scene from the air. Also, after investigating how the BTS data is transmitted and recorded, I do not place a high degree of accuracy to it.
My current belief is that ALL Pentagon research should focus on impact or flyover scenarios.
If you go with impact I believe we should dedicate those efforts to investigating modern day Northwood's scenarios or a method of remote guidance. It was NOT Hani Hanjour. Several of the eyewitnesses commented on how it "looked like" the plane knew what it was doing and two even mentioned it couldn't have been an amateur pilot.
If you can accept a flyover then all of your efforts should go to LOGICALLY and realistically explaining all damage preceding the Pentagon including light poles, eyewitnesses, fences, generators, retaining walls, trees, trailers, debris and the Pentagon wall itself. This has to be satisfactory to human nature, gravity, logistics and broad daylight.
|Posted by: THE DECIDER Sep 1 2006, 12:17 AM|
| Lloyd sounds like a great guy, but kinda sirhan sirhan- ish to me....
the big end hit the window?..thats insane.. why would somebody take the pole out and do a complete 180 with the pole?
not to mention take the weight and momentum of "whatever it was" hit the pole, now how fast does that pole fly through the air?..factor in the weight and momentum....i still think lloyd would have been a goner if this story was true...
i mean how could that hood not even be scratched? hell, a fat guy could snap those seats....
lloyd was there...but he sure doest act like it..
|Posted by: BoneZ Sep 1 2006, 12:54 AM|
I've determined the plane to be an E-4B. You can see my work here:
|Posted by: BoneZ Sep 1 2006, 01:01 AM|
| Another thread in the FDR forum about the E-4B that JackD and i were working on before he left:
"Radar Path And Signals
was E-4B the white plane over DC?"
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Sep 1 2006, 04:45 AM|
Yes thank you.
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Sep 1 2006, 05:10 AM|
|Posted by: BenKenobi Sep 1 2006, 07:20 AM|
| Couldn't the pole be possible? I mean if the plane clipped the top, knocking the light extension off, and the pole tumbled 180 degress and somehow wedged in between the dash and the bottom of the passenger seat it could be sticking out without hitting the hood. It would be like flipping a coin and it landing on its side. Next time one of you is in town, you should take the trip to the junk yard and see where the pole was wedged.
Amazing work guys. Sorry to hear about the police. I don't see what the deal is since there is a road right there you could take pics from as well. The gas station guy probably pushed a panic button or something when you weren't looking. So what's with the crane? Are they doing some top secret construction work?
|Posted by: THE DECIDER Sep 1 2006, 02:25 PM|
imagine the speed that heavy light pole was traveling....that speed / weight should have done some serious damage to the car.....its a FORD!!..lol
|Posted by: Nevermore Sep 1 2006, 02:54 PM|
|Thank you for making this trip and posting details about it here.|
|Posted by: BoneZ Sep 1 2006, 03:04 PM|
That's why i drive only GM cars!
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Sep 1 2006, 04:07 PM|
Although you may trust them with your wallet that is quite irrelevant to 9/11.
I actually agree with you and don't necessarily believe that either Mike or Lloyd are lying or agents in the traditional sense.
I do however leave that open as a strong possibility in light of the serious questions about their accounts.
But at this time I simply believe that Lloyd is a dupe/patsy and Mike Walter is an opportunist/sensationalist.
Lloyd could very well believe his physically impossible account. But you have to consider the fact that his account has remained consistent since day one. What he told us is exactly what he told NBC as well as what we heard in his initial account.
The only account that seems to deviate from that would be the phone interview that you did with him and frankly; he is not the clearest verbal communicator so I can see how you may have misinterpreted some of what he said to you.
Mike Walter however had much to gain by sensationalizing his account. The more attention/press he gets the better it is for his career as a news anchor/reporter. And he does in fact seem to be most well known as an eyewitness to the pentagon attack.
Plus his account contradicts other eyewitness accounts. For everybody else as far back as behind the Sheraton; the plane was moving too fast and low for them to give a detailed description.
But Mike saw this "graceful" slow bank at a high altitude before the plane accelerated and made impact which enabled him to describe everything in much more detail.
Could Mike have really seen a graceful bank of this nature from where he was if the plane was flying extremely fast and low over hoffman-boston elementary and Thomas trappasso's house even further back?
His account seems to conflict with everyone else we talked to including the "white plane girl", the nanny, Edward Paik, and Madelyn Zackem.
|Posted by: water_bender Sep 1 2006, 05:23 PM|
| who is the white plane girl?
speaking of white planes, i emailed linda brookhart in hopes of reconciling where exactly she was when the picture was taken. ive started trying to fit in the flight path of the plane in her photo, but i cant seem to find the building in her pic in any place that would make sense in regards to the planes trajectory.
|Posted by: Merc Sep 1 2006, 05:54 PM|
There was this girl we had encountered coming out of her house on 13th and Poe. She, her cousin, her father (RIP) and her neighbor's nanny had seen the plane.
When we asked her what color her first and immediate response was "white". She then said a "white blur".
We asked her if she noticed any markings or insignias. She said no.
She didn't notice how many engines. She said it happened too fast.
That is excellent about Linda Brookhart, stay on that.
|Posted by: BenKenobi Sep 2 2006, 05:23 AM|
| Well I figured out the light pole, I think. Notice the weird book on the seat, and owner's manual beside it? See the big hole in the dash above the glove box? That's where the books were. Notice how the driver's side on the windshield had more damage? The pole impaled through the dash into the glovebox, maybe to the floorboard and leaned out over the driver's side fender. If he said it impaled the seat, he is full of it, as you can see by the seat photo. It also depends on if his pole was severed or just knocked down by the ridiculous speed of the plane. If it was severed, then how it became airborn enough to impale like that is a problem. It probably just tipped over and the lightbulb part did the damage.
He may have been paid to embellish his story. Don't you think the dollar thing is totally odd.
Sorry if this thread isn't for investigating, just delete this. I'm kinda fascinated by this old guy's story.
BTW aren't you worried about leaving those pics up?
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Sep 2 2006, 05:57 PM|
I still can't picture it.
I find it funny that we have to make up scenarios to explain the account because the scenario that Lloyd gave us is impossible.
But we do and I'm sure it's ok in this thread (or the Lloyd thread) because apparently Russell came to a different conclusion then Merc and I so this most certainly will continue to be hashed out.
Lloyd's account is simply too important to the 757 impact hypothesis.
First you have to consider the length and weight of the pole.
The pole was 40 feet long and 250lbs before it was severed. This particular pole was severed closer to the top so it's safe to say it was over 20 feet. Probably at least 25 feet but the top end was bent so let's go with 20 feet just for the sake of discussion.
A 1990 Lincoln is about 16 feet from hood to trunk so from the windshield to back seat you can't be talking about more than 8 feet.
That means better than half the pole had to be sticking out of the windshield with the HEAVY end sticking out into mid-air. Impossible.
Under your scenario much more of the pole would have to be sticking out of the windshield making it even more impossible that the hood remained undamaged.
Lloyd didn't say that the pole impaled the passenger seat but he did say it "knocked it down" and went into the back seat.
I simply maintain that it would be pretty difficult for a sharp severed pole to knock down the passenger seat without piercing or ripping it even though it was sent flying by a 757 going 500+ mph.
I don't understand why you think we should worry about posting the pictures.
|Posted by: behind Sep 2 2006, 06:56 PM|
| I am also "... kinda fascinated by this old guy's story."...like someone said.
It looks interesting to me that this man was allegedly at Pentagon when it all happend 9/11.
But most (or all) of his story is about this lamp pole flying into his car.
He have very little (or nearly nothing) to say about all the other things that happend there.
It is just the lamp pole... and now I think, most people agree that it is very hard to belive the story as England tells it... well... it would be easier to belive if he is talking about some small part of the pole etc... but, no!...it is 20 feet pole... and the bottom of it went through the window!
And...what I am trying to say...it is strange how his story is all about this pole.
(just my thoughts )
|Posted by: Cary Sep 2 2006, 11:06 PM|
| Removing a 250 lb. light pole that is impaled into a Lincoln Town Car would have made some marks or damage to the hood. I don't know what hit this man's car. I have a 98' Town Car because I love the body style. Something that long and heavy coming through the windshield would have definitely made and impression on the hood.
|Posted by: Logic Sep 4 2006, 04:08 AM|
| Thank you guys very much.
Father McGraw's story and your story upon meeting him seems the strangest out of all of them in my eyes. Something's wrong with his history and also his account of not knowing the building was the pentagon.
I see Loyd's story as being the top portion of the poll (where the lamp is attached) impacting the windsheild and dash. I can see the dash board rising up further than the hood, which would give it a seesaw type position where if it hit the dash, destroyed the inside, it could have balanced somewhat to not have touched the hood, but the odds of this are extrodinary, although possible. Now when he is describing the bottom of the poll going through, this is with the square and broad heavier end correct ? If this is the picture he paints, then this seems very unlikely, unless it was the square section of the poll with the bolts that hold it positioned to the ground going through the windsheild and a corner of the square bottom is what caused the damage inside. This would leave the poll touching the hood though in almost all angles I draw as the base of the poll is thicker and the seesaw effect would be disrupted, because the poll's thickness becomes less as it nears the top, which when drawing up the dimentions, leaves the poll leaning on the hood in almost all possible angles.
Amazing discriptions of your trip my friends. I almost felt as if I was there with you as I read. With all of the discriptions you all have provided, I feel that a plane was in fact in the area and when you combined the damage to the building, it seems very unlikely that it was anything else but a plane that hit. I don't want to speculate on this issue, so I won't come up with any theory as just finding out the information that's out there, then putting it together will show what this is in the end. Fly over seems possible too, but there now has to be some sort of reason for the damage to the building and lack of witnessess seeing a flyover. Skewing of the facts or blockage of the real facts(that the government has done) seem so likely now after reading your trip's details. Many details through-out putting the pieces together, seem to cancel eachother out, leaving the answer still at "we don't know what happened" at the end of the day, but what you all have done has now made progress in finding it out.
|Posted by: Parmenides Sep 4 2006, 05:03 AM|
|I think the part of the pole that hit the cab was the severed top part. You can see another piece lying by the cab in the picture. I seriously doubt the guy is on the take. If he's insisting the part that impaled his windshield was the base end, I'd write it off as "war story" exaggeration. This is his 15 minutes of fame, and he's gonna get all the milage out of it he can.|
|Posted by: water_bender Sep 4 2006, 03:42 PM|
| i think the next logical and necesary step is decoding the raw fdr data. i think we might find some inconsistences with it and the csv file that was also sent with it. having been removed from the fdr research teams private forum, i dont know how far they have gotten in this matter, but i know im pretty close. i really dont think that the entirety of the data in the released csv is from the plane that hit the pentagon or flight 77. though i do believe that some of it is from 77. just a personal hunch. i'm also distressed by the picture of the white 4 engine jet that flew directly over the white house and was also seen near the pentagon. as best as i have been able to tell the trajectories dont make any sense what so ever. at least not when referenced by the photograph taken of it. im still trying to figure out exactly where dylans footage was shot from, but i havent gotten an answer tyo that question (though i had only posted it once in a pretty dead thread) does anyone know from where that footage was shot? or what the time was when it was shot?
other unsettling questions that remain are a : why is the fdr info and the animation cut short? there was no impact yet to warrant that. b : why has noone in the media picked up on the release of the ntsb information and the animation
anyway, todays 2 pennies.
|Posted by: KADrummer6 Sep 4 2006, 10:24 PM|
I agree with the same questions. To me, it is very likely Flight 77 or a drone hit the pentagon (eyewitness accounts, alot of plane debris inside the pentagon), but at the same time, I've never seen it.
The FBI has only released the framed video of a blur that resembles a plane, and now the FDR came out (thanks to JohnDoeX) and shows that the plane, according to the numbers, was too high to hit the lamp poles and it stopped before it could be seen hitting the pentagon.
I don't get why they don't just show the video. As I've said before, when a person refuses to show a picture, video, etc. to prove something, then it's very likely he's hiding something. If it was so legit, show the video.
...but of course, if the FDR is right and the plane was too high to hit the poles, then we've got a serious problem on our hands...well, there hands. That might be why they actively refuse to show any clear attack on the Pentagon.
Furthermore, it's not a security issue, seeing as how the attack occured with sucess in a manner that could never have been predictied. nobody even saw that coming DURING the tests they did.
|Posted by: Merc Sep 5 2006, 01:07 PM|
| Maybe you guys are getting it.
The damage to the dash is indicating that "they" WERE trying to fool us and use this stupid idea of the big pole. That is WHY the dash is damaged.
You can doubt he is on the take all you want.
You are clearly not taking it all in.
|Posted by: Merc Sep 5 2006, 01:09 PM|
Wrong. He told us it was the large piece.
Uh and if he is exaggerating for the 15 minutes of fame, then he is on the take.
|Posted by: DAV Sep 5 2006, 11:21 PM|
Am wholeheartedly agreeing. Had initially submitted that it may have been an A340, though after taking several ganders with my binoculars at the E-4Bs that routinely fly way slowly over my part of western Nebraska, it is, without question in my mind, an E-4B that is the White Plane over the Pentagon that morning. Painted in "anti-flash" white (i.e.- it relflects thermal heat from nukes going off in moderate proximity).
Don't you love disk recovery software? Great job, everyone. Am admiring your patriotism, courage & walking the talk. Fine thread.
|Posted by: Lyte Trip Sep 6 2006, 05:19 AM|
Yeah, Russell recommended I download a free trial of disk recovery software.
That made my day!
Very interesting take on the "anti-flash" paint.
Never heard of that before.
As far as Lloyd goes....here is my bottom line:
Since his account is CRUCIAL to the impact hypothesis it would be disingenuous to explain away or blow off any inconsistencies in his story.
The fact alone that his story doesn't hold up is a serious smoking gun.
Coupled with the now well documented other FACT that there has been a deliberate suppression of evidence, particularly the 85 surveillance videos.........IMHO the 757 impact hypothesis is all but dead.
It simply does not make sense that the perps would use a 757 and not release any proof of it.
|Posted by: johndoeX Sep 6 2006, 06:46 AM|
It doesnt really matter what anyone thinks the csv file is from. The NTSB says it is from AA77... therefore ALL of it falls on the govt shoulders. Its not our job to figure out which part is from AA77 and which is not. The NTSB has already told us it is ALL from AA77.
They need to answer for the FDR conflict with the offical story regarding the light poles. (and consequently the conflict with the DOD video showing an object level across the lawn). Both being direct conflicts with the FDR data from 4 different sources.