This is the submission for the near "final" flight path that I have been working on in a trial and error mode. I am providing a link to the layered files so that anybody can download it and test it.

I am also going to provide links to each element of it with brief instructions so that you may also create it from scratch yourself. My goal here is to come to some consensus on its accuracy so that from it other evidence can be analyzed and tested.

There have been errors in my past efforts which have been correctly pointed out. I have tried corrections and posted explanations to no avail. So here it is for those dedicated enough to examine it critically.

A brief history of what this is founded on. JDX one night showed correctly that the flight path would possibly bring the right wing into contact with the VDOT mast which I found to be true if you started at the building and worked backwards.

In my examination of that I discovered damage to the side of that pole. I combined that with corresponding documentation from the VDOT that the glass in front of the camera lens on the camera that was mounted on the pole had been shattered. This documentation was in the form of an Internet article and an in person investigation. You can review that below and make any comments there you wish. Please keep this thread about a flight path graphic which you can download and examine or create from scratch yourself.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...showtopic=15307

The most grievous error was my attempts to overlay the satellite image from 9-7-01 onto a current Google image. Even though it matches in certain respects it was always a little off. After trying to adjust it again I discovered that even though it was closer it was still way off in terms of what I believe is the "working forward" starting point, the VDOT camera mast. I don't know if the current and old satellite images are different resolutions or what. You can acquire the 9-7-01 satellite image in high resolution here: http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/9-11/#. Go to 09-07-01 and click on it. Then click where it says, "Download larger image (300 dpi)".

The reason I wanted that image as an overlay is so that we could have the generator and the other objects present on 9/11 in place. The way I have circumvented this issue is to overlay only that small portion of the 09-07-01 image onto a current Google image. The image portion I used is in the file you can download or you can get it from the above link and do it yourself.

The next problem was my attempts to line it up with the mast itself. Because of foreshortening and the angle of the satellite image there was some guesswork that led to errors as well. JDX pointed out the best thing to do was use the center of the base and treat the situation as flat. That worked.

The steps are like this:

1) Go to Google Earth and acquire the image area you want around the Pentagon.

2) Zoom in on the VDOT mast and go to the "tools" menu and then to "measure". Bring up the measuring tool. Select "path" and put a single red dot in the middle of the VDOT mast base. Then switch to the line tool. Find a relatively flat area like I did in the cloverleaf. Zooming in fairly tight and turning of the "terrain" feature is what Google recommends for the most accurate measurement. Make a line that represents the wingspan of a 757 - 124' 10". Close the measuring tool.

3) Then back out to the original area selected. Make sure you have true north as the orientation and save this image to your computer. In the download file I have provided the compass and the aircraft.

The compass can be acquired below and will need to be re sized and/or cropped for use. http://images.google.com/images?q=compass&...G=Search+Images

The aircraft can be acquired below and you can cut it out from this diagram. The aircraft cutout I have included is left large on purpose so that you can scale it to your own standards. http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=101

4) Open all of your elements in a photo program. I use Photoshop CS. Take the Google background and create a vertical guide. Ensure that you have the compass straight up and down as well as centered so that it represents true north as on the Google compass.

5) Then scale the aircraft to the wingspan measurement you created. Create a line using the line tool starting at 61.5 degrees through the reciprocal 241.5 degrees through the dead center of the compass. Center the aircraft on that line. Then move the aircraft so that the wingtip barely touches the VDOT camera mast. I added lines to represent the various parts of the aircraft. Do this by duplicating the line you created in the center of the compass so it is at the 61.5 degrees.

I added the lamp poles too. The best way to do this is to zoom in on Google Earth and locate each pole and then go back to your photo program and put a dot right at the base.

The following is what you should come up with. Download the one I made or create your own and critique it so that we can move forward with it.



Layered files: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/v.asp?v=%8...5Cb%A9%BA%AB%9C

For those that want to inspect the VDOT pole damage here is all of Jason Ingersoll's photos: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/v.asp?v=%8...%95%B2%A9%A3%A7

EDIT: The ones that pertain to the VDOT mast are 0412-0419 but the rest are very good for many other things.

True course is still off a few degrees.

The impact hole doesnt match up with your first impact points. This new path is a few windows north.

If the Gen and impact hole lined up with the first, it no longer lines up with this final.

I dont see an American Airlines 757 hitting the building in any of your pictures/flight paths.

A reminder...

This last conclusion makes ALOT of sense. "Disinformation campaigns containing numerous errors."

This site does it the right way. They took a govt report and went from there.

A compilation of Russells time and energy spent trying to fit a 757 into the pentagon...

all overlays on top of another... (all of them fit "perfectly" each time. .according to Russ)



what a mess... :rolleyes:

Will you please demonstrate how it is off specifically? A few degrees?

The first attempts are in the past.

This will be lined up with the front of the building for confirmation in another graphic after the other physical damage is looked at.

Also, can you not distract this thread please? You have posted Sami's work many times today and I have agreed to examine it. I am in contact with him and waiting for a response from him before I do since I respect his work. I will work with him on some of the new information and discoveries.

Here is a clue from his own work though,"First, however, I want to emphasize that the main point of my analysis is to refute the ASCE Report mentioned, and I have in principle nothing against the idea that a Boeing 757 might have been at the Pentagon and (partially) destroyed before the impact, provided that convincing evidence can be presented. Such evidence, however, is not contained in Hoffman's analysis, nor have I encountered it anywhere else."

http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/trapcomments.html

I will also invite him here so it can be discussed by him as well since is he is an honest real researcher and has been for some time.

In the mean time you should also review my work on the ASCE report.
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/bps.html

Please try and keep this factual and specific instead of just tossing around words like "disinformation" and "errors" OK? It is all there in all of the original files.

Russ.. instead of spending all this time and energy trying to fit a 757 into the pentagon.. how about you take down the misinformation off your site that has been there for what.. years?



http://www.pentagonresearch.com/017.html

Recapitulating the past, taking up time with long repetetive posts and consuming space with large graphics is just what I expected.

Does anybody else find this unusual given the efforts I have gone to? Your opinion is welcome!

Please examine the current graphic as I asked.

Since I am comfortable with the relative accuracy of the current graphic given that these things are generally an estimate given all the variables, let's look at how it lines up with the physical damage in the area.

The top half of it can be viewed below. I will post the flight path graphic again at the bottom since it is so far up the page now.



To me it is no coincidence that there are traces of evidence in the physical world surrounding the flight path that can be related to the graphic. If you look at the wingtip damage to the VDOT mast which was my "working forward" starting point you can see something happened there. That is justified by the broken glass as well.

Then look at the tree damage that corresponds to the approximate location of the right engine.

Then look at the deflection of pole number two off to the left and back. This also makes sense with the taper of the wing, direction of travel and the fact that it appears to have been right at the wingtip.

Either this is all coincidence or a perfectly planned fabrication if it was not an aircraft. Poles impacted and poles not impacted also fit.

Moving towards the building now we can examine where the left and right engine also line up with photographic evidence of damage. Again, the alignment to the retaining wall and the generator fence is an exceptional coincidence or a perfectly planned fabrication.

The above quote is a flat out spin of my words.

Here is the original photo showing Russ the flight path based on True course working back from impact point...




Here is the latest of Russell attempting to once again fit the aircraft with my original blue line...



Russell contends the VDOT pole was hit at 30 AGL. He doesnt account for dihedral which would take out the highway sign and possibly the cab on the roadway.



Russell said that Pole 1 was hit at 31.5 AGL. Impossible if the VDOT was struck at 30 AGL due to dihedral alone.

AGL = Above Ground Level.

Russ.. you're reaching. You want to fit one aspect, but it creates a conflict with another. How about you give up trying to fit a 757 into the pentagon. .and join us in asking the govt why there are conflicts with the FDR? Perhaps you are afraid to ask the govt? Perhaps you dont want to ask the govt? Perhaps you want to downplay the importance of the FDR which was provided by a govt agency?

Russ.. show us an American Airlines 757 hitting the pentagon... until then you are spinning your wheels. We already know what the official report says, you dont have to spend so much time and energy trying to convince us.

Russ. .you say this same exact thing with EVERY flight path you present... lol. Until you fix the "errors".

What a mess..

By the way. .the reason i keep repeating the 270 degree path you have on your site is to show your discipline as a researcher. Many researchers have known for years that the 270 degree turn is not accurate. Yet you still keep it on your site for others to see daily as a first impression. That, to me... shows ZERO discipline in your work. Who knows what else you have on that site which is not accurate.

The fact you waste so much time and energy trying to convince others of each consecutive flight path that lines up "perfectly" without spending the few minutes to take down that 270 degree turn speaks volumes of your (lack of) discipline and perhaps agenda.

As i said, we know what the official story reports, you dont need to try and convince us. We want to find out why there are conflicts.

The flight path and pole estimates of the past are now being revised as I stated. The previous attempts were developed over time as new information became evident.

I apologize if I misrepresented your words when you displayed a graphic and said I was wrong because it would have hit the VDOT mast. Maybe you could find that post and correct me. Don't get me wrong - I am glad you pointed it out or I would have never found the mast damage.

I never contended that the VDOT mast was hit at 30 feet. It is very clear by even my first graphics that I believe it was higher than 30 feet.



You can review that thread here: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...showtopic=15307

As far as your dihedral theory goes it fits just fine. If the very tip of the wing hit the VDOT mast at approximately 35 feet and the wing is lower near the right engine that would account for the trees.

I have been doing a lot of work on elevations in the area and will also be totally revising pole heights etc. We should realize that this is all a learning process. I make mistakes all the time but always try to get closer to the facts as we go.

But we'll do all that with the height/elevation of things later OK? This had to come first logically.

Russ, the descent rate and the amount of force needed to pull that aircraft level would have put the wing tips probably 30-35 feet above the bottom of the fuselage.

I would go so far to say that the dihedral would have put the fuselage and engines buried into the highway, cab, Lloyd and whoever else.

You holdling onto a "scuff" on the VDOT pole combined with a shrub is laughable at best and just sad at least.

The dihedral of an aircraft sitting on the ground is about 15 feet, tip to bottom. Thats with NO LIFT under the wings. Put it in normal flight and i bet its about 10 feet more to 25 feet. Put the aircraft in a high speed dive triyng to pull out and you have the bottom of the fuselage hitting the ground with a VDOT clip at ~30 feet. (i included the "~" just for you Russ.)

[cheers]

Can you factually demonstrate this with a video or actual photo? It would help.

So it is your opinion that the 61.5 degrees, the physical damage relating to various aspects of the flight path and the damage to the Pentagon is all a coincidence or a well orchestrated fabrication?

Dihedral is 5 degrees from center wing attachment point.
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/...g_757-200.shtml

Sine (5) = .087156

.087156(124) = 10.8 feet.

Add pylons/engines and thats another ~7 feet.

If you need to see a wing flex.. just look at the impact of WTC 2.


Im not going to even try to explain wing flex and dihedral to you when it took probably 2 hours of cell phone minutes and about 10 pages of posts here to try and explain pressure altitude to you.


61.5 degrees true doesnt add up to your physical damage as shown in the blue line above.

Fabricated? I have no idea what happened.. it actually appears to be a bombing run more than anything when looking at the FDR and the damage. Look up CCIP.

Which would explain all the physical damage that doesnt line up with a 757.

Can you demonstrate with the new graphic what doesn't line up specifically?

Just an example from a quick search...

Its above.. but i'll post it again...

If this attack was a bombing run with some type of MOAB.. it would explain everythnig.. including the exit hole.

What is the origin of your blue line?

We could start anywhere and use the course of 61.5 degrees from there.

How does dihedral make the plane take out the taxi? I also demonstrated that 30 AGL is not my assumption at all.

How did we go from a publicly offered flight path consideration to a bombing run?

A bombing run is something of my personal opinon when i take ALL the facts into consideration. The physical damage and FDR. (Combined with the fact i have flown sims on many bombing engagements using CCIP). I rarely share it publicly.


You ignore the FDR and try to convice others of the official govt story of a 757 impact.

The origin of the blue line is in the picture. Look at it.

It is based on your first impact point that you said lined up "perfectly" with the generator.. etc.

lol

I said we were starting from scratch and asked for a fair and honest critique of this flight path and now we are talking about bombing runs and hearing repetitions of old issues and personal criticisms over and over.

Of course you want one from scratch Russ. Isnt that the "Play Dumb" rule of disinfo and distraction?

Look at the picture above.. its already presented. Im sorry you cannot understand it.

So let's see how this all lines up with the fuselage impact area.



This is a photo of the Pentagon dated April of 2000. You can see that the fencing is different and that the generator is not there yet. But it does give us some key location indicators to identify in the flight path satellite photo.



You can compare and line up the impact area in this cropped version of the flight path graphic to the indicators above.



Now you can count the windows and go back and forth between photos to locate the flight path to the impact area. Starting back at the VDOT pole and using .csv file course information and as carefully as possible measuring everything this is what you come up with.

The damage both severe and subtle in the area all line up in a reasonable proximity to the mechanical damage flight path.

No matter what we prefer to believe, if I am perfectly honest with myself I have to conclude it was either an aircraft that caused this damage, a near perfectly fabricated deception or just coincidence.

No wing impact areas shown. No tail impact areas shown. No engine impact areas shown. No American Airlines 757 shown.

The FDR shows the aircraft at 480MSL.


I also read the sticky above for the first time presented by Merc. It seems you applauded his work in there Russ. Perhaps you should read it again...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...?showtopic=4223

I also notice the official report says the aircraft came in with "right wing tilted up to accomodate for the generator".

Thats another conflict with the FDR. The FDR shows a right bank angle (right wing tilted down). Which in fact would make more sense for your VDOT "scuff" based on the dihedral, but would not make sense for the gen... its one or the other... cant have both.

If the right wing was tilted up, and the VDOT pole was struck at ROUGHLY 30 feet above ground level, say goodbye to Lloyd and his cab, and whoever else was on the highway...not to mention that plane should have been cart-wheeling across the lawn.

So, let me get this straight... the above tree was impacted be a 757 Rolls Royce engine at full thrust traveling at 530 mph... but...

Stood still upright to get burned up? It was never torn apart, knocked down? Sucked in the engine?

Left Wing: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...showtopic=12614

Center hole: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...showtopic=14831

Right Wing: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...?showtopic=6166

The tail review is in progress. But so you can prepare, the clue is the only broken window on floor 3. If you imagine the angle of the aircraft coming in and follow it to that window you will realize that is the highest damage of its type.

As I have said in regards to my previous phases of investigation - I adapt to new information. I praised Merc's work on a good presentation because he deserved it. He actually did research you know?

The FDR is either fake or recovered from the wreckage. You can't use faked information for an argument. I'm sorry but that is true no matter what.

If you agree that it was taken from the wreckage, will you please explain when and where it ended and if there was time for a tilt of the wings (like some witnesses reported) in between the last recording and the impact?

You say this like it is fact.

Please back it up.

There are many possibilities for the FDR. Many have been gone over ad naseum. Im not surprised you dont remember.

If the FDR is fake.. you seem to be ok getting fake information from our govt via an FOIA considering you are trying to convince everyone here of the official story.

If the FDR was found in the wreckage, please tell us how it was found.. by who and chain of custody...


oh.. thats right. .you just have the word of the govt. And you trust it..

But then you think WTC 7 brought down by Controlled Demo. And that the 757 was remote controlled into the pentagon.. [laughing]


i like my new BS Flag...

[bsflag]

uploaded it to the similies just for you Russ...

That is a Daryl Donley photo. He took a series of them. They can all be found here: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/911/911-docphotos.html

The one you used is not the tree burning (at least in a standing position). In his close up you can see the stump.



This is confirmed to be the stump in several other photos taken in the area later.

Also, the right engine hit the generator and penetrated the wall behind it. Read that thread for the photos.

The DFDR is real or it is fake. Nothing in between is possible. We had a discussion on its discovery in great detail here: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...ic=15307&st=150

The right bank is shown in the FDR right up till reported impact time of 09:37:45.

Its one of the parameters that recorded past :44 and recorded 4 times per second.

I agree its real or its fake.

But just because its real does not mean it wasnt planted or recorded remotely, or even the reported chain of custody was fabricated.

You seem to trust the govt story on the chain of custody of the FDR... but yet think the 757 could be remote controlled and that WTC 7 was controlled Demo.


:blink:

So it is real data recovered from the impact then?

Can you show us the specific data that indicates it's banking attitude right up to the wall please?

Sure looks like a burning tree to me in exactly the right spot too...

Im not surprised only a stump was left after this thing was torched like that and the fire dept knocked it down to put it out.

Im also not surprised you think the 757 knocked it down at impact by showing a photo that is clearly later in the day after the fire.

I never said it was recovered in the impact.. you did.

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth Russ? What rule of disinfo/distraction is that? lol

You fail to grasp that the FDR could have been planted, remotely recorded (such as with ACARS technology as has been explained before), and/or chain of custody report fabricated...

You seem to trust the govt based on the report of where the FDR was found 2 days after Sept 11, but you think WTC 7 was controlled demo and that the 757 was a remote control airplane?

(I'll keep repeating it till you get it... ;) )

For you Russ...

[bsflag]

As for bank.. watch this animation Russ...

It contiunues that bank up to :45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzR-q0ijbV0

Here is the screenshot if you forgot...



If you cant see the bank due to the photo being washed out.. look at the little instrument to the right with the little airplane in it with the purple top (thats the sky) and the brown bottom (thats the ground). That instrument is called an Attitude Indicator.

Thanks for that thread Russ. It reminds me of TVenn... by the way, did he provide that evidence to you of the light poles being staged? You never did answer me on that...


nor have you posted anything on it..

(im not surprised)