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 Greece vs Mongols vs Persia, A three-way slug fest
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 9 2008, 09:14 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 12:19 AM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 02:07 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 06:53 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 10 2008, 09:32 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly wink.gif


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 11 2008, 01:35 AM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly wink.gif

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 11 2008, 01:52 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly wink.gif

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif

cool.gif ... do i need to say more?


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 11 2008, 02:26 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 09:52 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS laugh.gif ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. wink.gif wink.gif

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly wink.gif

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif

cool.gif ... do i need to say more?

You've said too much already. cool.gif cool.gif


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 11 2008, 06:54 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



ninja.gif


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
Wingman
Posted: Apr 11 2008, 08:02 PM


I'm better than you. That's all I know.


Group: Admin
Posts: 2,439
Member No.: 14
Joined: 11-January 08



QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM)
ninja.gif

Geez-louis, do you see the size of the post quote column? It's gigantic!!! That's the largest one I've ever seen!! This page is enormous!


--------------------
"Never in the course of human history has so much been owed by so many to so few."- Winston Churchill, commenting on the heroic struggles of the RAF against the German Luftwaffe.

----
I don't smoke, I don't chew... and I don't date girls who do.

----

War produces classic remarks by military commanders; on February 26, 1991, the US 1st Armored Division, the famous Big Red One, encountered the allegedly elite Iraqi Republican Guard. The divisional commander, Major General Ronald Griffiths, radioed his deputy, who was riding with the armored spearhead. "I understand we are engaging the Medina Division?" he said, referring to one of the crack Iraqi Guard divisions. "Negative, sir," came the reply. "We are destroying the Medina Division."
Great proof that despite their quantity, the Soviet tanks that NATO planners feared above all else could be shredded by the M1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, LeClerc, Ariete, and Merkava with ease. Patton would be proud.

Top
super_wolverine_Man
Posted: Apr 12 2008, 02:44 PM


Head Admin


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,680
Member No.: 3
Joined: 9-January 08



QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 08:02 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM)
ninja.gif

Geez-louis, do you see the size of the post quote column? It's gigantic!!! That's the largest one I've ever seen!! This page is enormous!

i know man


--------------------

Points:

"The first shot rang out from somewhere and I heard a bullet wiz by my face. With my pump action shotgun ready, I shoot the first fool I see."

Grano's so gangster.
Top
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