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Title: Greece vs Mongols vs Persia
Description: A three-way slug fest


Guardian Of Nesh - March 26, 2008 03:06 AM (GMT)
Okay so the mongols are invading Greece at a time, let's say 5 monts before the Persians show up. So this war is actually a two-parter. Who wins or is winning before the Persians show up and who wins over-all? Yes this includes those famous 300. Aliances are allowed which means possible back-stabbing, outline these in your posts.

super_wolverine_Man - March 27, 2008 12:06 AM (GMT)
i know this probably won't spark any great debates, but the Mongols murder them any which way

The Ripper - March 27, 2008 01:11 AM (GMT)
Here is the answer in Persian point of view:

Persians:

We were advanced for our age.

The Immortals were actually heavily armored.

We had a better economy.

DataSnake - March 27, 2008 01:33 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Ripper @ Mar 27 2008, 01:11 AM)
Here is the answer in Persian point of view:

Persians:

We were advanced for our age.

The Immortals were actually heavily armored.

We had a better economy.

The immortals were actually pwned by the Spartans, who were ALSO actually armored. Nobody messed with the phalanx until Macedonia.

The Ripper - March 27, 2008 02:05 AM (GMT)
How were we pwned?

This guy said we won!

boston_celtics - March 27, 2008 03:25 AM (GMT)
The Mongols conquered them before, they do it again.

Wingman - March 27, 2008 12:32 PM (GMT)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

The Ripper - March 27, 2008 05:34 PM (GMT)

Wingman - March 27, 2008 06:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Ripper @ Mar 26 2008, 09:11 PM)
Here is the answer in Persian point of view:

Persians:

We were advanced for our age.

The Immortals were actually heavily armored.

We had a better economy.

Actually, read "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson. It clearly outlines how the Persian economy was stagnant at the time of the invasion of Greece, because of a number of factors, most of which involve the king sticking his nose in an otherwise good situation. Ripper, lets get one thing straight before we continue: I'm not in any way bashing on your heritage, man, nor an I saying I hate Middle Easterners. I'm just stating the facts. Heck, I'm a forth generation Slovenian on my mom's side, and could care less about them. I don't know if they even fought and won a big battle! You can bash me all you want! I'm just saying this so you don't start thinking of me as a Persian hater or something. I do like the Greeks, and have studied them extensively, but I don't have any problem with your heritage.

The Ripper - March 27, 2008 06:48 PM (GMT)
I see that.

I just saw some videos that got me a bit riled.

DataSnake - March 27, 2008 07:39 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Ripper @ Mar 27 2008, 02:05 AM)
How were we pwned?

This guy said we won!

He also says Iran has cured AIDS, which he maintains was "invented" by Greeks engaging in gay beastiality (actually, it has fuck-all to do with sexual orientation and is currently believed to have crossed over from other primates to humans in Africa, in a completely NON-SEXUAL manner). He also seems to think that PRESENT-DAY Iran coming in ahead of PRESENT-DAY Greece in a variety of areas is somehow relevant to what happened thousands of years ago.
He also shows how unbiased he is with the following quote:
QUOTE
You damn American movie makers have to realize that the Persians will soon run your country, we are no africans eyetalians latinos arabs nor russians who would just sit quietly and watch you diss them in your movies we fight fire with even more fire, behold for you are about to watch the mother of all movies.

I believe he can be safely dismissed as an expert on anything.

Wingman - April 8, 2008 12:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (DataSnake @ Mar 27 2008, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE (The Ripper @ Mar 27 2008, 02:05 AM)
How were we pwned?

This guy said we won!

He also says Iran has cured AIDS, which he maintains was "invented" by Greeks engaging in gay beastiality (actually, it has fuck-all to do with sexual orientation and is currently believed to have crossed over from other primates to humans in Africa, in a completely NON-SEXUAL manner). He also seems to think that PRESENT-DAY Iran coming in ahead of PRESENT-DAY Greece in a variety of areas is somehow relevant to what happened thousands of years ago.
He also shows how unbiased he is with the following quote:
QUOTE
You damn American movie makers have to realize that the Persians will soon run your country, we are no africans eyetalians latinos arabs nor russians who would just sit quietly and watch you diss them in your movies we fight fire with even more fire, behold for you are about to watch the mother of all movies.

I believe he can be safely dismissed as an expert on anything.

Sounds like Ahmadinejad, or however the heck you spell his name. My Arabic is rusty. ;)

super_wolverine_Man - April 9, 2008 07:21 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

super_wolverine_Man - April 9, 2008 07:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

Wingman - April 9, 2008 08:15 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

super_wolverine_Man - April 9, 2008 09:14 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

Wingman - April 9, 2008 11:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

super_wolverine_Man - April 10, 2008 12:19 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Wingman - April 10, 2008 12:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

super_wolverine_Man - April 10, 2008 02:07 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

Wingman - April 10, 2008 02:45 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

super_wolverine_Man - April 10, 2008 06:53 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

Wingman - April 10, 2008 08:38 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

super_wolverine_Man - April 10, 2008 09:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly ;)

Wingman - April 11, 2008 01:35 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly ;)

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? B) B) B) B)

super_wolverine_Man - April 11, 2008 01:52 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly ;)

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? B) B) B) B)

B) ... do i need to say more?

Wingman - April 11, 2008 02:26 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 09:52 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 10 2008, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 10 2008, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 9 2008, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 03:23 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 9 2008, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Mar 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Greeks take it. I have to keep this short.

Mongols lose, since most of the land is rocky and bad in general for cavalry. The Greek plalanx is arguably even more effective against enemies, especially cavalry, than the legion, but you sacrifice mobility. But that's okay, since they'll likely fight in narrow defiles and small passes like Thermopylae. They will fight a delaying action, inflicting terrible losses. And the Immortals, in real life, WEREN'T armored. That was the weakness of Persian infantry. Even the Immortals were armed with a short spear that couldn't compete with the pike of the plalanx, and all the armor they had was a shield made of wicker. That's why they got shredded by the heavily armored Greeks, with their bronze breastplates, helmets, and hoplons, or shields. The five months give the Greeks enough time to mass many forces in the north, and they drive back the Mongols, who simply can't operate well on rocky, uneven ground. When the Persians arrive, they get pawned much more easily than the Mongols were. You try charging into a wall, a literal THICKET, of bronze and iron tipped spears, three and four ranks deep, to reach the first man in the line. Back that up with skirmishers on the flanks and rear with slings, bows, and javalins, and this formation is hard to beat. Sorry, Ripper, but Greece takes this. You can't argue with Western military supremacy through the ages.

Mongols, took over asia, and whats in asia... GIGANTIC MOUTAINS :lol: ...ahhhhhh this is too much fun

oh and mongols, did not fight like 16th century europe, you know they didn't fight in straight lines. Their strategy was pretty much. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Life long training, planning, brutality, and even more chaos

The two main mountain ranges the Mongols had to deal with were the Himalayas, the Urals, and the Hindu Kush ranges. They went around all three. Most of Asia (check out a topographical map) is primarily flat, open steppe, from Russia down into China and the Middle East. And with the openness of Asia, they could simply fight AROUND a natural obstacle to get to the enemies behind it. Plus, most of the Asian and Eastern European enemies they fought were also cavalry, but weak in many places where the Mongols were rock hard strong.

Now, the only way into Greece, short of a naval invasion (the Mongols had no navy for most of their existance), is through the northern areas of the Baltic Peninsula. They would have to ride around the Black Sea and attack from the north. The Greek fighters are entirely different from most of the enemies the Mongols are used to fighting. They will proceed to bottle up all the narrow paths, passes, defiles, ravines, and valleys with the combined armies of all the city-states. THERE IS NO OPEN AREA IN NORTH GREECE. The are only extremely rugged mountains and a few rivers. If the Greeks keep them confined to narrow gaps, they will negate the maneuverability and speed that are the keystones of the Mongols. Don't get me wrong: I love the Mongols, and they are in my top five favorite armies of all time, behind the US, Greece, and maybe Rome, but I seriously doubt that they could punch through those mountains.

... but then again Khan was one crazy dude, who knows what he may have been capable of?

i have an off topic question for you, in your opinion why didn't the mongols, ever attack japan?

They did...twice. The first time, a fleet of about 300 ships sailed for Japan during the early reign of Kublai Khan. They managed to land, and while the samurai fought valiantly, they were being pushed back simply by the overwhelming numbers. Then, on the brink of defeat, a huge typhoon came in for a week or so and ravaged the fleet stationed in the Sea of Japan and near the shore, bashing them against the rocks and sinking a good chunk of it. The Mongols feared being stuck on the island, so they withdrew. The Japanese were convinced that their gods had sent this wind to save them from the invaders, and forever after called it "Kamikazie", or "Divine Wind". This name, which passed into legend in the history of Japan, reemerged as the name for the suicide pilots during WWII.

The second time, Kublai, determined to subdue the Japanese, sent a larger, 600 ship fleet with approximately 200,000 men to invade the Home Islands a second time. Again, if you can believe it, two separate storms banged up the fleet as it made the crossing, and the Japanese had been prepared for a second possible attack. When the already weakened Mongols landed, the Japanese massed at the landing areas and successfully drove the Mongols back to their ships repeated times. The Mongols couldn't make any headway after a few weeks, and Kublai withdrew before he lost even more forces. These two separate campaigns were huge financial and resource losses.

wow i never knew that, thank you for the information. I was kind of speaking of when they Ghengis Khan on their side, but that's quite a bit of interesting information either way

Yeah. Genghis got the conquering started, but they didn't reach their height until the reigns of Batu and Kublai Khan.

man o man if only Ghengis khan hadn't gotten the flu.

More importantly, and you can look this up, man, o man, if Batu Khan hadn't gotten an STD, then died from alcohol poisoning. If you read about it on Wikipedia or elsewheres, you'll see what I mean. ;) ;)

i imagine, the mongol empire, would have taken over all of asia, and all of europe as well

At their greatest extent, it extended almost from the Arctic to the Himilayas, from Saudi Arabia to Korea, from Poland to Cambodia. When Batu Khan died, the Mongols were readying for a large assault into Western Europe, at the Venician Empire, to be exact. His death recalled all commanders and generals back home so they could participate in the power struggle to follow. His premature death probably saved most of Europe, except for Britain and maybe Spain or the Scandinavian Peninsula, from Mongol attack and likely overrunning. They overwhelmed the Chinese, Arabic, and Russian kingdoms like it was child's play: I see no reason why the European states would have been any harder to defeat.

my thought exactly ;)

You could be my long lost brother, we think so much alike. But if you are my long lost brother, then chances are, every female within 500 miles will find you awesomely adorable and hot. Get what I'm sayin'?? B) B) B) B)

B) ... do i need to say more?

You've said too much already. B) B)

super_wolverine_Man - April 11, 2008 06:54 PM (GMT)
:ph43r:

Wingman - April 11, 2008 08:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM)
:ph43r:

Geez-louis, do you see the size of the post quote column? It's gigantic!!! That's the largest one I've ever seen!! This page is enormous!

super_wolverine_Man - April 12, 2008 02:44 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 08:02 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM)
:ph43r:

Geez-louis, do you see the size of the post quote column? It's gigantic!!! That's the largest one I've ever seen!! This page is enormous!

i know man

Wingman - April 12, 2008 03:12 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 12 2008, 10:44 AM)
QUOTE (Wingman @ Apr 11 2008, 08:02 PM)
QUOTE (super_wolverine_Man @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM)
:ph43r:

Geez-louis, do you see the size of the post quote column? It's gigantic!!! That's the largest one I've ever seen!! This page is enormous!

i know man

I was getting bored with our last topic, so I brought that up. :P :P B) B)




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