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The Den Signal!

 

 Gamefreak Vs. Reikken
Dragon Hellfire
Posted: May 22 2007, 05:07 PM


Custom titles used to be so much more fascinating
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Nintend-Fan's cousin is going to be going up against Reikken, one of the finest. Have fun dudes.

Gamefreak will start us off, each person gets three posts.


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Aetharsioll Koios - Mage, Level 1
Formerly: Delita, Zihark, Diagon Dragnier, Firebane, Dragon Hellfire
gamefreak
Posted: May 23 2007, 09:07 PM


the one and only
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well, i guess i'll start of with where they join


Lance joins chapter one, automatically. very easy, very simple. now that being said, as one of the first units acquired, that makes lance useful right away. Echidna on the other hand, joins in chapter 11a, as a prepromote.


time for stat expectations:

Lance:
HP: 53 Def: 15
Str: 20 Res: 9
Skl: 25 Luck: 15
Spd: 24 Con: 11
Rsc: 14

Echidna:
HP: 49 Def: 10
Str: 18 Res: 9
Skl: 22 Luck: 9
Spd: 22 Con: 9
Rsc: 8

Now it should be clear who the better unit is. Echidna doesnt win in a single stat! theyre tied in res but in everything else Echidna loses out to Lance.


Now if thats not obvious enough, i should mention that Lance is the best unit in the game. The Paladin has complete control over the weapon triangle, great MOV, and is able to rescue pretty much any unit in the map, not to mention being able to rescue and be rescued by units with higher con.

I dont think i need to say much more for now. short first post, but not a lot to say when its that obvious.

Plus --- green hair > blue hair


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user posted image
QUOTE (lol oxymoron)
<Zephiel> My computer heated up
<Zephiel> and froze
Reikken
Posted: May 25 2007, 01:49 PM


XTREME!!1
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QUOTE (gamefreak @ May 23 2007, 09:07 PM)
Lance:
    HP:  53            Def: 15
    Str: 20            Res:  9
    Skl: 25            Luck: 15
    Spd: 24          Con: 11
    Rsc: 14

Echidna:
    HP:  49            Def: 10
    Str: 18            Res:  9
    Skl: 22            Luck:  9
    Spd: 22          Con:  9
    Rsc:  8

Now it should be clear who the better unit is. Echidna doesnt win in a single stat! theyre tied in res but in everything else Echidna loses out to Lance.

lol, 20/20 stats.
I might as well compare their base stats.

Lance: 20 hp, 5 str, 6 skl, 8 spd, 2 lck, 6 def, 0 res
Echidna: 35 hp, 13 str, 19 skl, 18 spd, 6 lck, 8 def, 7 res

Omg, Lance doesn't win a single stat! On the contrary, he gets slaughtered.

Niether of these comparisons have much of any relevance to what you'll actually be seeing in the game. For what you'll actually see, I'll get to that in a bit. First, this:

QUOTE
Now if thats not obvious enough, i should mention that Lance is the best unit in the game. The Paladin has complete control over the weapon triangle, great MOV, and is able to rescue pretty much any unit in the map, not to mention being able to rescue and be rescued by units with higher con.

First of all, Lance doesn't join as a Paladin. He joins as a cavalier, and it takes quite a while before he becomes a Paladin.

Indeed he does have more move. However, do remember that he's also weak to horseslaying weapons and that effective weapons have 3x might in this game. Earlier on especially, he's often looking at a 1-hit kill. And he also has greater movement penalties from terrain.

Weapon triangle control? After the second weapon, the third isn't a big deal. At one weapon, you're neutral to one, good against one, and bad against one. Adding a second weapon makes you good against two and netural to one. That's quite an improvement. Adding a third would just finish off the last advantage and take up a space in my inventory with what's probably another basic weapon. Sure it's better, but the difference isn't too significant.



Now back to stats and junk.

By chapter 11, Lance should be level 14-15. Let's go with 15 since Echidna doesn't join until later in the chapter.

Lance, lv 15/0: 31.2 hp, 10.6 str, 12.3 skl, 15.0 spd, 6.9 lck, 8.8 def, 2.1 res
Echidna, 20/1: 35.0 hp, 13.0 str, 19.0 skl, 18.0 spd, 6.0 lck, 8.0 def, 7.0 res

Echidna pretty obviously wins
4 hp, 2-3 str, 7 skl, 3 spd, 5 res >>>>>>>>> 1 lck, 1 def


Later on, Lance promotes. However, he does face a problem. There's only one Knight Crest until you get to the secret shop that sells them, and there's about 7 units that use that to promote. Now, of course most of them aren't as good as Lance, so they're not as likely to get it, but with so many of them, there's a significant chance that one of them will be getting it instead. And then there's one, Alan, who's actually even better than Lance. He's even more likely to get it than Lance is. Lance is unlikely to get the Knight Crest, and even if he did get it, there would be the problem of making Alan have to wait.

Anywayz, stats are more or less the same until Lance promotes:

Lance, lv 20/1: 38.2 hp, 14.6 str, 16.5 skl, 19.4 spd, 8.6 lck, 11.8 def, 5.8 res
Echidna, 20/6: 38.8 hp, 14.5 str, 20.3 skl, 19.5 spd, 7.0 lck, 8.7 def, 7.7 res

Lance has 3 def and 1 lck, and Echidna has 4 skl and 2 res.
In most games, I'd say Lance is winning due to def > res, but in this game, weapons have lower hit, and enemies actually have avoid. Bosses on gates/thrones are especially hard to hit. So Echidna's skl lead is actually worth a good bit.
They're pretty close. No clear winner here.


And now at the end:

Lance, lv 20/10: 45.4 hp, 18.2 str, 20.6 skl, 23.4 spd, 11.8 lck, 13.6 def, 7.2 res
Echidna, 20/13: 44.0 hp, 16.6 str, 22.0 skl, 21.6 spd, 8.4 lck, 9.8 def, 8.8 res

Lance wins here
He has 1-2 hp, 1-2 str, 2 spd, 3 lck, and 4 def to Echidna's 1-2 skl and 1-2 res



Hmm. So it's early vs late? Indeed. Which is better? Well, we don't even have to argue that because there's one more thing. Lance's Knight Crest costs 10000 gold. That's quite a sum. Echidna doesn't need any such thing.
Winner: Echidna


--------------------
¯\(º_o)/¯
gamefreak
Posted: May 25 2007, 09:01 PM


the one and only
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QUOTE
lol, 20/20 stats.
I might as well compare their base stats.

Lance: 20 hp, 5 str, 6 skl, 8 spd, 2 lck, 6 def, 0 res
Echidna: 35 hp, 13 str, 19 skl, 18 spd, 6 lck, 8 def, 7 res

Omg, Lance doesn't win a single stat! On the contrary, he gets slaughtered.

well, first off, in trying to view what character is the best, it is necessary to look at their potential to be helpful, thus the 20/20 stats.

And the joining stats dont mean anything because lance is 1/0 and echidna is 20/1

QUOTE
First of all, Lance doesn't join as a Paladin. He joins as a cavalier, and it takes quite a while before he becomes a Paladin.


duh

QUOTE
Indeed he does have more move. However, do remember that he's also weak to horseslaying weapons and that effective weapons have 3x might in this game. Earlier on especially, he's often looking at a 1-hit kill. And he also has greater movement penalties from terrain.


horseslayer is definately a problem, but a problem with a simple solution: just dont send lance near horseslayer users. And later on, the fact that he is able to weild an ax give a very good chance of him avoiding the horseslayer

as for terrain, lance may get some penalties, but their is more open terrain than anything else, and in that regard lance will be able to be more useful than other units

QUOTE
Later on, Lance promotes. However, he does face a problem. There's only one Knight Crest until you get to the secret shop that sells them, and there's about 7 units that use that to promote. Now, of course most of them aren't as good as Lance, so they're not as likely to get it, but with so many of them, there's a significant chance that one of them will be getting it instead. And then there's one, Alan, who's actually even better than Lance. He's even more likely to get it than Lance is. Lance is unlikely to get the Knight Crest, and even if he did get it, there would be the problem of making Alan have to wait.


it is a dilemma that there is only one knights crest. however, it usually wont go to whos the most deserving, even though that plays a part, but it will go to whoever's ready first. Alan and Lance both have good stats. they come at the same chapter, and are the same unit. But early on, alan gets better strength stats and lance gets better speed and skill stats, giving him the ability to double attack. this will prove to be the more helpful of the 2 advantages and lance will, in turn, level faster than alan. So when its time to level someone up, lance will be ready. alan wont. he can wait and pay the 10000

QUOTE
Lance, lv 15/0: 31.2 hp, 10.6 str, 12.3 skl, 15.0 spd, 6.9 lck, 8.8 def, 2.1 res
Echidna, 20/1: 35.0 hp, 13.0 str, 19.0 skl, 18.0 spd, 6.0 lck, 8.0 def, 7.0 res

Echidna pretty obviously wins
4 hp, 2-3 str, 7 skl, 3 spd, 5 res >>>>>>>>> 1 lck, 1 def


true, echidna does win here, but you also have to factor in promotion bonuses. echidna, being promoted, should be about 2-3 lvls higher in every stat than lance. Not to mention she is 5 levels higher. heres the mercenary's promotional bonus that echidna would have received:

HP: +4 Def: +4
Str: +2 Res: +2
Skl: +1 Mov: +1
Spd: +2 Con: +1
Luc: +0 Rsc: +1

When factoring out her gained stats, heres the new comparison:
Lance, lvl 15/0: 31.2 hp, 10.6 str, 12.3 skl, 15.0 spd, 6.9 lck, 8.8 def, 2.1 res
Echidna, 20/0: 31.0 hp, 11.0 str, 18.0 skl, 16.0 spd, 6.0 lck, 4.0 def, 5.0 res

the skill stat is still much better than lance's, but the rest of the stats pretty much even out leaving us with:

6 skl, 1 spd, 3 res vs. 1 luck, 5 def

i'd still say a win for echidna, but a closer win at that. Of course, you could make the argument that this is illegitimate because echidna comes pre-promoted. She is, but i'm stating the reason her stats are better are because of promotional bonuses, not because she's a better character.

The stat growths they receive are another indication of why lance is a much better unit than echidna. it is obvious that lance has much better based on the information you've posted here. heres their gains:

5 levels for lance (15-20)
4.0 hp, 2.0 str, 2.2 skl, 2.4 spd, 1.7 lck, 1.0 def, 0.7 res

and thats with his promotional bonuses taken out with are as follows:
CODE

   HP:  +3            Def: +2
   Str: +2            Res: +3
   Skl: +2            Mov: +1
   Spd: +2           Con: +2
   Luc: +0            Rsc: -2


now here's echidna's growths for 5 levels (20/1-20/6)
3.8 hp, 1.5 str, 1.3 skl, 1.5 spd, 1.0 lck, 0.7 def, 0.7 res

a small win for lance, but a win none the less

QUOTE
Hmm. So it's early vs late? Indeed. Which is better? Well, we don't even have to argue that because there's one more thing. Lance's Knight Crest costs 10000 gold. That's quite a sum. Echidna doesn't need any such thing.


well, this would be a problem if lance need a second knight's crest. i've alredy gone over how lance is a more apt choice for the first knight's crest received. and though echidna doesnt need a promotional item, she's still a pain in the ass to recruit since you have to do it with lalum, an easy target from any enemy, you have to do it before echidna's overwhelmed by enemies, and you have to take the path of 11A, instead of a hassle-free auto-joiner, like lance : )
Winner: Lance


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user posted image
QUOTE (lol oxymoron)
<Zephiel> My computer heated up
<Zephiel> and froze
Reikken
Posted: May 26 2007, 02:10 AM


XTREME!!1
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Posts: 377
Member No.: 430
Joined: 21-May 07



QUOTE (gamefreak @ May 25 2007, 09:01 PM)
well, first off, in trying to view what character is the best, it is necessary to look at their potential to be helpful, thus the 20/20 stats.

How helpful a character is is determined by how much they actually help you, not by 20/20 stats.

QUOTE
horseslayer is definately a problem, but a problem with a simple solution: just dont send lance near horseslayer users.

That would cut out a bit of his versatility and therefore, usefulness.

QUOTE
And later on, the fact that he is able to weild an ax give a very good chance of him avoiding the horseslayer

Indeed. However, what is normally a very good chance becomes a not-so-good chance when the consequences are so severe.


QUOTE
it is a dilemma that there is only one knights crest. however, it usually wont go to whos the most deserving, even though that plays a part, but it will go to whoever's ready first. Alan and Lance both have good stats. they come at the same chapter, and are the same unit. But early on, alan gets better strength stats and lance gets better speed and skill stats, giving him the ability to double attack. this will prove to be the more helpful of the 2 advantages and lance will, in turn, level faster than alan. So when its time to level someone up, lance will be ready. alan wont. he can wait and pay the 10000

Lance does do more damage to the things the he can double and Alan cannot, but Alan does better against anything that's faster or slower than that range--the things that both can double and that both cannot. Which advantage is more helpful is certainly debatable. As close as it is, it doesn't much matter because, again, even when Lance does get the first Knight Crest, he's still making Alan have to stay unpromoted, which hurts your team overall.


QUOTE (a large section with a bunch of numbers)
true, echidna does win here, but you also have to factor in promotion bonuses. echidna, being promoted...
...
...but a win none the less

I don't really follow your logic here. It's stats that you have during the game--how well the character is actually doing--that matters. Not stats per level or something like that, which is rather meaningless.


QUOTE
well, this would be a problem if lance need a second knight's crest. i've alredy gone over how lance is a more apt choice for the first knight's crest received.

Ah, but even using the free Knight Crest costs you 10k as you could have used it on someone else, saving you having to buy another, or you could have sold it and then used the Silver Card to get 10k worth of other stuffs.


QUOTE
and though echidna doesnt need a promotional item, she's still a pain in the ass to recruit since you have to do it with lalum, an easy target from any enemy, you have to do it before echidna's overwhelmed by enemies, and you have to take the path of 11A, instead of a hassle-free auto-joiner, like lance : )
Winner: Lance

Even with Lalum's bad starting durability, it should be no problem as her low con means she can be rescued by anyone, even Echidna herself. Getting over there fast enough is also no problem because you have a full eight turns and face few enemies along the way, and you want to get over there quickly anyway so you can save the villages.
Sure, it's slightly more effort, but that's worth about as much as the weapon she comes with.


--------------------
¯\(º_o)/¯
gamefreak
Posted: May 26 2007, 12:12 PM


the one and only
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Joined: 17-April 06



QUOTE

QUOTE
How helpful a character is is determined by how much they actually help you, not by 20/20 stats.


true, but a character reaching 20/20 shows that they have been more helpful. and even though it might not be possible for echidna to reach this level, it is indeed possible for lance. His greater movement allows him to reach enemies faster, and therefore gaining more experience than the rest of the units.
QUOTE
Indeed. However, what is normally a very good chance becomes a not-so-good chance when the consequences are so severe.


the consequences would be severe if lance got hit with it. but that has a very slim chance of happening. even without the advancement of axes upon his promotion, lance with an iron lance can easily dodge the horseslayer. the reason is simple: the horseslayer, with a weight of 16, is the heaviest lance in the game. there are very few enemy unit that could wield it without some kind of stat-loss. and starting with an accuracy of 75%, chances to hit lance aren't very good. so there isnt really a problem, especially if lance has an ax.
QUOTE
Lance does do more damage to the things the he can double and Alan cannot, but Alan does better against anything that's faster or slower than that range--the things that both can double and that both cannot. Which advantage is more helpful is certainly debatable. As close as it is, it doesn't much matter because, again, even when Lance does get the first Knight Crest, he's still making Alan have to stay unpromoted, which hurts your team overall.


the majority of the enemy units in the game will have a speed in which lance can double and alan can't early on. with his higher strength, you're right, alan can do better against units that they can both double or both can't. however, in the case of an enemy that they both can't double, it is actually a tie. they'll get the same amount of experience, being that they cannot kill the enemy in one turn. so it ends up being lance's ability to double the majority of the units against alan's ability to double some of the units, but with more damage. hard to say which is better, but then you factor in that lance can double everyone alan can, giving him the clearcut advantage.

with the knight crest issue, which is worse for your team-leaving alan unpromoted, or leaving 2 knights unpromoted when one of them is ready to be? in hard mode, the promotion jump will have an immediate effect on the team. having lance promoted for 1-2 chapter before alan is ready is more helpful than having to wait for a slightly stronger paladin. so promoting lance first is actually more helpful to the team than not.
QUOTE
I don't really follow your logic here. It's stats that you have during the game--how well the character is actually doing--that matters. Not stats per level or something like that, which is rather meaningless.


the basis of what i was trying to say is that lance will surpass echidna because of his stronger stat gains. its like you said: a battle of early vs. late. but the battle isn't even close. because lance is helpful for the 11 chapter that echidna isn't even there for, and the later chapters when his ability surpass hers. so echidna can help more than lance, but only for a limited time. because in the later chapters, where there are stronger enemies, lance will have the stats necessary to help. echidna won't.
QUOTE
Ah, but even using the free Knight Crest costs you 10k as you could have used it on someone else, saving you having to buy another, or you could have sold it and then used the Silver Card to get 10k worth of other stuffs.


the 10000 is an inevitable cost. there are plenty of units who needs to promote regardless of whether you use the first one on alan or lance. and selling is it out of the question, because then you cant promote someone.
QUOTE
Even with Lalum's bad starting durability, it should be no problem as her low con means she can be rescued by anyone, even Echidna herself. Getting over there fast enough is also no problem because you have a full eight turns and face few enemies along the way, and you want to get over there quickly anyway so you can save the villages.
Sure, it's slightly more effort, but that's worth about as much as the weapon she comes with.


its easy enough to get there quickly, but not with all your units. the faster way is to rescue her with a cavalier *coughlancecough* and send him over alone. the problem with that is the act of recruiting echidna. sure, lalum is nice and safe while being rescued by someone, but she needs to be out for a turn before she can talk to echidna. in that time, even one attack from an enemy will most likely kill her. heres her base stats:
HP: 14 Def: 2
Str: 1 Res: 4
Skl: 2 Mov: 5
Spd: 11 Con: 4
Luc: 9 Rsc: 3

with 14 hp and 2 def, things dont look good for her. the safest way to recruit echidna is to take out all the enemies around her beforehand, so lalum is safe enough to talk. but by that time, echidna might have died from all the bandits that come up to the villages.

Winner: still lance


--------------------
user posted image
QUOTE (lol oxymoron)
<Zephiel> My computer heated up
<Zephiel> and froze
Reikken
Posted: May 27 2007, 01:24 AM


XTREME!!1
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Joined: 21-May 07



QUOTE (gamefreak @ May 26 2007, 12:12 PM)
true, but a character reaching 20/20 shows that they have been more helpful.
No, that just shows that they've gained alot of exp. You can baby someone to 20/20 having them pick off loads free kills or burn through all your high level staves, and that's pretty much the opposite of helpful.
QUOTE
and even though it might not be possible for echidna to reach this level, it is indeed possible for lance. His greater movement allows him to reach enemies faster, and therefore gaining more experience than the rest of the units.

Who cares about who can reach max level? It's unlikely that you'll be able to do this with anyone at all who doesn't join already almost maxed unless you deprive other characters of exp or arena abuse or something like that. And Echidna starts out at a higher level, so saying that she can't while Lance can sounds pretty crazy.
Yes, Lance's range is higher, but running off by himself where no one else can reach is usually not a good idea and leads to things like death, and then the chance of him being able to one-round the enemy he attacks is usually pretty low.


QUOTE
the consequences would be severe if lance got hit with it. but that has a very slim chance of happening. even without the advancement of axes upon his promotion, lance with an iron lance can easily dodge the horseslayer.

The consequences of him getting hit are severe. period. Yes, he can usually dodge, but say if there's a 10%, or even liek 3%, chance that you're going to die, are you taking it? I know I'm certainly not.

QUOTE
the reason is simple: the horseslayer, with a weight of 16, is the heaviest lance in the game. there are very few enemy unit that could wield it without some kind of stat-loss. and starting with an accuracy of 75%, chances to hit lance aren't very good. so there isnt really a problem, especially if lance has an ax.

Eh? Weapon weight doesn't do anything to hit.


QUOTE
the majority of the enemy units in the game will have a speed in which lance can double and alan can't early on.

That's definitely not true. Lance's speed lead on Alan is about 2, so that's a pretty small range. And to add to that, looking at enemies in the first several chapters, most of them have either about 8-12 AS or 0-2 AS

QUOTE
with his higher strength, you're right, alan can do better against units that they can both double or both can't. however, in the case of an enemy that they both can't double, it is actually a tie. they'll get the same amount of experience, being that they cannot kill the enemy in one turn.

Alan is more likely to be able to kill an enemy that has already been attacked, which is what's happening most of the time since one-rounding enemies is especially rare early-on.

And on enemies that they double, it's still hard to one-round them, but since Alan does more damage per hit, he starts one-rounding first.


QUOTE
with the knight crest issue, which is worse for your team-leaving alan unpromoted, or leaving 2 knights unpromoted when one of them is ready to be? in hard mode, the promotion jump will have an immediate effect on the team. having lance promoted for 1-2 chapter before alan is ready is more helpful than having to wait for a slightly stronger paladin. so promoting lance first is actually more helpful to the team than not.

1-2 chapters? Even if what you said about Lance being slightly better at gaining exp than Alan, which it's not, there's no way it's making so much difference that there's 1-2 chapters.

And making someone wait to promote is still a signicant hindrance to your team even if Lance does somehow reach 20 earlier. That doesn't magically make keeping someone unpromoted not matter.


QUOTE
the basis of what i was trying to say is that lance will surpass echidna because of his stronger stat gains. its like you said: a battle of early vs. late. but the battle isn't even close. because lance is helpful for the 11 chapter that echidna isn't even there for,

For those chapters that Lance is there and Echidna is not, yes, he's doing stuff, but he's also using up exp, which more or less cancels it out. It's why early joiners don't automatically beat those who join later simply because of joining earlier. And in most chapters, he's also even using up a unit slot.
Now, in cases like Marcus, where he's doing better than everyone else is, then yeah, his performance outweighs him using up exp and a unit slot.

QUOTE
and the later chapters when his ability surpass hers. so echidna can help more than lance, but only for a limited time. because in the later chapters, where there are stronger enemies, lance will have the stats necessary to help. echidna won't.

Okay, then. In earlier chapters, Lance doesn't have the stats necessary to help. Early on, enemies can even kill him in two, and later, three, hits, and it takes several hits for him to make the kill, so he definitely doesn't have the stats necessary to help. Then when Echidna joins, she's significantly better than him, so she has the stats necessary to help, and Lance doesn't. Then Lance promotes and catches up, so they're even. Then Lance slowly pulls ahead, and only then, does he start to become better.
Since the entire game matters, not just the end, Echidna > Lance.


QUOTE
the 10000 is an inevitable cost. there are plenty of units who needs to promote regardless of whether you use the first one on alan or lance. and selling is it out of the question, because then you cant promote someone.

Just because others need to promote as well doesn't change the fact that Lance uses up 10000 that Echidna doesn't.
Obviously you would only sell it if you didn't need it for anyone else.


QUOTE
its easy enough to get there quickly, but not with all your units.

I found it pretty easy to get everyone over there in time. 8 turns is a long time. I don't see what the problem is. It's not like there's tons of enemies blocking your way or anything. They're actually quite few in number until you get over there, where there's lots of them indeed.

QUOTE
sure, lalum is nice and safe while being rescued by someone, but she needs to be out for a turn before she can talk to echidna. in that time, even one attack from an enemy will most likely kill her.
She doesn't have to be up in front exposed to enemies before she moves in. On the turn before that, keep her behind ppls, like usual, and then next turn, she moves in to talk, and then you rescue her or whatever.


So yeah. Since the entire game matters, not just the end, and what you have to do for the characters also matters, like using up 10k, Echidna > Lance.


--------------------
¯\(º_o)/¯
Dragon Hellfire
Posted: May 27 2007, 01:36 AM


Custom titles used to be so much more fascinating
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First debate done ftw indeed. Voting time.


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Aetharsioll Koios - Mage, Level 1
Formerly: Delita, Zihark, Diagon Dragnier, Firebane, Dragon Hellfire
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