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Title: New gameplay concept


Hydrogen - December 18, 2008 05:54 PM (GMT)
I've been thinking of this new way of gameplay for a FE game. It's more about using existing traits in new ways. This is rather complicated but I'll try my best to explain it.

One important bit to it is the 3rd classes being you can only promote a character from 2nd to third class using a Promotion Item and the number of those is greatly limited say, only 5 or so around in the entire walkthrough. The point is that promoting someone to 3rd class is a strategy in itself and it's something that fits in the balance considering everything...

Since the stats "scale" will be far apart, like most units averaging seemingly low stats, strengths and weaknesses will be magnified. Because of this someone of 2nd class can still defeat another unit of 3rd class. For example a level 20 General is capable of defeating a level 10 Trueblade because he'll take minor damage from the Trueblade even if he has a Silver Sword, which gives this General time to take out this Trueblade assuming no criticals hit. The main point of promoting someone to third class is to make extended use of the chosen character's strengths.

Enemies can also have units of third class but most enemies are 2nd classes. About 1 in 3 enemies are fully promoted. It may not be a good idea to only have 3rd classes in your party (especially on the highest difficulty) because it's the type of play style that you need a lot of usable units instead of just a few overleveled ones.

I've also thought about a twist to the ReClassing that came in FE DS. Every character will have a "Weapon Specialization" and can only promote to classes that use that weapon. An example would be a Paladin Specializing in Swords can promote to Swordmaster, Hero and Nomadic Trooper while a Paladin Specializing in Spears can promote to Dracoknight, Halberdier and General. Specializing weapon may differ character to character but it's fixed, as in something that can't be changed. A character can only swap to the class that can use the weapon that character specializes.

Hope I explained it well enough. If not, feel free to ask any questions.

aznswordmaster1 - December 18, 2008 06:39 PM (GMT)
The 3rd promotion concept I found interesting, amplifying strengths and weak points. Though I don't know how it worked in Radiant Dawn though (still need to play that >_<). I dunno about the reclassing though, it would be pretty weird if you go from riding a horse to flying lizard all the sudden. :P

Hydrogen - December 18, 2008 07:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aznswordmaster1 @ Dec 18 2008, 01:39 PM)
The 3rd promotion concept I found interesting, amplifying strengths and weak points. Though I don't know how it worked in Radiant Dawn though (still need to play that >_<). I dunno about the reclassing though, it would be pretty weird if you go from riding a horse to flying lizard all the sudden. :P

Heh, I also find it weird for a Fighter can slim down to a Dark Mage. But ah well.

Exxucus - December 18, 2008 09:16 PM (GMT)
Limited promotion to third tier was used in the Japanese version of FE10, as you could only promote ~8-11 of your characters to 3rd tier. (So Sothe's auto-promo was useful)

If the weaknesses of each class is magnified upon promotion, is there much point in promoting, then?

aznswordmaster1 - December 18, 2008 09:31 PM (GMT)
Well you still have their strength's magnified, so if one unit excels better in one area better, I'm sure another one can cover for the other's weakness.

Myke - December 19, 2008 01:49 AM (GMT)
Third tiers are flawed in any form, really. At 20/20 there's already clear distinction between archetypes and min-maxing problems, 20/20/20 just increases that. Heavies overwhelm armours who take no damage from lights who can't be hit by heavies. It becomes a larger-scaled version of rock-paper-scissors with a 25% chance one of them will pull out their trump cardmaster skill and ignore the game's regular rules. Cavalry just all-around get dwarfed (one-hit by heavies, can't damage armours, can't hit lights) and mages/archers become literal glass cannons who can one-round any other unit before dying miserably.

Limiting the amount of third tiers wouldn't help much; then you'd have a distinct five characters who'd walk all over everything. There's no denying Fire Emblem favours one-man armies, a level 10 berserker being far more than a match for any number of level 20 myrmidons. I really can't see a level 20 general defeating a level 10 trueblade, on that same vein - even with lances, he'd have a 10-15% chance of hitting the trueblade and the trueblade's raised strength cap with a silver sword would give him 41 attack: far greater than a general's 30 defense cap. (Eddie averages 31 str, Zihark 28 and Stefan 28 so we'll call that 29+12 might from silver sword)

Throw onto that a massive critical rate and an astra chance, and there's really no way a general could win =/

Hydrogen - December 19, 2008 05:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Myke @ Dec 18 2008, 08:49 PM)
Third tiers are flawed in any form, really. At 20/20 there's already clear distinction between archetypes and min-maxing problems, 20/20/20 just increases that. Heavies overwhelm armours who take no damage from lights who can't be hit by heavies. It becomes a larger-scaled version of rock-paper-scissors with a 25% chance one of them will pull out their trump cardmaster skill and ignore the game's regular rules. Cavalry just all-around get dwarfed (one-hit by heavies, can't damage armours, can't hit lights) and mages/archers become literal glass cannons who can one-round any other unit before dying miserably.

Limiting the amount of third tiers wouldn't help much; then you'd have a distinct five characters who'd walk all over everything. There's no denying Fire Emblem favours one-man armies, a level 10 berserker being far more than a match for any number of level 20 myrmidons. I really can't see a level 20 general defeating a level 10 trueblade, on that same vein - even with lances, he'd have a 10-15% chance of hitting the trueblade and the trueblade's raised strength cap with a silver sword would give him 41 attack: far greater than a general's 30 defense cap. (Eddie averages 31 str, Zihark 28 and Stefan 28 so we'll call that 29+12 might from silver sword)

Throw onto that a massive critical rate and an astra chance, and there's really no way a general could win =/

This is why it's a [I]concept{/I]. Meaning it's an idea so far. The stats scales have the be made just right in order for the idea to work. Yes, it is supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors styled gameplay in balance of course. As I said, the idea is that using only 5 fully promoted characters won't be enough, it shouldn't be, at least.

The stats are not scaled like RD at all.
I'm gauging the scale like so

Max Level 3rd class:
Str, Mgc, Skl, Sp, Def, Res
CODE
*     11-16
**    17-22
***   23-28
****  29-34
***** 35-40

This is what I mean by the stats scale being far apart which means that the differences or stats in the classes are bigger which magnifies strengths and weaknesses. The rock-paper-scissor on a bigger scale.
The Myrmidon line has ** in Strength while the Armor line has ***** in Defense.
A Trueblade has 6 for Base Strength, 20% Str Growth (57 level-ups for being 20/20/20)
Right then. (57*0.2)+6=17.4 Str at 20/20/20 which falls in ** category
A Marshall has 18 for Base Defense, 30% Def Growth (57 level-ups for being 20/20/20)
Right then. (57*0.2)+18=35.1 Def at 20/20/20 which falls in ***** category

How much Strength will a level 10 Trueblade have?
19+19+9=47 levels
(47*0.2)+6=15 Str
Now what about a level 20 General? I'll take the General Class Base Stat as 15
(38*0.3)+15=26 Def
The General has 11 Defense more than the Trueblade's Strength.

We've come to name the promo of Berserker "Crusher" level 10 vs. Swordmaster level 20
SM lv.20 -> 26 SP & SKL
CR lv.10 -> 20 SP & SKL
Silver Axe here will have 60 HIT. The CR has 38 HIT on the SM. Because the third classes have 80 HP max, the Silver Axe will have 18 MT and the Silver Sword 16 MT
SM -> 12 STR + 16 MT + 1 (Trinity Bonus) -> 29 ATK
CR -> 10 DEF
The Swordmaster will do 19 Damage in one well-placed stroke. The Crusher has 64 HP and if you do the math, the Swordmaster needs 4 strokes to finish the job with 14.4% chance of getting killed since the Crusher needs to hit the SM twice.

So, what's the point of promoting a character to third teir? Continued growths would make the unit more versatile with other units he normally has neutral chance with and becomes even deadlier with classes he normally has the advantage with. Which you choose to promote to third class is up to you.




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