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Title: About the whole Laura being in top tier thing
Description: I just remembered something.


Beta-Kraid - December 21, 2007 09:56 PM (GMT)
Micaiah can heal durring part one, too. =X

Maybe not with staves.

But it's still healing.

She may get one-rounded after she heals, but hey- Laura doesn't have to be low on HP to be one-rounded. It doesn't matter how much HP she has. She's still gonna be one-rounded by everything, so the fact that Micky has to use her own HP to do it doesn't make much of a difference.

Zephiel - December 21, 2007 10:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 21 2007, 04:56 PM)
Micaiah can heal durring part one, too. =X

Maybe not with staves.

But it's still healing.

She may get one-rounded after she heals, but hey- Laura doesn't have to be low on HP to be one-rounded. It doesn't matter how much HP she has. She's still gonna be one-rounded by everything, so the fact that Micky has to use her own HP to do it doesn't make much of a difference.

I agree. I never use Laura...ever. You can't send her out into the battle for emergency healing unless she can counterattack, which she cannot anyway with staves. Her speed is low so she usually is doubled even if the first shot misses her. IMO Rhys > Laura, but even Mist can get twice as good with the extra MOV upon promotion.

Reikken - December 21, 2007 10:28 PM (GMT)
lolwtf @ the idea of Laura being top tier
low move, gets doubled by nearly everything, and gets one-shotted by nearly everything
Maybe her growths might make her not suck later on, but getting there is the problem, and she sucks beforehand. Vulneraries heal 20 and have 8 uses, and Micaiah can heal ppls, making staves completely nonessential, and you don't really get any staves that do anything but heal hp at 1 range until Micaiah can use staves as well, and Laura dies when sneezed on, so you have to keep her completely out of enemy range at all times, so she's not good at all.


...And if you have a response to me, don't expect me to respond to you for a while since I'm about to be gone for a while. Like right now.

Beta-Kraid - December 21, 2007 10:56 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Reikken @ Dec 21 2007, 05:28 PM)
lolwtf @ the idea of Laura being top tier
low move, gets doubled by nearly everything, and gets one-shotted by nearly everything
Maybe her growths might make her not suck later on, but getting there is the problem, and she sucks beforehand. Vulneraries heal 20 and have 8 uses, and Micaiah can heal ppls, making staves completely nonessential, and you don't really get any staves that do anything but heal hp at 1 range until Micaiah can use staves as well, and Laura dies when sneezed on, so you have to keep her completely out of enemy range at all times, so she's not good at all.


...And if you have a response to me, don't expect me to respond to you for a while since I'm about to be gone for a while. Like right now.

If you're thinking that it was my idea, it wasn't. It was Solid's, IIRC. He said she should be up there since she's the only healer durring part one. I'm contradicting it here by saying she isn't, since Micaiah has sacrifice.

And since Reikken says so, it must be right. :o

bai.

Inui - December 22, 2007 02:26 AM (GMT)
Laura is horrible, but not bottom tier.

Beta-Kraid - December 22, 2007 05:12 PM (GMT)
After finally finding the thread where he said it, I've found that Solid actually did counter this fact. X.X

But I'm still not agreeing with him. Cai healing someone won't waste a turn since she won't be attacking every turn anyway. She'll be behind the lines finishing of an enemy every now and then, nuking bosses with Thani, and using sacrifice for her experience.

Nincaiah - December 22, 2007 08:29 PM (GMT)
Micaiah can only heal every other turn, since she'll need to use Herbs or Vulneraries to replenish her HP to heal more, which your other units could've just done themselves, making the whole process rather pointless.

Also, she deals high damage to enemies; more than any of your other unpromoted units, with her ridiculous MAG, so she's better off attacking.

Laura can heal _every_ turn without losing her own HP. Sure, she gets one-rounded, but so does Micaiah after using Sacrifice.

I'm not seeing it.

Sety - December 22, 2007 08:34 PM (GMT)
She gets one rounded until she levels up once or twice.

Nincaiah - December 22, 2007 08:47 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sety @ Dec 22 2007, 03:34 PM)
She gets one rounded until she levels up once or twice.

A. Who?
B. No matter how high of a level Micaiah is, if she has less than 10 HP, she's getting one-rounded. Which she will, after Sacrificing.

Beta-Kraid - December 22, 2007 10:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sety @ Dec 22 2007, 03:34 PM)
She gets one rounded until she levels up once or twice.

If you mean Laura, not rly.

After six levels, she'll have these stats:

HP 18.7 Str 4.2 Mag 12.2 Skl 7.2 Spd 9.2 Lck 11 Def 3.2 Res 12.1

I have an NM file on the first part of chapter six right now. With those stats(if HP was rounded up, and ONLY then), I counted only three out of 13 weapon users at the start of the map that couldn't one-round her.

@Nin: She doesn't deal ridiculous amounts of damage because she'll never be doubling. Laura can't always heal because if she's let anywhere near the action, she'll be dead, period.

And yes, just using the healing item yourself is often more efficient. I'm just pointing this out.

Nincaiah - December 22, 2007 10:33 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 05:29 PM)
@Nin: She doesn't deal ridiculous amounts of damage because she'll never be doubling. Laura can't always heal because if she's let anywhere near the action, she'll be dead, period.

lol, neither does anyone else that isn't promoted, so the point still stands.

Seriously, she's on of the best attackers available to you, especially in Hard Mode. Using her to heal is wasting 2 turns that she could have been attacking for.

She can't heal near enemies either, since she'll be subsequently weakened and will be one-rounded. So you can't use that argument against Laura.

Beta-Kraid - December 22, 2007 11:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 22 2007, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 05:29 PM)
@Nin: She doesn't deal ridiculous amounts of damage because she'll never be doubling. Laura can't always heal because if she's let anywhere near the action, she'll be dead, period.

lol, neither does anyone else that isn't promoted, so the point still stands.

Seriously, she's on of the best attackers available to you, especially in Hard Mode. Using her to heal is wasting 2 turns that she could have been attacking for.

She can't heal near enemies either, since she'll be subsequently weakened and will be one-rounded. So you can't use that argument against Laura.

Edward, Jill, Ilyana and Nolan? >:/

She'll not only not double for the first few chapters, she won't double at any point durring part one.

I know Micaiah can't survive after healing either, I already pointed that out. My point is that Laura isn't that much better a healer than her, and that there's no way she could be top tier.

Nincaiah - December 22, 2007 11:49 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 22 2007, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 05:29 PM)
@Nin: She doesn't deal ridiculous amounts of damage because she'll never be doubling. Laura can't always heal because if she's let anywhere near the action, she'll be dead, period.

lol, neither does anyone else that isn't promoted, so the point still stands.

Seriously, she's on of the best attackers available to you, especially in Hard Mode. Using her to heal is wasting 2 turns that she could have been attacking for.

She can't heal near enemies either, since she'll be subsequently weakened and will be one-rounded. So you can't use that argument against Laura.

Edward, Jill, Ilyana and Nolan? >:/

She'll not only not double for the first few chapters, she won't double at any point durring part one.

I know Micaiah can't survive after healing either, I already pointed that out. My point is that Laura isn't that much better a healer than her, and that there's no way she could be top tier.

Nolan never doubles. After chapter 3, neither does Ilyana. Jill and Eddie do so semi-reliably, but they have lower STR stats, so Micaiah still does more damage anyway, and her accuracy is h4x, while Jill's isn't, and Eddie can't hit reliably with WTD.

She doesn't need to double to deal massive damage. So yes, you want her attacking, not healing.

Beta-Kraid - December 23, 2007 01:47 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 22 2007, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 22 2007, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 22 2007, 05:29 PM)
@Nin: She doesn't deal ridiculous amounts of damage because she'll never be doubling. Laura can't always heal because if she's let anywhere near the action, she'll be dead, period.

lol, neither does anyone else that isn't promoted, so the point still stands.

Seriously, she's on of the best attackers available to you, especially in Hard Mode. Using her to heal is wasting 2 turns that she could have been attacking for.

She can't heal near enemies either, since she'll be subsequently weakened and will be one-rounded. So you can't use that argument against Laura.

Edward, Jill, Ilyana and Nolan? >:/

She'll not only not double for the first few chapters, she won't double at any point durring part one.

I know Micaiah can't survive after healing either, I already pointed that out. My point is that Laura isn't that much better a healer than her, and that there's no way she could be top tier.

Nolan never doubles. After chapter 3, neither does Ilyana. Jill and Eddie do so semi-reliably, but they have lower STR stats, so Micaiah still does more damage anyway, and her accuracy is h4x, while Jill's isn't, and Eddie can't hit reliably with WTD.

She doesn't need to double to deal massive damage. So yes, you want her attacking, not healing.

Nolan doubles all the time. Just not in chapter one, when he's being weighed down by that Steel Axe.

Ilyana still doubles most enemies for a while- the majority of part one anyway, from my experience. And no, I don't mean the whole "OMG PERSINEL EXPERIENS LOL" thing- her Spd was always close to her average in this experience of mine.

Eddo's Str is fine- just not in the first few chapters. He has a 60% growth in it. If you use him regularly, he'll be just fine in no time.

Jill uses axes. She'll be doing damage just fine.

Cai is a good attacker for the first few chapters, and ONLY that. It won't be long before everyone else's Spd will start increasing- that won't happen to her.

Sety - December 23, 2007 02:21 AM (GMT)
I haven't actually played yet, lol. I'm going off of what other people have said >_>

Dragon Hellfire - December 23, 2007 04:55 AM (GMT)
Wtf@this entire debaet

Micaiah does not need to be the best, or even good for spending her turns attacking > spending her turns healing. Laura _allows_ you to get another offensive unit, and a _better_ healer. Whether or not Micaiah is good or not, it doesn't matter, for she's always in play.

Without Laura:
Micaiah heals once, vulneraries once

With Laura:
Micaiah attacks
Laura heals, Laura Heals again (Laura is a better healer)

This allows you to get _more_ healing done, and have another attacker with equivalent offense to Micaiah. Which makes sense, because it _is_ Micaiah. What does this prove? Micaiah _can't_ be better than Laura. Laura being on the team gives the team all of the offensive pros of Micaiah, as well as giving it the defensive pro of better healing.

Zephiel - December 23, 2007 01:02 PM (GMT)
I always hated the logic that is if there's only one healer in a part, it's top tier. Sure he/she will be used for most of if not all of the battles, but saying Laura is top tier because she's the only healer is like saying Rafiel is top tier because he's the only heron or Jill is top tier because she's the only flier.

Nincaiah - December 23, 2007 03:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Dragon Hellfire @ Dec 22 2007, 11:55 PM)
Wtf@this entire debaet

Micaiah does not need to be the best, or even good for spending her turns attacking > spending her turns healing. Laura _allows_ you to get another offensive unit, and a _better_ healer. Whether or not Micaiah is good or not, it doesn't matter, for she's always in play.

Without Laura:
Micaiah heals once, vulneraries once

With Laura:
Micaiah attacks
Laura heals, Laura Heals again (Laura is a better healer)

This allows you to get _more_ healing done, and have another attacker with equivalent offense to Micaiah. Which makes sense, because it _is_ Micaiah. What does this prove? Micaiah _can't_ be better than Laura. Laura being on the team gives the team all of the offensive pros of Micaiah, as well as giving it the defensive pro of better healing.

Thank you, this is what I've been trying to say the entire time.

@Zeph: Unlike fliers and herons, you _need_ a healer if you want to survive.

Jaffar - December 23, 2007 05:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 23 2007, 10:23 AM)
QUOTE (Dragon Hellfire @ Dec 22 2007, 11:55 PM)
Wtf@this entire debaet

Micaiah does not need to be the best, or even good for spending her turns attacking > spending her turns healing. Laura _allows_ you to get another offensive unit, and a _better_ healer. Whether or not Micaiah is good or not, it doesn't matter, for she's always in play.

Without Laura:
Micaiah heals once, vulneraries once

With Laura:
Micaiah attacks
Laura heals, Laura Heals again (Laura is a better healer)

This allows you to get _more_ healing done, and have another attacker with equivalent offense to Micaiah. Which makes sense, because it _is_ Micaiah. What does this prove? Micaiah _can't_ be better than Laura. Laura being on the team gives the team all of the offensive pros of Micaiah, as well as giving it the defensive pro of better healing.

Thank you, this is what I've been trying to say the entire time.

@Zeph: Unlike fliers and herons, you _need_ a healer if you want to survive.

Um...no.

I played through part 1 hard mode without Laura. So, no. You do NOT need a healer.

Sety - December 23, 2007 08:14 PM (GMT)
Yeah, and it took you how many turns?

Ramen Man - December 23, 2007 08:52 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sety @ Dec 23 2007, 03:14 PM)
Yeah, and it took you how many turns?

Mega Man 7 B|

Maraj - December 23, 2007 09:13 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sety @ Dec 23 2007, 01:14 PM)
Yeah, and it took you how many turns?

FE10 Vulneraries >>>>

Beta-Kraid - December 24, 2007 12:39 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Maraj @ Dec 23 2007, 04:13 PM)
QUOTE (Sety @ Dec 23 2007, 01:14 PM)
Yeah, and it took you how many turns?

FE10 Vulneraries >>>>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

@DH: I know Laura is a better healer; I'm just saying that I forgot about this, and that it technically means that Laura isn't the only one. I was debating with Nin on wheather Micaiah was one of your best attackers. That's all.

However, I still say Laura phails with a capital P...or at least compared to what she's made out to be. Being useful but not essential for five or six chapters and almost useless the rest of the game=/=Top tier.

@Nin: No, you don't need a healer. Not even close. This game's Vulneraries are just too powerful and abundant. In, say, the second stage of chapter six, it's probably easier without her. Losing a unit for one turn>Losing a unit permanently, which is what's gonna happen when you try to work unpromoted Laura into an offensive stratagy.

Nincaiah - December 24, 2007 12:43 AM (GMT)
I've never had trouble protecting Laura, ever. Not even in 1-6-2. Not even in Hard Mode.

*shot for personal experience*

Also, funds are tight in this game. You can't go blowing all your funds on excess Vulneraries, which you already consume a good amount of /with/ 1 and a half (lol Micaiah) healers.

Dragon Hellfire - December 24, 2007 12:45 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 23 2007, 03:39 PM)
@DH: I know Laura is a better healer; I'm just saying that I forgot about this, and that it technically means that Laura isn't the only one.

Oh? Well then you're going to have to explain why that's a strike against Laura. At all.

Beta-Kraid - December 24, 2007 12:49 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nincaiah @ Dec 23 2007, 07:43 PM)
I've never had trouble protecting Laura, ever. Not even in 1-6-2. Not even in Hard Mode.

*shot for personal experience*

D=

QUOTE
Also, funds are tight in this game. You can't go blowing all your funds on excess Vulneraries, which you already consume a good amount of /with/ 1 and a half (lol Micaiah) healers.

Only in part three. Don't you get liek 13K in chapter four?

And you hardly even need to buy them. By chapter six, you'll have six Vulneraries- that's 48 uses in total. There are plenty of them to steal, too.

QUOTE
Oh? Well then you're going to have to explain why that's a strike against Laura. At all.

I don't recall ever saying that it was.

...Although, an injured Cai isn't exactly any harder to protect than an unpromoted Laura.

Edit: Math screw-up. =P

Dragon Hellfire - December 24, 2007 01:06 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 23 2007, 03:49 PM)
QUOTE
Oh? Well then you're going to have to explain why that's a strike against Laura. At all.

I don't recall ever saying that it was.

Then explain this topic.

Beta-Kraid - December 24, 2007 01:13 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Dragon Hellfire @ Dec 23 2007, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE (Beta-Kraid @ Dec 23 2007, 03:49 PM)
QUOTE
Oh? Well then you're going to have to explain why that's a strike against Laura. At all.

I don't recall ever saying that it was.

Then explain this topic.

QUOTE (me)
...an injured Cai isn't exactly any harder to protect than an unpromoted Laura.


...Okay, maybe I did say it was. Whatever.

I guess I could have been more clear about it, but I mainly wanted a discussion about wheather Laura was top tier or not. Sorry for not being clear enough.

Reikken - December 25, 2007 12:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
This allows you to get _more_ healing done, and have another attacker with equivalent offense to Micaiah. Which makes sense, because it _is_ Micaiah. What does this prove? Micaiah _can't_ be better than Laura. Laura being on the team gives the team all of the offensive pros of Micaiah, as well as giving it the defensive pro of better healing.

"Micaiah _can't_ be better than Laura" *at healing

I really hope that's what you meant...

Anyway, healing with Laura instead of using a Vulnerary or Micaiah allows that unit to attack instead of heal, making her about as well off as any other unit. However, she has the problem of being extremely frail and unable to counterattack, so she's worse than most of the other units. And you're not always attacking. Very often that unit that needs healing can't safely reach (after being healed) any enemies, or all enemies that unit can safely reach that turn can be killed by other units, so she very often doesn't allow another attack. She's among the worst units in part 1. What Inui said.

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 12:19 AM (GMT)
I was debating Laura > Micaiah. And that didn't really prove anything in that case. >__>;;

Anyway, healing with Micaiah instead of using a Vulnerary or Laura or attacking allows that unit to attack instead of heal, making her about as well off as any other unit. However, she now has the problem of being extremely frail and unable to counterattack, so she's worse than most of the other units. And you're not always attacking. Very often that unit that needs healing can't safely reach (after being healed) any enemies, or all enemies that unit can safely reach that turn can be killed by other units, so she very often doesn't allow another attack. She's among the worst units in part 1. What Inui said.

Reikken - December 25, 2007 12:24 AM (GMT)
Hm? What are you trying to say?
That looks like you're saying "If Micaiah only had Sacrifice, Laura would be better than her." It's rather pointless, but I don't disagree.

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 12:30 AM (GMT)
...so you're entire defense relies on the time that there would be no units to heal?

Reikken - December 25, 2007 12:34 AM (GMT)
I really don't understand what you're trying to say. My defense? In the game or in this argument? And... "relies on the time that there would be no units to heal" ?

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 12:40 AM (GMT)
Well Micaiah would only be better if there were no units to heal, right?

Reikken - December 25, 2007 12:47 AM (GMT)
Uh? No, not at all. Even if there was a unit that NEEDED a heal every turn, Micaiah is still very easily better. Even if you take away Sacrifice, she's an above average attacker, already making her better than Laura, and then she's better defensively and can counterattack. Then add Sacrifice, which just makes her win even more.

Then go back to reality where units don't absolutely need healing every turn, and widen the gap between them even more.

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 12:59 AM (GMT)
What does Micaiah do when she needs to heal? What does Laura do when she needs to heal? What do you do when you have both?

Reikken - December 25, 2007 01:08 AM (GMT)
Micaiah rarely ever needs to heal since she's a frail backliner and all. She rarely gets attacked in the first place, and even once she does, she doesn't need healing until she's put in that situation again. Anyway, to answer your question, she uses a Vulnerary/Herb.

Or do you mean when she needs to heal others? She never needs to heal others. Vulneraries and Herbs can do that.

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 01:09 AM (GMT)
You're really, really dancing around the point.

Reikken - December 25, 2007 01:11 AM (GMT)
Am I? What's the point, then?

Dragon Hellfire - December 25, 2007 01:28 AM (GMT)
What does Micaiah do when she needs to heal?
-She uses sacrifice so a better unit can attack instead of her, causing her durability to wtfail against anything and everything. This also restricts her next round because she needs to heal herself. This also means that if there's another unit that needs healing when she isn't fit to do so, they LOSE ALL OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES.

What does Laura do when she needs to heal?
-She uses her staff, and her durability stays quite poor, although not as bad as Micaiah. She is not restricted next round, so she can heal _again_ in the case that one of your good offensive units still needs healing letting them KEEP ALL OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES. So when units need to heal, Laura is better offensively and defensively than Micaiah. And that amount of time drastically outweighs the amount of time that no units need to heal. However, that's nto all, the time that no units need to heal also includes time when _you aren't being attacked, and you aren't attacking_. No matter which way you slice it, doing nothing = doing nothing.




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