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Title: Bizox vs Jeigan


Inui - December 8, 2007 04:59 AM (GMT)
JEIGAN IS THE BEST DEBAETR EVER

Bizox - December 11, 2007 03:28 AM (GMT)
k, we have Gilliam. He's this green tank thing with sick spiky hair. Then there's Garcia. Old, fat, and fathered that Ross thing. Simple enough.

Gilliam charges in, his tankity self, in Chapter One, taking minimal damage from those big, bad soldiers. Whether you send him towards the gate or you let him hang back and handle the reinforcements, he eats those soldiers alive and gets him some early experience.

He tanks on to chapter Two, where he's not involved in the recruitment process of Ross and Garcia, so he can go ahead and start clearing the map. Garcia, on the other hand, eats at least some experience no matter what, and being Garcia, is probably involved in some way with the 'recruitment of Ross and Garcia' scenario. Once all of that **** is over with, and Garcia's actually recruited, you can either waste another turn of Vanessa's, a clearly better unit, to rescue Garcia and take him to the frontlines, and possibly another still to drop him, or someone else's to take/drop him, all to get a mediocre, fatass unit up to the frontlines, *breathes* -OR-, you could just leave Garcia alone this chapter and let other clearly better units get the experience. Then you've got Bone, which, if you add an 'r' to his name, that describes what Bone has for Gilliam's awesomeness. No wonder, because Gilliam has WTA over him, Gilliam has massive DEF against Bone's wimpy Iron Sword. Gilliam will proceed to rape Bone. Well, then again, Bone might even give consent according to previous context. ANYWAYS, Garcia has WTD and low hit due to that, mediocre defense, and halfdecent speed, so he could be hit for moderate damage with high consistency. On the other hand, Garcia might not even hit when he attacks Bone. Garcia isn't getting the free boss level up this chapter, while Gilliam is at least a sensible choice. %::%

Gilliam's early combat utility and Garcia's lack thereof leads to a level lead of 2 or 3. Combat statz~

Gilliam (Lv7 Knight with Iron Lance)
17.4 atk, 3.9 AS, 95.7 hit, 3.3 crit - - 11.7 avo, 27.7 hp, 10.7 def, 3.6 res, 3.9 critavo

Garcia (Lv4 Fighter with Iron Axe)
16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 90.3 hit, 3.3 crit - - 17.0 avo, 28.0 hp, 5.0 def, 1.0 res, 3.0 critavo

Gilliam's got Garcia beat in atk, hit, and all defensive categories, sans HP, which isn't necessarily defensive anyways. 27.7 = 28 70% of the time anyways. <<; Gilliam's got the AS to not be doubled by stronger enemies and to double weighed down enemies. Garcia has a slim lead in avoid, which matters little when Gilliam's just taking every hit for little to no damage. Then they both have minimal crit, at 3.3. Gilliam's got a level lead that'll last and more total growths (295 v. 285), meaning that Gilliam's growths will eventually overcome Garcia's solid bases, even if the level lead didn't exist.

HAY LETS SKIP TO PROMOTION SHALL WE NOW WE'RE OFF DOWN THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD k it's safe to say that Gilliam promotes a little earlier. Weapon triangle balance is actually somewhat existent in this game, so Garcia having axes would make him truly GARcia in FE7 or FE6, but this is FE8, where he is just Garcia, not GARcia. So Gilliam's level lead will not diminish significantly due to Garcia not getting extra kills due to Garcia not having ridiculous WTA throughout the game due to Intelligent Systems growing half a brain due to their failures in previous games when it came to weapon triangle balance for the enemies due to their desire to spam lance-using units since they're so ridiculously generic due to lance-using pplz appearing commonly as castle guards and soldiers throughout medieval history due to their ability to strike from a distance without being projectiles due to the genius that created the weapon due to him being born due to an itch in his father's pants due to human instinct due to... Evolution, or God or something. But yeah, you get the idea.

Gilliam will promote to GK for the extra movement, and suddenly that's not a disadvantage. Hell, he could promote early, because he needs the extra movement so damn badly. A level 10-15 promotion isn't out of the question. There's so much reason for Gilliam to promote early. WTC, 2 move, that all adds up to massive rape. There's little to no reason for Garcia to promote early, he might as well stay unpromoted until 20. So Gilliam even has promotion bonuses early on Garcia now. Remember the weapon triangle balance that exists moreso in this game than in others? That makes it pretty damn awesome for Gilliam to have WTC then, isn't it? :DD Here's the scenario now, with Gilliam promoting early. Given a B support with each other. <<;

Gilliam Lv15/1 GK
(Steel Axe)
28.0 atk, 7.3 AS, 94.5 hit, 15.2 crit - - 32.9 avo, 37.9 hp, 18.1 def, 7.2 res, 11.3 critavo
(Killer Lance)
27.0 atk, 8.3 AS, 99.5 hit, 45.1 crit - - 32.9 avo, 37.9 hp, 18.1 def, 7.2 res, 11.3 critavo
(Iron Sword)
22.0 atk, 8.3 AS, 119.5 hit, 15.2 crit - - 32.9 avo, 37.9 hp, 18.1 def, 7.2 res, 11.3 critavo

Garcia Lv12 Fiter
25.2 atk, 8.6 AS, 93.3 hit, 44.9 crit - - 33.4 avo, 34.4 hp, 8.0 def, 3.2 res, 11.2 critavo

Gilliam's evened up in speed and avoid, and basically beats him everywhere else with at least one weapon. If he needs the crit, he can use the Kilr Lance. If he needs the hit and nothing else, he can use the wimpy sword. If he needs the big hit, he can use the steel axe. Garcia can't even hold a candle to Gilliam at this point. His speed used to be a significant advantage, but at this point, look at the growths: Gilliam has 30% speed, Garcia has 20%. The speed will eventually work in Gilliam's favor, but will essentially parallel for the rest of the game, edge going to Gilliam due to +15 avoid for WTC. Garcia's got his 65% strength growth, but that's really all he's got on Gilliam. Whether you promote Garcia early or at 20, Garcia gains A BIG BAD 1 strength in promotion and, with Gilliam's solid 45% growth in strength, will only gain 1 strength point on Gilliam per 5 levels. STR won't be a major asset for Garcia; He'll not have that much more than Gilliam.

Supports matter little here, seeing as they have a solid support with each other, B or A. Full DEF, AVO, and CEVA make Gilliam just about invincible. It helps Garcia, but he's still taking damage, while at this point, Gilliam's taking almost none. Garcia might have other options, but Ross requires EXPERIENCE SOUP THROUGH A STRAW for the WHOLE GAME to be effective, so he's not likely to be fielded anyways. Neimi has Colm and Artur, better options than Garcia. So they're both fairly likely to have just an A with each other, perhaps with a lategame support with Syrene for Gilliam. Supports don't really help either of these d00dz.

so yeah, Gilliam is a GREEN TANK with BLACK HAIR, Garcia is a fatass ***-bag. The end.

Full Def and Avo makes Gilliam liek invinziblz, and it benefits the other units solidly.

Jeigan - December 14, 2007 07:32 PM (GMT)
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k, we have Gilliam. He's this green tank thing with sick spiky hair. Then there's Garcia. Old, fat, and fathered that Ross thing. Simple enough.


D:

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Gilliam charges in, his tankity self, in Chapter One, taking minimal damage from those big, bad soldiers. Whether you send him towards the gate or you let him hang back and handle the reinforcements, he eats those soldiers alive and gets him some early experience.


hehe I never imagined I would see the words "big bad soldiers" together, in a FE debaet. Unfortunately for Gilliam those soldiers are actually challenging opponents, because he can't double with 3 speed. Furthermore, Gilliam has phail move and starts at the north, while he kills a nearby soldier or two (pfff it takes 2 turns to kill each one) everyone else is at the castle. He probably isn't getting a full level up.

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He tanks on to chapter Two, where he's not involved in the recruitment process of Ross and Garcia, so he can go ahead and start clearing the map. Garcia, on the other hand, eats at least some experience no matter what, and being Garcia, is probably involved in some way with the 'recruitment of Ross and Garcia' scenario. Once all of that **** is over with, and Garcia's actually recruited, you can either waste another turn of Vanessa's, a clearly better unit, to rescue Garcia and take him to the frontlines, and possibly another still to drop him, or someone else's to take/drop him, all to get a mediocre, fatass unit up to the frontlines, *breathes* -OR-, you could just leave Garcia alone this chapter and let other clearly better units get the experience.


OR, Garcia can just walk once you recruited him and get to fight. Garcia not only has more move than Gilliam, but he also has a hand axe, so he has good range. Plus this chapter is full of brigands who have WTA against Gilly-boy. and I think an archer, lol. Gilliam can kill it, I guess, but overall, Garcia is better at killing.

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Then you've got Bone, which, if you add an 'r' to his name, that describes what Bone has for Gilliam's awesomeness. No wonder, because Gilliam has WTA over him, Gilliam has massive DEF against Bone's wimpy Iron Sword. Gilliam will proceed to rape Bone. Well, then again, Bone might even give consent according to previous context. ANYWAYS, Garcia has WTD and low hit due to that, mediocre defense, and halfdecent speed, so he could be hit for moderate damage with high consistency. On the other hand, Garcia might not even hit when he attacks Bone. Garcia isn't getting the free boss level up this chapter, while Gilliam is at least a sensible choice.


Bone is a brigand.

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Gilliam's early combat utility and Garcia's lack thereof leads to a level lead of 2 or 3. Combat statz~


Nah, already explained how he is barely getting a single level up before Garcia joins. Plus, you also have to consider that if you are planning to play Ephraim's route Eirika is receiving a bit of special treatment so she gets as many level ups as possible before disappearing, making it possible that Gilliam receives even less experience in chapter 1.

Comparing our units at base level would be more ideal. But I'll be nice and assume that Gilliam got a nice level up. +1 STR, +1 HP, +1 DEF, which is kinda what you have in the 7/0 level you posted.

Offense:

Gilliam. Iron lance. 17 Atk, 3 AS
Garcia. Iron axe. 16 Atk, 7 AS

Apparently, Gilliam wins, but let's see a little bit about enemies. For more info, check this:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fire_Emblem_Fu...?showtopic=8454

Ch.2
Initial Enemy Placement:
Upper Left Corner-One Brigand
Far East Center-One Archer
Near Central Fort-One Brigand
In Southern Peaks-Two Brigands

Gilliam has WTD against all but one enemy, meaning he has same Atk as Garcia, but less hit. Garcia also has more move and hand axe.

Chapter 3, same story. Hell, the chapter's name is "The Bandits of Borgo"

And chapter 4, Revenants have 0-1 AS. Garcia wtfraeps them. If Gilliam is level 8 you could say "yay, he has 4 AS, he doubles some revenants!" and then I would show you this:

http://eaichu250.superbusnet.com/DT/feasta...&game=8e&stat=3

Even tough the average spd at level 8 is 4.2 you'll see that his chance of having 4 speed at level 8 is 41%. Not the most reliable evar.

Garcia wins in offense so much it's not even funny.

Defense: I'll start pointing out this enemy sample of chapter 2:

Hp/Str/Skl/Spd/Luck/Def/Res
22/7/3/7/0/3/0(LvL 3, Iron Axe)

Whoa! They can have 7 speed already. Whoa! Gilliam has 3 AS. Whoa! Gilliam can get doubled and lose in durability. Other than that, Gilliam wins defense >_> but Garcia can endure 3 rounds of combat, meaning his durability is also great (only Seth and Gilliam are more durable at this point). Garcia's offense win is clearly larger than Gilliam's durability lead

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HAY LETS SKIP TO PROMOTION SHALL WE NOW WE'RE OFF DOWN THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD k it's safe to say that Gilliam promotes a little earlier.


No it isn't. For starters, since Garcia is better at killing it is easier for him to get more experience. Then, Gilliam is not the only one who wants a Knight Crest. Franz is a h4x unit, so having him promoted early on can be a great help to the team. Forde and Kyle are also arguably better than Gilliam. I'd have both Gilliam and Garcia promote at chapter 10, but I'll just note that Gilliam has had a significant movement disadvantage so far and, that his offense sucks balls. 5 AS at level 12 when Armor knights have like 3 at this point=lol. He can't even double those.

So, I'd say promotion looks something like:
............................HP Pow Skl Spd Def Res Lck
Gilliam 15/1 (GK).. 37.9 16.0 10.8 8.3 17.1 6.2 6.3
Garcia 15/1 (Hero) 40.8 16.1 13.4 11.2 9.8 4.6 7.4

As you can see, my unit doesn't need level leads to make Gilliam look like a little girl.As for supports, Garcia doesn't want Gilliam as much as you say. He has:

Seth: who takes A Franz, would love B Garcia, as the fire bonuses are way better than the ones Eirika gives (light), not to mention 10/+2 is pretty good.

Neimi: FirexFire is love. Garcia only takes B, as Colm exists. It's also 10/+2

So that means Gilliam only gets C Garcia.

And the supports are completed rly fast. (B Seth and B Neimi take 25 turns, C Gilliam is achieved in 30 turns)

The bonuses Garcia gets are:

4 Atk, 1 Def, 17 Hit, 25 Avo, 20 Crt, 7 CritEvd.

The bonuses are pretty h4x. Gilliam can't really compete in offense and Garcia gets all the durability he wants from supports (bold'd) and the layers of fat that give him massive HP. Gilliam, on the other hand, no matter which supports he gets can't never fix his low speed.

Bizox - December 20, 2007 02:44 AM (GMT)
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D:

:rose:

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hehe I never imagined I would see the words "big bad soldiers" together, in a FE debaet. Unfortunately for Gilliam those soldiers are actually challenging opponents, because he can't double with 3 speed. Furthermore, Gilliam has phail move and starts at the north, while he kills a nearby soldier or two (pfff it takes 2 turns to kill each one) everyone else is at the castle. He probably isn't getting a full level up.


And while everyone else is approaching the castle, there are reinforcements coming
up behind you towards which Gilliam can move and cut them off. He can just not attack the soldiers at the north on the player phase and take the whopping 0 or 1 damage from them, and move down towards the reinforcements with the other soldiers chasing him. He takes so little damage that he can afford not to attack during the player phase if it's advantageous for him. He could easily get a full level up, unless you use Seth to clear the map, which would be fairly unwise since Franz is arriving this chapter, who could benefit from killing the enemies near the castle with Seth's more powerful weapons.

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OR, Garcia can just walk once you recruited him and get to fight. Garcia not only has more move than Gilliam, but he also has a hand axe, so he has good range. Plus this chapter is full of brigands who have WTA against Gilly-boy. and I think an archer, lol. Gilliam can kill it, I guess, but overall, Garcia is better at killing.


BUT, he first needs to be rescued by Vanessa and taken over to newly recruited Ross to be recruited in the first place, which takes 2-3 turns to begin with. By that time, even Gilliam is well ahead of Ross and Garcia. Garcia can walk once you recruit him, but whether he'll catch up or not is questionable. Ideally, Garcia is better at killing, but by the time he's caught up with the main party, there may not be as much killing left for him to do.

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Nah, already explained how he is barely getting a single level up before Garcia joins. Plus, you also have to consider that if you are planning to play Ephraim's route Eirika is receiving a bit of special treatment so she gets as many level ups as possible before disappearing, making it possible that Gilliam receives even less experience in chapter 1.


This fact would hurt /both/ units in the earlygame, not just Gilliam. In chapter one, yes, it only hurts Gilliam, but from Ch2 on, if you are taking Eph's route, then Eirika will get more experience than pretty much the entire party so she doesn't wtfail when she comes back to the party at the desert chapter.

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And chapter 4, Revenants have 0-1 AS. Garcia wtfraeps them. If Gilliam is level 8 you could say "yay, he has 4 AS, he doubles some revenants!" and then I would show you this:

http://eaichu250.superbusnet.com/DT/feasta...&game=8e&stat=3

Even tough the average spd at level 8 is 4.2 you'll see that his chance of having 4 speed at level 8 is 41%. Not the most reliable evar.


Gilliam has a legitimate chance of OHKOing the mogalls, so his offense isn't limited to doubling some revenants 41% of the time. Beyond revenants, the monsters in Ch4 have decidedly low HP, and none have significant defense, so Gilliam actually has somewhat solid offense this chapter. He can legitimately OHKO mogalls, and as you said, can possibly double the revenants.

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Whoa! They can have 7 speed already. Whoa! Gilliam has 3 AS. Whoa! Gilliam can get doubled and lose in durability. Other than that, Gilliam wins defense >_> but Garcia can endure 3 rounds of combat, meaning his durability is also great (only Seth and Gilliam are more durable at this point). Garcia's offense win is clearly larger than Gilliam's durability lead


According to your previously linked topic, the average speed is 6.2 for the brigands. Half of them have six speed, and one of them has five. Only two have seven. So yes, two common enemies can double Gilliam, but most of them can't. Even Bone and the archer can't. Yes, he /can/ get doubled, but he doesn't get doubled by 3 times as many enemies in said chapter. Using a relative outlier of a speed example is blowing things out of proportion in a sense. Staying alive and letting the healers heal units that could use the extra HP more is more beneficial to your army than offense, so Garcia's offense win may be larger, but his defensive shortcomings as opposed to Gilliam could be seen as more significant.

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No it isn't. For starters, since Garcia is better at killing it is easier for him to get more experience. Then, Gilliam is not the only one who wants a Knight Crest. Franz is a h4x unit, so having him promoted early on can be a great help to the team. Forde and Kyle are also arguably better than Gilliam. I'd have both Gilliam and Garcia promote at chapter 10, but I'll just note that Gilliam has had a significant movement disadvantage so far and, that his offense sucks balls. 5 AS at level 12 when Armor knights have like 3 at this point=lol. He can't even double those.


Promotion to GK boosts Gilliam's speed enough to double slower units, and promotion gives him WTC, better movement, and all that good ****. It's not as beneficial to Garcia. All he gets: Swords and +1 move. Garcia's movement advantage is all but gone, considering that mounted units make up for their terrain movement losses by being able to move again after doing a non-attack action. As well, Gilliam suddenly has great rescuing utility and has WTA more often than Garcia ever will.

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So that means Gilliam only gets C Garcia.

(and all the other support stuff you talked about <<;)


B Franz isn't out of the question, since Forde, his other potential option for a B support, has A Kyle, B Ephraim/Vanessa/Eirika. As well, a lategame support with Syrene wouldn't be a complete waste, either. Given B Franz, C Garcia: (C Syrene in parenthesis)

Atk: 1 Def: 2(3) Hit: 5 Avo: 10(15) Crit: 20(15) Crit Avo: 15(20)

Those aren't too bad, either. The Crit especially helps Gilliam's offense, and the Def and avoid just makes him that much more durable. Garcia still has an offense lead, granted, but it's not so ridiculous now. A crit's an insta-kill almost no matter who you are, so if you give Gilliam a killer lance/axe/sword, his offense is pretty hawt. Low speed is unfixable, yes, but it matters less and less later into the game as effect weapons, silver weapons, and killer weapons come into play and make OHKOs easier and easier for units like Gilliam.

Jeigan - December 21, 2007 06:29 PM (GMT)
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:rose:


:B):

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And while everyone else is approaching the castle, there are reinforcements coming
up behind you towards which Gilliam can move and cut them off. He can just not attack the soldiers at the north on the player phase and take the whopping 0 or 1 damage from them, and move down towards the reinforcements with the other soldiers chasing him. He takes so little damage that he can afford not to attack during the player phase if it's advantageous for him. He could easily get a full level up, unless you use Seth to clear the map, which would be fairly unwise since Franz is arriving this chapter, who could benefit from killing the enemies near the castle with Seth's more powerful weapons.


Whatever. He can get a full level up. I already gave him that. In the next chapter, he isn't able to get another full level up in the 2-3 turns it takes for Garcia to be part of the team.

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BUT, he first needs to be rescued by Vanessa and taken over to newly recruited Ross to be recruited in the first place, which takes 2-3 turns to begin with. By that time, even Gilliam is well ahead of Ross and Garcia. Garcia can walk once you recruit him, but whether he'll catch up or not is questionable. Ideally, Garcia is better at killing, but by the time he's caught up with the main party, there may not be as much killing left for him to do.


Questionable? I don't think so. The map is pretty small and your troops not so strong and/or numerous. Some units may also lose a turn buying stuff (Eirika probably wants an iron sword, for example). Enemies also move toward you, so you can safely wait a turn for them, using the wood's protection.

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This fact would hurt /both/ units in the earlygame, not just Gilliam. In chapter one, yes, it only hurts Gilliam, but from Ch2 on, if you are taking Eph's route, then Eirika will get more experience than pretty much the entire party so she doesn't wtfail when she comes back to the party at the desert chapter.


Yes, it hurts both units. So? Garcia is still getting more experience than Gilliam, because he doesn't fail at killing.

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Gilliam has a legitimate chance of OHKOing the mogalls, so his offense isn't limited to doubling some revenants 41% of the time. Beyond revenants, the monsters in Ch4 have decidedly low HP, and none have significant defense, so Gilliam actually has somewhat solid offense this chapter. He can legitimately OHKO mogalls, and as you said, can possibly double the revenants.


Incorrect. Mogalls have, on average, 16 HP and 2 DEF. For Gilliam to have 19 Atk with his iron lance and OHKO them, he'd have to be at level 11, which is obviously not happening so early. I'll also note thatthey have 3 SPD, so Garcia at base level doubles them.

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Staying alive and letting the healers heal units that could use the extra HP more is more beneficial to your army than offense, so Garcia's offense win may be larger, but his defensive shortcomings as opposed to Gilliam could be seen as more significant.


Garcia is fully capable of staying alive for 3 rounds of combat, assuming he gets hit. If he dodges (brigands have low hit, there is lots of terrain) his durability is even better, and while not needing healing is nice and all, eliminating the enemies faster is a considerable advantage itself, not only because it means you finish faster, but also because if there are less enemies, the rest of the team gets atttacked less, and thus, becomes more durable.

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Promotion to GK boosts Gilliam's speed enough to double slower units, and promotion gives him WTC, better movement, and all that good ****. It's not as beneficial to Garcia. All he gets: Swords and +1 move. Garcia's movement advantage is all but gone, considering that mounted units make up for their terrain movement losses by being able to move again after doing a non-attack action. As well, Gilliam suddenly has great rescuing utility and has WTA more often than Garcia ever will.


If by slower units you mean soldiers and armors, nobody is impressed. Garcia has been the best unit in the team at fighting those for a long time. 10 AS is pretty horrible. Promotion being maybe more useful for Gilliam than for Garcia still doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of units to compete with for the Knight Crests. On the other hand, promoting Joshua doesn't even give him a secondary weapon, so promoting Garcia first may be better, according to your logic.

Gilliam has less rescue than Garcia after promotion, due to being mounted and using a different formula. Gilliam has 11 Rsc, Garcia still has 13, and both have the same movement while Garcia isn't so limited by terrain.

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B Franz isn't out of the question, since Forde, his other potential option for a B support, has A Kyle, B Ephraim/Vanessa/Eirika. As well, a lategame support with Syrene wouldn't be a complete waste, either. Given B Franz, C Garcia: (C Syrene in parenthesis)

Atk: 1 Def: 2(3) Hit: 5 Avo: 10(15) Crit: 20(15) Crit Avo: 15(20)


Gilliam can get whatever you want. His weakness is still not fixed, so I don't rly care. Lol at Syrene, tough. She is a horrible unit. Why would you use her?

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A crit's an insta-kill almost no matter who you are, so if you give Gilliam a killer lance/axe/sword, his offense is pretty hawt. Low speed is unfixable, yes, but it matters less and less later into the game as effect weapons, silver weapons, and killer weapons come into play and make OHKOs easier and easier for units like Gilliam.


Why would Gilliam get the killer weapons instead of other units? Other units who can double have more chance to land a critical because they get two attacks instead of 1. And even if Gilliam gets a killer weapon, Garcia can as well, anyway.

Bizox - December 25, 2007 06:52 PM (GMT)
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B)


:bosox:

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Whatever. He can get a full level up. I already gave him that. In the next chapter, he isn't able to get another full level up in the 2-3 turns it takes for Garcia to be part of the team.


Quite possibly true, but he can at least get some extra experience towards another level up. Though it won't add on any stats immediately, it's still some sort of headstart for Gilliam.

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Questionable? I don't think so. The map is pretty small and your troops not so strong and/or numerous. Some units may also lose a turn buying stuff (Eirika probably wants an iron sword, for example). Enemies also move toward you, so you can safely wait a turn for them, using the wood's protection.


Eirika doesn't need to buy that iron sword herself. A unit that's further behind could easily buy it for her and not cause units that'll need experience, like Eirika if you're taking Ephraim's route, to fall behind like that. And you don't have to, by any means, wait for the units. Sure, you can, but letting the enemy attack you leaves more things to chance when it comes to who the enemy attacks and the like. Like you said, your units are not so strong at this point, so you want to leave as little to chance as possible.

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Yes, it hurts both units. So? Garcia is still getting more experience than Gilliam, because he doesn't fail at killing.


If it gets to the point that they're both getting less experience than most of the rest of the party, and they fall behind level-wise, Garcia won't be able to double before long, either. So if that occurs, Garcia would fail miserably at killing, just like Gilliam. And Gilliam would get the win in durability, so he would be at least slightly more desirable than Garcia.

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Garcia is fully capable of staying alive for 3 rounds of combat, assuming he gets hit. If he dodges (brigands have low hit, there is lots of terrain) his durability is even better, and while not needing healing is nice and all, eliminating the enemies faster is a considerable advantage itself, not only because it means you finish faster, but also because if there are less enemies, the rest of the team gets atttacked less, and thus, becomes more durable.


But, if you choose defense over offense, it wouldn't matter how often your team gets attacked, because your team is durable enough to take the hits. Everything wouldn't necessarily be a ORKO, but they would attack on the enemy phase and find themselves dead anyways. If the enemies are just killing themselves off by attacking someone who's taking minimal damage, the offense of your team is increased just by having a solid defense.

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If by slower units you mean soldiers and armors, nobody is impressed. Garcia has been the best unit in the team at fighting those for a long time. 10 AS is pretty horrible. Promotion being maybe more useful for Gilliam than for Garcia still doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of units to compete with for the Knight Crests. On the other hand, promoting Joshua doesn't even give him a secondary weapon, so promoting Garcia first may be better, according to your logic.

Gilliam has less rescue than Garcia after promotion, due to being mounted and using a different formula. Gilliam has 11 Rsc, Garcia still has 13, and both have the same movement while Garcia isn't so limited by terrain.


My point was that at least now he can kill those, where before, he couldn't. So there's an improvement. All I'm saying with the secondary weapons is that it gives Gilliam WTC, which is beneficial, no question. Garcia gains two weapons from promotion, and both benefit him highly. Joshua doesn't really need extra weapons for WTC, since his hit and critical allow him to just about bypass any disadvantages WTD would burden him with. Garcia, on the other hand, doesn't have amazing skill, so WTA is beneficial for him. But he doesn't have it all the time, so he won't always have the guaranteed hit. Against sword users, Garcia is really in trouble, since he could get doubled and isn't likely to land a hit. Gilliam will get doubled, yeah, but he'll land the hit since he has lances, and will likely take less damage from the two hits anyways.

You misunderstood me. I said he's more effective rescuing, since he can move after rescuing and dropping, and has no movement disadvantages to Garcia.

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Gilliam can get whatever you want. His weakness is still not fixed, so I don't rly care. Lol at Syrene, tough. She is a horrible unit. Why would you use her?


I said she's an option. She's a quick support at the endgame. She's a horrible unit, yes, but at the same time, the two units we're debating aren't exactly top tier, either, mirite?

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Why would Gilliam get the killer weapons instead of other units? Other units who can double have more chance to land a critical because they get two attacks instead of 1. And even if Gilliam gets a killer weapon, Garcia can as well, anyway.


He'd get killer weapons since he won't get a kill as easily as other units with normal weapons. One critical is likely to be a kill, the second hit isn't needed. His offense is vastly improved with the increased critical chance, whereas those that double often need it less.

Jeigan - December 26, 2007 05:30 PM (GMT)
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:bosox:


*Jeigan doesn't have an emote of his own to counter that D:

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Quite possibly true, but he can at least get some extra experience towards another level up. Though it won't add on any stats immediately, it's still some sort of headstart for Gilliam.


Fine. During the 2-3 turns it takes to recruit Garcia, Gilliam gets like 20 experience, I guess. Not like it matters.

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Eirika doesn't need to buy that iron sword herself. A unit that's further behind could easily buy it for her and not cause units that'll need experience, like Eirika if you're taking Ephraim's route, to fall behind like that.


"A unit that's further behind"? That sounds exactly like Gilliam :D He can buy that iron sword and miss experience, and that back ups completely why he shouldn't get a significant amount of experience before Garcia is ready for combat.

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If it gets to the point that they're both getting less experience than most of the rest of the party, and they fall behind level-wise, Garcia won't be able to double before long, either. So if that occurs, Garcia would fail miserably at killing, just like Gilliam. And Gilliam would get the win in durability, so he would be at least slightly more desirable than Garcia.


We were not talking about underleveled compared to the rest of the army. We were comparing with Eirika in case you play Ephraim's route, where she's getting more experience than everyone. In that context, Erika would be slightly overlevelled while Garcia and Gilliam would be on par with the rest of the team.

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But, if you choose defense over offense, it wouldn't matter how often your team gets attacked, because your team is durable enough to take the hits. Everything wouldn't necessarily be a ORKO, but they would attack on the enemy phase and find themselves dead anyways. If the enemies are just killing themselves off by attacking someone who's taking minimal damage, the offense of your team is increased just by having a solid defense.


The team isn't that durable, tough. Only Gilliam is (and Seth, of course, but he doesn't matter in our debaet), and so you want the enemies to be dead as soon as possible so other units don't have to take damage. While Gilliam is pretty durable, if another of your units is in enemy range, the enemies can ignore Gilliam and attack other ppl. Gilliam can't protect everyone (plus it takes more time for him to get to the frontline. Low move ftl). Earlygame, there are very few enemies, anyway, so while Garcia's defensive parameters are worse than Gilliam's he has zero troubles surviving. Lategame, when enemies attack in bigger groups, Garcia has built great defensive stats as explained in my forst post. So what matters now is offense, a duty that Garcia always does better than Gilliam.

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My point was that at least now he can kill those, where before, he couldn't. So there's an improvement. All I'm saying with the secondary weapons is that it gives Gilliam WTC, which is beneficial, no question. Garcia gains two weapons from promotion, and both benefit him highly. Joshua doesn't really need extra weapons for WTC, since his hit and critical allow him to just about bypass any disadvantages WTD would burden him with. Garcia, on the other hand, doesn't have amazing skill, so WTA is beneficial for him. But he doesn't have it all the time, so he won't always have the guaranteed hit. Against sword users, Garcia is really in trouble, since he could get doubled and isn't likely to land a hit. Gilliam will get doubled, yeah, but he'll land the hit since he has lances, and will likely take less damage from the two hits anyways.


There's an improvement yes. But compared to the rest of the team, he still sucks. Against sword users, Gilliam wins, yes. But against everything else, Garcia will win. Also, I may point out that Garcia's loss against swords gets compensated by Gilliam's loss against magic users. He doesn't have good resistance and can't dodge, very well, while Garcia has a chance of dodging and can OHKO many magic users. If we were to decide what is more significant here, I'd say that magic users are. They are more abundant than myrmidons and stuff and more annoying (more so long range spells) and Garcia can equip a reaver weapon to fix that weakness, while Gilliam has no solution to his.

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You misunderstood me. I said he's more effective rescuing, since he can move after rescuing and dropping, and has no movement disadvantages to Garcia.


He won move again, but his Aid went down. He's not better or worse than before

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I said she's an option. She's a quick support at the endgame. She's a horrible unit, yes, but at the same time, the two units we're debating aren't exactly top tier, either, mirite?


Early joining Mid tier units are much more acceptable than the worst unit in the game

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He'd get killer weapons since he won't get a kill as easily as other units with normal weapons. One critical is likely to be a kill, the second hit isn't needed. His offense is vastly improved with the increased critical chance, whereas those that double often need it less.


Yes, but it also happens that first hit isn't critical but second hit is. Gilliam can't have this option since he never doubles, while other units have more possibility of landing a critical since they get 2 chances, thus making them more effective.





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