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:. The evidence for evolution., Since it comes up... over and over...

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Gustave5436

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:46 PM)

Or maybe it is that he has done a TON of research and can prove that without a doubt that evolution is butt-kiss?

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

QUOTE

Show me here some evidence for evolution, and I will try my best to denounce it.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

This post has been edited by Gustave5436 on Aug 31 2007, 12:49 AM

Moridin

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:49 AM

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QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 30 2007, 11:47 PM)

You should have looked at the site.

"I am referring to the general theory of evolution which believes these five major events took place without God:

Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
Planets and stars formed from space dust.
Matter created life by itself.
Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals). "

QUOTE

Further, I am not even going to touch the first few posts, becuase if I did that, then I'd have to go throughout the ENTIRE thread and get evidence there and such. It is much easier to start off with the reopening point.

Just because you can't be bothered to read the evidence provided does not mean the evidence was not provided.

This post has been edited by Moridin on Aug 31 2007, 12:50 AM

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indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:50 AM

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QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:37 AM)

A handily compiled list of evidence.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513272

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513284

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513295

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513315

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513331

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513342

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...dpost&p=4513352

Handy, but my mind is tired as hell >.<

I will read the links tomorrow. I just want to debate someone else for tonight while I am waiting for a friend to come onto AIM.

BTW, I read the first part of the first link and I will not try to prove creationism, becuase it is not an evolution verse creation debate.

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Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM

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*gapes in open-mouthed astonishment*

Did you just say that with a straight face? ...

Sorry, I'm tired. *goes to bed*

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QUOTE (admin @ Feb 14 2007, 08:50 PM)

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indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM)

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

Bwahahahahahaha! You think that is all he has read? Maybe you should be seeing his creation seminar then, lol.

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Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM)

QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM)

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

Bwahahahahahaha! You think that is all he has read? Maybe you should be seeing his creation seminar then, lol.

Oh fine, I'll take a look.

Ummm...

QUOTE

The Garden of Eden, part two of the seminar series, describes the earth as it was before the worldwide flood. Dr. Hovind explains in detail how it was possible for man to live over 900 years, for plants and animals to grow much larger than today, and for dinosaurs to thrive along with man.

No?

This post has been edited by Delta1212 on Aug 31 2007, 12:54 AM

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QUOTE (admin @ Feb 14 2007, 08:50 PM)

Wow this thread is epic

QUOTE (The Fireman @ July 26 2007, 05:31 PM)

It's ok Delta, the mods still love you.� But the forum skin is not a user and we cannot warn it.

Gustave5436

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:52 PM)

QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM)

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

Bwahahahahahaha! You think that is all he has read? Maybe you should be seeing his creation seminar then, lol.

I'm not interested in crap, sorry.

And again, if you want to "disprove" evolution, I suggest starting with the first post of this thread.

This post has been edited by Gustave5436 on Aug 31 2007, 12:54 AM

indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:55 AM

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QUOTE (Moridin @ Aug 31 2007, 12:49 AM)

QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 30 2007, 11:47 PM)

We currently have no proof of the first one happening without a God, nor do we have proof of it happening WITH a God.

As for the evidence, please either actually read the first post of the thread, or at least follow the links Delta kindly provided.

Just because you can't be bothered to read the evidence provided does not mean the evidence was not provided.

Maybe you should post YOUR evidence, as I have stated that I will be reading the other stuff tomorrow.

And, like I said, we are NOT trying to prove creationism in this thread, but evolution. Thus, creationism will stay out of the debate lest we get banned.

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indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:56 AM

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QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM)

QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM)

QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM)

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

Bwahahahahahaha! You think that is all he has read? Maybe you should be seeing his creation seminar then, lol.

Oh fine, I'll take a look.

Ummm...

No?

You have to watch them you bung hole >.<

A quick description for the videos will not get you enough information about the movie. WATCH THEM, and you will understand that he has gone further into his research then probably all of us.

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Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:56 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:55 AM)

QUOTE (Moridin @ Aug 31 2007, 12:49 AM)

QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 30 2007, 11:47 PM)

All the evidence I can provide is summed up by those links I gave you before. I don't currently have the wherewithall to paraphrase. I'm too tired.

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QUOTE (admin @ Feb 14 2007, 08:50 PM)

Wow this thread is epic

QUOTE (The Fireman @ July 26 2007, 05:31 PM)

It's ok Delta, the mods still love you.� But the forum skin is not a user and we cannot warn it.

Moridin

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 12:57 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:55 PM)

Why should I need to post evidence when there is already plenty here? Unless you need evidence beyond the first 7 posts.

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Gustave5436

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:56 PM)

So, does he provide any evidence for his crazy ramblings or should we just believe them on faith?

indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM

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QUOTE

I also said that I just wanted to see OTHERS evidence for evolution...

So far, all I have seen is "look at the first th'even posts. WELL READ MY POST FIRST!

I give in, I thought I was too lazy to read 26 pages, but jeez, most of you are too lazy tor ead a single post >.<

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Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:56 AM)

QUOTE (Delta1212 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM)

QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:52 AM)

QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 12:48 AM)

Reading the Bible and Mein Kamp doesn't count as "a TON of research."

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=20262

Bwahahahahahaha! You think that is all he has read? Maybe you should be seeing his creation seminar then, lol.

Oh fine, I'll take a look.

Ummm...

No?

Excuse me if this sounds mean, but I'm not nice when I haven't slept:

I don't care how much research and details someone puts into their video explanation of why babies are actually brought by the Stork. If I see it says that the Stork brings babies in the description, I'll know he's wrong.

Normally, I'd try to debate this logically, but I'm going to bed now instead.

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QUOTE (admin @ Feb 14 2007, 08:50 PM)

Wow this thread is epic

QUOTE (The Fireman @ July 26 2007, 05:31 PM)

It's ok Delta, the mods still love you.� But the forum skin is not a user and we cannot warn it.

indoslavokia

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:01 AM

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QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM)

QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:56 PM)

So, does he provide any evidence for his crazy ramblings or should we just believe them on faith?

So, do you provide any evidence for your crazy ramblings or should we just believe them on faith?

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Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:01 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM)

No one is asking you to read 26 pages, just the first 7 posts...

Edit: Directed at the previous post- Yes, the first seven posts of this thread

This post has been edited by Delta1212 on Aug 31 2007, 01:02 AM

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Wow this thread is epic

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Gustave5436

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:02 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:01 AM)

QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM)

QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 30 2007, 11:56 PM)

So, does he provide any evidence for his crazy ramblings or should we just believe them on faith?

So, do you provide any evidence for your crazy ramblings or should we just believe them on faith?

Here's some, though there is a lot more on the first page of the thread. Shall I go get someone to prove that 1+1=2 for you as well?

QUOTE (Reformentia)

This topic is not "evolution vs. creationism". This is "Here's the evidence for evolution, discuss". If you think it's incorrect or insufficient, feel free to share why. I am constantly seeing claims that there isn't any evidence for evolution occuring... like for example in the current "evolution vs. creationism" topic. This is a response to those claims.

This is a series of posts I made on the General forums of the game that shall not be named back about a year or so ago. It's my best shot at putting together a relatively comprehensive overview of the kind of evidence we're dealing with when we talk about evolution occuring and presenting it in a way which is hopefully fairly clear even to those who don't have much familiarity with the subject. Some visitors to the Legion offsites may have seen these there as well.

If anyone notices any broken links I'd appreciate having them pointed out. I think I've verified them all but I might have missed something.

Post 1: Dating Methods

Carbon (C14) Dating:

C14 dating is used to date the remains of organic, air breathing organisms up to approximately 50,000 years old. While living these organisms breathe the atmosphere, which contains trace amounts of the radioactive isotope Carbon 14 that is constantly being produced in the upper atmosphere through neutron bombardment. So long as they are alive the C14 content of their bodies will remain in equilibrium with the C14 content of the atmosphere. When they die respiration ceases, along with the intake of any new quantities of C14. Over time the C14 decays with a half-life of 5568 years into N14. By measuring how much C14 remains un-decayed the time elapsed since the death of the organism can be determined.

A common misperception of C14 dating is that it relies on the assumption that atmospheric C14 levels remained constant in the past so that we can know how much C14 an organism started off with. While this was an assumption made when the technique was first developed about half a century ago it has not been the case for several decades. Historical atmospheric C14 concentrations have been charted and calibrated using both dendochronology and lake varves which incorporate organic sediment in their annual deposition layers. One particularly good example of this is Lake Suigetsu in Japan where cores have been drilled to a depth of 45,000 annual layers. Because of the layering process we have an independent count of exactly how old every layer is� and because the layers incorporate organic material (the remains of a surface algae which dies off every year and sinks to the bottom of the lake) each layer can be C14 dated as well, and using these two data points the atmospheric C14 content can be charted all the way back for the entire time span encompassed by the varve core. This data (cross-checked against multiple other sites and methods) then allows us to apply C14 dating to other sites already knowing how fluctuations in atmospheric C14 concentrations in the past will effect the results� and allowing us to calibrate out error that would otherwise be introduced due to those past fluctuations.

Just one more note on C14 dating... once this calibration scale was applied it was discovered that previous C14 dates had been underestimating ages. By a few percent. There are also the occasional examples of C14 dates which have supposedly been wildly inaccurate. Many of these examples are the result of grossly improper applications of the method. For example, one I have encountered quite often is the "C14 dating of a living snail shell" that came back as thousands of years old... I believe this is one of Hovind's pet illustrations. The mollusks in question were extremely inappropriate subjects for C14 dating, which anyone familiar with the method would know. They form shells which are in equilibrium with the carbon content of the water sources in which they live... NOT the atmosphere. No C14 lab worth it's salt would ever date such an organism without warning the person requesting the test of the reservoir effect that would most likely render the test results invalid.

Longer Ranged Radiometric Dating:

There are a great many longer ranged radiometric dating methods using radioactive isotopes with longer half-lives than C14. I�ll quickly review a couple of them.

1. Argon-Argon (Ar40-Ar39) dating. Argon-Argon is a method closely related to Potassium-Argon, where the age of a sample is determined by measurement of how much of the potassium-40 in the rock has decayed into Argon-40. However, with the Argon-Argon method it is also possible to tell if there is any Argon-40 present which is NOT a product of the decay of the potassium in the sample. This is done by placing the sample to be dated in close proximity to a nuclear reactor for several hours. The resulting neutron bombardment from the reactor causes potassium-39 in the sample to be transformed into Argon-39. Argon-39 has a half-life of only 269 years, and is not found in nature� so any subsequently detected argon-39 is known to be a product of the decay of the potassium-39 in the sample. After this is done the sample is then put through an incremental heating process and the released argon-40/argon-39 ratios are measured at every stage. A sample that contains only argon-40 that is a product of the decay of the potassium-40 in that sample will release argon-39 and argon-40 in the same proportion at EVERY heating step. If there is parentless argon-40 in the sample that is not a product of the decay of that sample�s potassium-40 however the ratios will change at different heating stages. This eliminates the popular claim that excess parentless argon in a sample can cause that sample to date as older than it really is.
2. Rubidium-Strontium (Rb-Sr) dating. Very useful for dating igneous rocks in particular. There are many different isotopes of Strontium (Sr-87, Sr-86, etc�). Rubidium-87 decays into Strontium-87. When magma first cools into an igneous rock formation all parts of the rock will have the same ratio of strontium-87/strontium-86 because the isotopes are freely dispersing through the molten rock prior to that time. However, once the rock hardens different parts of the rock will have different rubidium/strontium ratios than others since the atomic make-up of rubidium is larger than that of all the strontium isotopes and it will be incorporated into the structure of some minerals more or less easily than that of others. From that point on the rubidium will continue decaying into strontium-87� and the areas of the rock with higher initial ratios of rubidium/strontium will have their concentrations of strontium-87 increase at a higher rate than those with a lower ratio of rubidium-strontium. By taking multiple measurements from different sections of a sample and plotting their final ratios of strontium-87 to other strontium isotopes which, not being byproducts of the radioactive decay of other elements, have remained stable since the formation of the rock� the initial ratios of those isotopes throughout the sample can be determined and the elapsed time since the samples formation is established. Again, this method is highly resistant to any objections that we have to assume the concentrations of the isotopes in the samples being dated in order to date them. That is simply not the case. The initial concentrations are experimentally determined.

For further info on the various radiometric dating methods, and since (I believe) all the other participants in this discussion are Christians, I would highly recommend this page:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html#page%206

Dr. Wiens goes into considerably greater detail than I have, there�s the added advantage of several visual aids, and he�s not a godless atheist like me for those that tend to distrust us as a matter of principle� just in case there are any of those reading along.

Constancy of Decay Rates

For my last point in this post I�ll address one more often-encountered claim. That we just assume that decay rates have remained constant over time. This is not true. The constancy of decay rates over time has been independently established by multiple tests. Among them the isotopic analysis of the byproducts of the Oklo Natural Fission Reactor at Gabon which establish that decay rates have undergone absolutely no detectable change for a minimum of the past 1.8 billion years. There is also an entire battery of interstellar observations that can be made that would detect a past alteration of decay rates since that would require a change of the fine structure constant of the universe� with quite readily observable effects. Effects which are never observed no matter how far away (and thus how old) the object is we are looking at.

And that is a summary of the �evolutionary� position on dating methods. The dates arrived at are accepted and used in establishing ancient evolutionary timelines, ages of fossils, etc... because there is extremely solid evidentiary support for the reliability of those methods.

This post has been edited by Gustave5436 on Aug 31 2007, 01:04 AM

indoslavokia	Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:03 AM
ME Racing. Proud troll killer. Group: Members Posts: 94 Member No.: 34,135 Joined: 7-June 07	Something tells me that was not your evidence, but merely someone elses. Well, like I said, I give in. Night everyone. -------------------- Uhhhhh, no man! (I slaughtered this name) WIll Farrel owns! Anyone think they can prove evolution? Here is a $250k reward to whoever can prove it. That is not a false site either. StarCraft Abuser Until the Day I die!!!

Gustave5436

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:04 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 12:03 AM)

Something tells me that was not your evidence, but merely someone elses. Well, like I said, I give in. Night everyone.

Why bother to prove something that has already been proven? It's as ridiculous as asking me to prove to you that 1+1=2.

Delta1212

Posted: Aug 31 2007, 01:05 AM

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QUOTE (indoslavokia @ Aug 31 2007, 01:03 AM)

Something tells me that was not your evidence, but merely someone elses. Well, like I said, I give in. Night everyone.

Yes, BECAUSE THAT'S THE FIRST POST!

The point of this thread is to discuss the evidence put forth in the first seven posts. Not only have you refused to read these posts, you apparently haven't even seen them. Normal people at least look at the first page before posting :((

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QUOTE (admin @ Feb 14 2007, 08:50 PM)

Wow this thread is epic

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