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Title: A Call To Capitalists
Description: A Meeting Of Capitalists.


Margrave - May 3, 2007 01:13 PM (GMT)
I will make this short: I have noticed socialism. I have noticed Nationalism. I have noticed pseudo-democracy, as well as pseudo-anarchism. What I have not noticed among the would-be Marxes and Che's, the Ghande's and Monarchists, is a good, firm, Capitalist voice. As a Capitalist, I have constantly endured the unending taunts/jibes/debates which decry the system by which I rule my government (That is, endorsing the free market.) I have seen the Left, and it is raging like a storm, ever clashing within itself, ever loud, ever turbulent. I have seen the Right, the Psuedo-Facists, the Nationalists, the Anti-Comm, etc. I have honored them, and now, I have seen them erupt like the volcano of a dormant mountain.


Now, I make a plea to all Capitalists of the International community: Come forward. Make yourselves known. Those of you who are intellects, who have studied and are well versed in Economics/Philosophy/History, step forward. Those of you who love Capitalism and have no love for Socialists and their dogma, step forward.

By the Authority Of The Dollar, I call all Capitalists together to defend, through argument and debate, through thought, through action, and through the contacts and mutual respect of one another.

May the first Capitalist Conference...begin.


Capitalist,
Margrave Christianus I,
King Of March.



Edit: This is not a place for Lib/Socialists to flame and protest. This thread is for the productive coming-together of Capitalists and friends of the Free-Market. Please, consider what you type before you post here.

Comrade Yev - May 3, 2007 01:36 PM (GMT)
Capitalist theory says that growth is from competition. You all should start competing more and quit this cooperation thing. ;)

Margrave - May 3, 2007 01:38 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Comrade Yev @ May 3 2007, 07:36 AM)
Capitalist theory says that growth is from competition. You all should start competing more and quit this cooperation thing. ;)

We're in competition with socialism/communism. So yeah.


Furthermore, who let you into the conference? *calls security to drag away the Socialist interloper*

Bob Janova - May 3, 2007 01:57 PM (GMT)
In the Cyberverse, neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism pave the road to success. We Grämlins are quite capitalist, we sell our tech on a free market and that brings us profit. But we also have programmes for the good of our alliance members, which is profoundly socialist. No alliance can truly prosper without assistance for its newer nations, and whether that is disguised as loans or given as aid it is still a socialist policy.

Palachinov - May 3, 2007 02:06 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Bob Janova @ May 3 2007, 07:57 AM)
In the Cyberverse, neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism pave the road to success. We Grämlins are quite capitalist, we sell our tech on a free market and that brings us profit. But we also have programmes for the good of our alliance members, which is profoundly socialist. No alliance can truly prosper without assistance for its newer nations, and whether that is disguised as loans or given as aid it is still a socialist policy.

This.

However, these ideological meetings are OOC ones, the players, although not being able to RP as Socialists or Cappies and do well in the game, can represent their RL ideologies through their alliances.
This shows that there is only a small gap between OOC and IC in this game.

Margrave - May 3, 2007 02:07 PM (GMT)
OOC: This is actually an IC conference. Please keep it as such.

Cirrus - May 3, 2007 02:08 PM (GMT)
Capitalism in its finest form (which is necessarily a tempered, “unpure” form) creates wealth in a manner that other systems cannot. Socialism for example distributes what wealth exists much more effectively than capitalism, but has a lower threshold for the creation of new wealth since the strongest socialist economies are always focused on distribution rather than creation.

Pure, unhindered capitalism, however, turns the tables and creates far less wealth, as in a pure system the game is rigged for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer (or at best stagnate), to the extent that it becomes unworkable due to inevitable social unrest. Unhindered capitalism creates so much wealth for such a small portion of the population that the rule of diminishing returns takes effect and system ultimately collapses.

Luckily, pure, unhindered capitalism does not exist. The bureaucracy of essential functions of any civilization, from the obvious tax laws and government subsidies to the availability of education to the less obvious (and perhaps in some cases less necessary) things like land use restrictions and community aesthetic controls, temper capitalism to a very great extent. This is a good thing, as it allows for the creation of wealth in a manner that protects civil institutions and guards against social unrest (which has the unfortunate tendency to destroy systems no matter how wealthy).

Hindered capitalism is likewise the best system for the creation of wealth on Planet Bob. Our nations may have no zoning laws or government subsidies that support some industries at the expense of others, but due to the near-exponential rate of nation growth, it is clear that in order to create wealth, it is desirable for large nations to continue growing, as they are by far the best sources of new and ever larger sums of money. However, it is also clear that it is in everyone’s best interest to create MORE large nations which can create their own large sums of money, thus the semi-socialistic banking procedures of virtually every large alliance in the cyberverse. The growth of other nations is among the best investments a powerful country can make, so it is ideal from both a socialist and capitalist standpoint.

Xiao Weng - May 3, 2007 02:09 PM (GMT)
The USN has no socialist programs, merely investments.

A member applies, and if they are in need of funds, they're awarded a grant to grow. The member that gave the grant can rest easier knowing that his investment will return in the form of futher grants to raise the overall strength of the alliance, and that he will not have to give more money, thereby keeping his own strength higher as he invests in himself.

USN's loan system is also effective, with a constant 10% interest rate. Defaulting on the loan, however, is a signed release to open one's borders to military training in a most unpleasant of manners.

hyran - May 3, 2007 02:31 PM (GMT)
Don't worry about the barbs of the leftists. They are just poor and pissed about it. They aren’t capable of competing with us because they are too busy smoking pot and eating cheetos. If they weren’t lazy they would get educated and get good jobs so they wouldn’t be so poor – instead they just demand their “fair share” of what the rest of us work for. Kind of like that scary guy on the corner with the change cup that swears at you when you ignore him.

Bad, dirty smelly hippies.

I think I should change my name to Eric Cartman

Margrave - May 3, 2007 02:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (hyran @ May 3 2007, 08:31 AM)
Don't worry about the barbs of the leftists. They are just poor and pissed about it. They aren’t capable of competing with us because they are too busy smoking pot and eating cheetos. If they weren’t lazy they would get educated and get good jobs so they wouldn’t be so poor – instead they just demand their “fair share” of what the rest of us work for. Kind of like that scary guy on the corner with the change cup that swears at you when you ignore him.

Bad, dirty smelly hippies.

I think I should change my name to Eric Cartman

Note to Leftists: This guy is not the face of capitalism.


Hyran: Please, I admire your vigor, but do give some modicrum of respect to our brothers on the other side. We need not attack them verbally, merely buy them out, prove our way is better, and generally come together to strengthen the cause of Capitalism.

Fredistania - May 3, 2007 02:38 PM (GMT)
OOC: I'm confused how can this be IC if your essentially talking about the virtues of capitalism? There is no way this can be played out in CN excpet in tech deals - an alliance leader (capitalist) arranges tech deals, members (workers) perform them, the alliance leader takes a share (surplus value) for being the leader. Beyond that it's just talking about r/l capitalism which is a boiler room topic.

Margrave - May 3, 2007 02:39 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Fredistania @ May 3 2007, 08:38 AM)
OOC: I'm confused how can this be IC if your essentially talking about the virtues of capitalism? There is no way this can be played out in CN excpet in tech deals - an alliance leader (capitalist) arranges tech deals, members (workers) perform them, the alliance leader takes a share (surplus value) for being the leader. Beyond that it's just talking about r/l capitalism which is a boiler room topic.

OOC:Is it not the same with socialism? How much socialist/communist action can you really do in CN? Please, apply this logic to your own alliances/groups before you expect it to apply to this/mine.

Cirrus - May 3, 2007 02:45 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
How much socialist/communist action can you really do in CN?
Quite a bit if you were fully committed to it. You could have all large nations give 100% of their post-bills income to smaller nations until everyone in the alliance was the same strength.

That’d be full socialism, and there’s no in-game reason why it couldn’t be done.

Now, getting people to agree to do it… that’s another story.

Juan Castro - May 3, 2007 02:47 PM (GMT)
OK lets Break The complex terms of socialism and Capitalism to its crudest,most basic concepts.
Socialism encourages co-operation
Capitalism encourages competition.

Now what alliance structure could possibly survive with each member merely competing with one and other to strengthen ones nation ?

Co-operation not competition is how alliances grow and thrive.

Margrave - May 3, 2007 02:48 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Juan Castro @ May 3 2007, 08:47 AM)
OK lets Break The complex terms of socialism and Capitalism to its crudest,most basic concepts.
Socialism encourages co-operation
Capitalism encourages competition.

Now what alliance structure could possibly survive with each member merely competing with one and other to strengthen ones nation ?

Co-operation not competition is how alliances grow and thrive.

We're competing with other economies and ideologies, but thanks for trying.

Seraku - May 3, 2007 02:51 PM (GMT)
OOC: can i come if i mearly like money?

Goose - May 3, 2007 02:59 PM (GMT)
While Turkeybowl is a dominantly capitalistic in nature, the people and government have an acute aversion to forced redistribution of wealth, for any reason. The government, however, does provide many things that are simply far too capital intensive for individual conglomerates to pursue in a capitalistic nature. The infrastructure, schooling, policing, and defense of Turkeybowl are the primary focus of the government. Regulation is minimal in all businesses, and as such, the competition and inventiveness of Turkeybowl's economy soon separates the innovations that are truly beneficial from those that are whims of fancy.

The high federal tax rate provides some of the best national defense that money can buy, and the defense industries of Turkeybowl are continuously improving upon their weapons and armaments to keep the military of Turkeybowl in the best equipment available.

Despite the high flat tax rate, the citizens of Turkeybowl, the citizens do not complain as the rate is equal for everyone, no matter if they are a billionaire, or in the lowest depths of poverty. There is no wellfare, nor any other social wealth re-distribution programs. Every citizen has become self-sufficient, and those that aren't through their own laziness find themselves with few options, and fewer friends. Without the government alienating its citizenry by forcing them to help others, they have taken it upon themselves to help those that truly can not help themselves.

Very similar to the internal policies of Turkeybowl, her foreign policy greatly resembles a capitalistic nature. The people seek peace and prosperity above all else, and have realized that in the tumultuous global political scene, that peace can not be secured from within, but also depends upon the strength of her allies. As such, much of the "foreign aid" that Turkeybowl sends out is not really foreign aid at all, it is an investment in her allies so that they may more ably defend themselves, and Turkeybowl by proxy. The "aid" sent out is never justified for reasons of need, deserve, nor wanting from the third party, but because the people of Turkeybowl feel that helping her allies to become stronger helps themselves become stronger as well.

Cirrus - May 3, 2007 03:00 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Socialism encourages co-operation
Capitalism encourages competition.

Now what alliance structure could possibly survive with each member merely competing with one and other to strengthen ones nation ?
The answer is that taking either option to its extreme hurts your ability to generate (and therefore distribute) wealth.

As with many topics, moderation is a virtue.

Goose - May 3, 2007 03:01 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Cirrus @ May 3 2007, 07:45 AM)
Quite a bit if you were fully committed to it. You could have all large nations give 100% of their post-bills income to smaller nations until everyone in the alliance was the same strength.

That’d be full socialism, and there’s no in-game reason why it couldn’t be done.

Now, getting people to agree to do it… that’s another story.

Yes, that would most likely be the most pure embodiment of socialism, but even the most socialistic/communistic alliances have not done so. I suppose that "everyone is equal, but some are more equal" holds true on Planet Bob.

Fredistania - May 3, 2007 03:03 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Margrave @ May 3 2007, 08:39 AM)
OOC:Is it not the same with socialism? How much socialist/communist action can you really do in CN? Please, apply this logic to your own alliances/groups before you expect it to apply to this/mine.

The LSF is run along anarchist lines, we have no hierarchy, no leaders and we operate on a system of mutual aid. We are an anarchist (or libertarian socialist) alliance based on solidarity. You don't need to be an r/l anarchist/communist to join, you just need to abide by those priniciples, everyone has a voice.

Galaisa - May 3, 2007 03:03 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Cirrus @ May 3 2007, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE
Socialism encourages co-operation
Capitalism encourages competition.

Now what alliance structure could possibly survive with each member merely competing with one and other to strengthen ones nation ?
The answer is that taking either option to its extreme hurts your ability to generate (and therefore distribute) wealth.

As with many topics, moderation is a virtue.

Exactly, debate over.

Goose - May 3, 2007 03:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Fredistania @ May 3 2007, 08:03 AM)
The LSF is run along anarchist lines, we have no hierarchy, no leaders and we operate on a system of mutual aid. We are an anarchist (or libertarian socialist) alliance based on solidarity. You don't need to be an r/l anarchist/communist to join, you just need to abide by those priniciples, everyone has a voice.

That system doesn't really sound very communist at all. When is the aid sent out to other nations? When they "need" it? Do the richer also receive aid?

Fredistania - May 3, 2007 03:12 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Goose @ May 3 2007, 09:05 AM)
That system doesn't really sound very communist at all. When is the aid sent out to other nations? When they "need" it? Do the richer also receive aid?

It is entitrely communist, imagine the LSF as a post revolutionary society, "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" characterises us very well.

Someone posts that they need aid, whoever has it sends it, no one gets ordered to do anything.

If there is a war we stick together, we don't even have to we have an opt out, there is no coercsion in our alliance whatsoever.

Recently I was threatened with destruction by a much larger alliance, the LSF was told to expel me or be at war. The vote to keep me and damn the consequences was unaminous.

We have a very well organised commune structure for nation growth, a rolling aid chain.

It is all based on solidarity, nothing more. We beleive that if an alliance is held together by rules, and regulations, a coersive hierarchy you obey or leave all that is achieved is the steady building of tenstions. we are together because we want to be, we do what we do because we want to.

Kryievla - May 3, 2007 03:35 PM (GMT)
Certainly, Margrave.

My people are capitalists. That is why we are an affluent population. While I see the potential greatness in having cars and microchips, my people have spoken.

In the beginning, we had only pigs and fish. However, the northlands are very cold; when one of our men found a land that would trade furs for these goods, that man instantly became rich. Seeing how much he gained by his work, many of my people were influenced to do the same. Gold, silver, and wine quickly followed, as would-be entrepreneurs invested their time and energy into finding resources that could be turned into goods.

Shortly after that, a small slew of businesses opened up along the shore. Our longships were oft laden with goods, but Olga Eriksdottir saw that with better ships, we could bring back even more. All they would require was a proper harbor, and whoever charged a small fee for providing fine docks would make large sums. At this point, Ottirgild went from a small settlement to a great city, our capital, in fact, largely due to the success of Olga's harbor. Olga is now very very rich as well.

She is a modern day success story, as she came from a family of poor fishermen. Her vision brought her and her family up, and she chose to repay society by contributing vast sums to our orphanages and hospitals. This in turn makes her immensely popular among the people; so far, only two other harbors of any note provide real competition.

After all, in a capitalist society, it is the people who decide whether you get rich or not. If they don't like you, they won't buy what you have, they will go somewhere else. And the people love Olga--even though the port city of Skadi has an equally viable trade route, the people cast their vote for whose service they desire, and they choose to utilize Olga's more often than not.

Anyhow.

Businesses came and went. Some were popular, and prospered. Some tried to sell goods that hardly anyone wanted. Most of those died off, though there is a small odd-n-ends shop that specializes in goods that most people don't want. It's a very niche market, but that shop owner does reasonably well, selling things like titanium sporks and self-erasing message boards.

It was only a matter of time before some of our more industrious people thought it would be fantastic to make duplicates of Andvaranaut (a gold ring of great historic import to my people). These copies were immensely popular, so much that they became a trade good exported all over the world. A bonus, if you will. The finely wrought jewelry, the warm furs, the exotic spices, and the silky wines were all enough to raise our standards of living.

Some say capitalism is cold and merciless. Observe! The industrious do well, the ambitious and clever prosper, and the indolent suffer. People are quick to forget in feudal times, if you did not pay your liege lord, you were killed. You had to work to survive. Before that, if you did not have a hunter or farmer working, your family would starve to death. The indolent have always suffered, but under the capitalist system, those who produce that which society values are not only allowed to live and eat, but are rewarded!

Volsunga shall remain a theocratic monarchy to the end of her days, and I, Kryievla, warrior-queen of the Volsunga, pledge minimal interference in the affairs of businesses. May the wisdom of Odin shine on my entrepreneurs :)

Margrave - May 3, 2007 03:39 PM (GMT)
The Saint-King applauds the free market so endorsed by Kryievla. Similiar stories are available in Marchlandian territory. It is interesting to note that Monarchies in this contemporary society endorse capitalism, a notion not immediately associated with the Divine Right Of Kings.

trotsky - May 3, 2007 03:44 PM (GMT)
OOC: What about the FCC?

Goose - May 3, 2007 03:49 PM (GMT)
Though I have been given power through divinity, the major religion of Turkeybowl is that of worshiping mankind, and his incredible potential and abilities. As I have proven myself the most able individual in the kingdom, it was deemed that I rule by divine right. The people have realized that no man should live his life for the benefit of others, thus the feudal system has never been used in Turkeybowl.

hyran - May 3, 2007 04:51 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Margrave @ May 3 2007, 08:34 AM)
QUOTE (hyran @ May 3 2007, 08:31 AM)
Don't worry about the barbs of the leftists.  They are just poor and pissed about it.  They aren’t capable of competing with us because they are too busy smoking pot and eating cheetos.  If they weren’t lazy they would get educated and get good jobs so they wouldn’t be so poor – instead they just demand their “fair share” of what the rest of us work for.  Kind of like that scary guy on the corner with the change cup that swears at you when you ignore him.

Bad, dirty smelly hippies.

I think I should change my name to Eric Cartman

Note to Leftists: This guy is not the face of capitalism.


Hyran: Please, I admire your vigor, but do give some modicrum of respect to our brothers on the other side. We need not attack them verbally, merely buy them out, prove our way is better, and generally come together to strengthen the cause of Capitalism.

OH COME ON. Did you not get the Eric Cartman referance?

Xiao Weng - May 3, 2007 04:52 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (hyran @ May 3 2007, 10:51 AM)

OH COME ON. Did you not get the Eric Cartman referance?

OOC: At the risk of sounding like my mother, this is not the time nor the place. ;)

civver - May 3, 2007 08:37 PM (GMT)
True socialism cannot exist since it is made useless by man's greed and ambition. Capitalism works since it uses Homo Economicus' traits for good and controls it.

KingEsus - May 3, 2007 08:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Margrave @ May 3 2007, 07:13 AM)
I will make this short: I have noticed socialism. I have noticed Nationalism. I have noticed pseudo-democracy, as well as pseudo-anarchism. What I have not noticed among the ...

I have noticed youhave managed to make nearly 1000 posts in 2 months.

Erm, well done.

Sigrun - May 3, 2007 09:05 PM (GMT)
The Æsir, as well, are firmly committed to avoiding avoiding the pitfalls of fascism and socialism, of treading, not a 'middle path' of ideologically anti-ideological nanny-statism, but a higher path, of a free market and a free people who walk with pride and honour, accepting the responsibility that falls upon the shoulder of those who walk free. This path has been secured to our people by the wisdom and power of the royal family, who have time and again proven they have the wisdom and the will to make the right decisions, even when difficult and unpopular - a test democracies always fail.

We are not certain precisely what this conference is supposed to accomplish, however we shall accept the invitation to attend with thanks, and pay close attention to its progress.


Palachinov - May 3, 2007 09:14 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (trotsky @ May 3 2007, 09:44 AM)
OOC: What about the FCC?

Anarcho-Capitalists <_<

I kid I kid :lol: They're not bad people, they referred a comrade to our alliance ^_^ :J

Vyatich - May 3, 2007 09:34 PM (GMT)
I'm a die hard Ayn Rand objectivist, which inevitably supports capitalism in its purest form. However, I would much rather role-play as a commie (they have much cooler imagery, makes for a more fun gaming experience) however every communist alliance I tried to join on this game was eventually disbanded due to internal squabbles or was trounced by NoR. If someone founded an alliance that was based off capitalist principles, and wasn't in constant warfare with the left (which it would be, plus I have too many old comrades there) then I might be persuaded to join.

Palachinov - May 3, 2007 09:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Vyatich @ May 3 2007, 03:34 PM)
I'm a die hard Ayn Rand objectivist, which inevitably supports capitalism in its purest form. However, I would much rather role-play as a commie (they have much cooler imagery, makes for a more fun gaming experience) however every communist alliance I tried to join on this game was eventually disbanded due to internal squabbles or was trounced by NoR. If someone founded an alliance that was based off capitalist principles, and wasn't in constant warfare with the left (which it would be, plus I have too many old comrades there) then I might be persuaded to join.

:lol: I was about to say; "hey, weren't you in System 37?" But then I saw the second part of your post. :P

Vyatich - May 3, 2007 09:41 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Palachinov @ May 3 2007, 03:37 PM)
:lol: I was about to say; "hey, weren't you in System 37?" But then I saw the second part of your post. :P

Nah, I was in the Sons of Liberty--you were our diplomat!!
When we started off we were simply a federalist alliance of small nations (I got the name from American History), but Solidus whined until we became officially a socialist-democracy supposedly based off Metal Gear, which I really had no problem with. <<<see avatar!!! :J

Palachinov - May 3, 2007 09:50 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Vyatich @ May 3 2007, 03:41 PM)
Nah, I was in the Sons of Liberty--you were our diplomat!!
When we started off we were simply a federalist alliance of small nations (I got the name from American History), but Solidus whined until we became officially a socialist-democracy supposedly based off Metal Gear, which I really had no problem with. <<<see avatar!!! :J

Oh yeah :blink: :lol: Sorry, I forgot, I'm an ambassador to a few alliances and get confused...you should see how many alliances Q-collective is at!

Oh man, I'm sad now. Because you reminded me about SoL...they were cool, and the MDP we had with them was the first one I had ever negotiated. Now, SoL is dead, and I find out that you're a cappie :lol: I kid I kid...although you do realise that when the revolution comes, I have to kill you ;) AAHHHH MOTHERLAND!!!!!

Vyatich - May 3, 2007 09:56 PM (GMT)
editing for truthiness :J

Palachinov - May 3, 2007 10:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Vyatich @ May 3 2007, 03:56 PM)
The SoL is not dead, its only sleeping...<wink>

You just said that out loud <doh> :lol:

Eightball - May 3, 2007 10:08 PM (GMT)
Arcturus Jefferson bursts through the door, in the process dropping a briefcase. Papers scatter everywhere. An aide rushes to pick them up while the statesman turns to the gathered capitalists and their hecklers.

What about the FCC indeed!

The Fifth Column Confederation is proud to support liberty and renounce communism at every turn! My nation, Selukia, has embraced libertarianism and the free market, and yet we are only moderates among the many voices at the FCC.

Thank you for calling this Conference, Lord Margrave. May you enjoy economic freedom throughout your reign.

And thank you, Mr. Palachinov, for your kind words. While we see each other as enemies on the intellectual field of battle, may we never break the friendship between our alliances.

Arcturus Jefferson, President of Selukia




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