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Title: Christianity. Everything about it.
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Ranulf - January 30, 2007 03:25 PM (GMT)
The Bible. It didn't come by direct fax from heaven people, get over it. MAN wrote it.

Original paganism (worship of the sun gods, etc.) and Christianity were fused by the Alexander the Great when he was in the middle of his ruling period. For instance, your day of worship is sunday, correct? Sunday was the day of worship for the sun god, and is also the beginning of the week. If you're a true christian, start going to church on saturday.

Windlord - January 30, 2007 03:38 PM (GMT)
correction MEN wrote it.

they wrote it based on history, and the inspiration God gave them.

and the New testament is mostly just the disciples writing down the happenings that went on while christ was on earth.

sunday is just a name. and as it is called "sun"day because of the sun God many christians prefer to call it the Lord's day. we worship on sunday becasue it is thefirst day of the week (the lords day) and becasue Christ was resurected on sunday.

The Boss - January 30, 2007 08:11 PM (GMT)
Well, I've already established my position on organized religion and christianity pretty well in previous posts but I'm always willing to give it another go.

I think the Bible is the single biggest load of crap ever written. It has no more validity than greek or roman religions or Incan or Mayan religions. They are all just myths that were written to help explain the world they lived in. Sure there are a few things that may be accurate but most of it is untrue and directly contradicts what we KNOW to be true, and possible.

Everyone give their all in this debate because I know I am. I'm bringing out the big guns on this one.

Windlord - January 30, 2007 08:24 PM (GMT)
see that's why this is kinda usless because though there are ways to proof what is in the bible is true, I do not know them all, and for most christians we don't need absolute proof to believe in the bible.

on of the ways to prove it's truth though is to read about the prophecies that were made in the old testament, whcih was written long befoe the new testament. in the new testament those prophecies came true. I know your jsut gonna say "well the new testament writers jsut wrote stuff in to make theprophecies come true." ahh no... they were writing about current events, not just some story they madeup, the bibles is a history book not a fiction. archeological records proove that.

ok I have one question I know alot of you thing Christianity is dumb and yur stupid if you believe in it, but all I want to know is why is it that way with only christianity? there are many other similair religons, why do you choose to pick of christianity? I'm just curious...

Anmoriazzah - January 30, 2007 08:52 PM (GMT)
There isn't 'proof,' it's taken on faith. That's what religion is.

Even if the Bible isn't inspired in anyway by any form of God, you could still discuss it's usefulness in our lives today, especially considering it's the most widely read book in the world.

I'd be interested on people's feelings about passages in the Bible, in particular I Corinthians is the book I've been reading lately, and many parts of it quite simply offend me. Men should have a beard, women should cover their faces and shouldn't speak in church. I'm not condemming everything, just pointing out some questionable/contradictory areas.

Windlord - January 30, 2007 09:09 PM (GMT)
there is proof, but liek I said i don't need it to believe in the bible myself.

ok somethign you have to understand about christianity is that though it does seem very sexsist there are only about three or four religions that a less sexsist. almost all eastern relgions are way worse.

ok first off it says nothign about covering their faces... that's islam.

it says that when they are prayign thier heads should be covered it laso says that a woman should have logn hair, and a man should have short. the woman should have long because it is the same as if her head were covered, the man should have short so that he does nto cover his head.

this is somethign that even christians discuss among themselves.

as for what I think...

1st Cor. 11:13

"Judge among yourelves is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

durign that time it was proper to do certain things wheras nowadays what is proper has lessened, and has changed. also it's i na different location of the world where it's customary and normal for them to do things that we would find odd. so basically if you feel you need to cover your head when you pray then it's up to you. for a while my mom did, and then she decided that it wasn't really nescisary.

also I couldn't find anything about men having to have beards...



THE DON - January 30, 2007 09:12 PM (GMT)

@TB you are entitled to your beliefs but are you saying its wrong to believe in something that helps someone grow up with good values and become a productive member of society? One thing that cannot be argued whether your a Christian or not the bible teaches good values and morals unlike our society today. To be completely honest it offends me greatly when someone insults what i believe in. Like WL said why is you choose to pick on Christianity is it because thats the only religion you THINK you know anything about or what? Like i said before you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to be biased because of it but just think about your choice of words in this debate, im not asking you to hold back im just telling you to stay your tongue when flaming something so many regard as fact. You can debate whether you believe or not without saying Christians believe in a
QUOTE
Load of Crap

Lyn - January 30, 2007 11:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Anmoriazzah @ Jan 30 2007, 12:52 PM)


I'd be interested on people's feelings about passages in the Bible, in particular I Corinthians is the book I've been reading lately, and many parts of it quite simply offend me. Men should have a beard, women should cover their faces and shouldn't speak in church. I'm not condemming everything, just pointing out some questionable/contradictory areas.

okay, God told the isrealites in the old testament not to eat pig or bats or anyhitng like that (i made a rhyme!) and though some of us are like "he's taking away there food!" if you think about it, He was really trying to protect them from worms-round worms-nasty worms that can make you sit on a toilet for days and still feel hungry... :Sick:

also, like WL pointed out, society changed....hair was a big smybolic thing back when. :Fro: so was clothing, tassels, food, shoes....

QUOTE

They are all just myths that were written to help explain the world they lived in. Sure there are a few things that may be accurate but most of it is untrue and directly contradicts what we KNOW to be true, and possible.


what have you found that contradicts the Bible?





Moonwalker - January 31, 2007 12:31 AM (GMT)
My comments on Christianity are the same as comments about every religion except for those who do not have divine beings (such as Buddhism).

1. You can not, as any philosophical group, be 100% correct about what you preach, hence why it is called faith. Who cares if the Red Sea split, how do you know 100% that God did it? Religions may have good missions, but since they rely on faith rather than fact they can never be 100% right.

2. In the same aspect, and philosophical group cannot be 100% wrong about their teachings. We cannot disprove that a giant spaghetti monster runs the world and we certainly cannot prove that your own God named Tim doesn't exist. Because religions cannot be 100% wrong, we cannot simply discard these beliefs.

3. Logic and reason must be present to some degree in a religion. God obviously didn't say that casual sex is wrong because he was in a bad mood, therefore it is unwise to teach it as so. There needs to be an element of reason to religion so that it isn't a bunch of childish babble about what this and that is made of. It's not wrong, but it certainly doesn't make your religion credible when God banned murder because it was a sunday night.

4. Because your religion is neither right nor wrong, it cannot be forced upon others. You may make choices based on your religion, but you must remember that the good of others mustn't be decided by your religion. Just because your deity feels that bowladromes are hell-holes doesn't mean you should try to ban bowling.

5. Religions must STRICTLY enforce and follow what they believe, lest they lose all credibility and utterly disgrace those who follow the religion. My main examples? Luther's 95 theses exposing the Catholic Church and the twisting of the words in the Bible to be used for hate.

The Boss - January 31, 2007 12:50 AM (GMT)
QUOTE

what have you found that contradicts the Bible?


Ummm, well I think the internet would explode if I named them all so I'll give you one to start out with.

Jesus was born from a virgin. You can't be born from a virgin.

QUOTE
 
@TB you are entitled to your beliefs but are you saying its wrong to believe in something that helps someone grow up with good values and become a productive member of society? One thing that cannot be argued whether your a Christian or not the bible teaches good values and morals unlike our society today. To be completely honest it offends me greatly when someone insults what i believe in. Like WL said why is you choose to pick on Christianity is it because thats the only religion you THINK you know anything about or what? Like i said before you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to be biased because of it but just think about your choice of words in this debate, im not asking you to hold back im just telling you to stay your tongue when flaming something so many regard as fact. You can debate whether you believe or not without saying Christians believe in a


I will argue against any religion but the thing is, most of you are Christians so I am telling you why YOU'RE wrong. I also used to be what would be considered a very good Christian so I feel I am more equipped to argue against Christianity over other religions although I will argue against those too.

I think religion is an overall bad thing for our nation and our world. It steps in the way of science and our overall progress as human beings.

It is 100% ignorance and it perplexes me to think that I ever believed such nonsense or that anyone else would.

The Bible teaches good values but it also teaches bad values and the good value could be learned without any religion and I think that people would be MORE kind to other human beings without the Bible and religion.


The reason I am so aggresive and blunt in my attack against religion is because I don't agree with religious tolerance. People these days are too afraid to speak their minds and criticize other people's beliefs and we should be free to do that, especially against beliefs that are hurting mankind. I think it is time for everyone to take a closer look at what they believe in and engage in debates just like this one and stop being afraid to tell someone that they are wrong.


Windlord - January 31, 2007 01:01 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
My comments on Christianity are the same as comments about every religion except for those who do not have divine beings (such as Buddhism).


and yet i don't see a debate on jehovas' witnessess or muslims, nope just christians.

QUOTE
1. You can not, as any philosophical group, be 100% correct about what you preach, hence why it is called faith. Who cares if the Red Sea split, how do you know 100% that God did it? Religions may have good missions, but since they rely on faith rather than fact they can never be 100% right.

2. In the same aspect, and philosophical group cannot be 100% wrong about their teachings. We cannot disprove that a giant spaghetti monster runs the world and we certainly cannot prove that your own God named Tim doesn't exist. Because religions cannot be 100% wrong, we cannot simply discard these beliefs.


your right in a way, it you can't be 100% sure our faith is wrong. however the faith I have is enough to deside what I cannot explain with fact, and therefore I am 100% yes there are times when I doubt my faith, but those are the times that I realise how much it makes sense.

QUOTE
3. Logic and reason must be present to some degree in a religion. God obviously didn't say that casual sex is wrong because he was in a bad mood, therefore it is unwise to teach it as so. There needs to be an element of reason to religion so that it isn't a bunch of childish babble about what this and that is made of. It's not wrong, but it certainly doesn't make your religion credible when God banned murder because it was a sunday night.


I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say, but God doesn't make rules he makes guidlines, although asa christian I live by those guidlines as if they were rules. basically your not a christian so have pre marital sex all you want, I cna't really find fault becasue you are not my christian brother. and therefore what the bible has to say really has no importance to you.

QUOTE
4. Because your religion is neither right nor wrong, it cannot be forced upon others. You may make choices based on your religion, but you must remember that the good of others mustn't be decided by your religion. Just because your deity feels that bowladromes are hell-holes doesn't mean you should try to ban bowling.


first off we do not force christianity on others. we do however ENforce strogn morals, since the christian life (without the human imperfections obviosuly) is somewhat mor moral that that of a non christian it would seem as though we force our idea;ss on you when really we are jsut tryign to creat a healthy moral environment, and the only way we know how to do that is through the bible and what it says abotu how we should live.

QUOTE
5. Religions must STRICTLY enforce and follow what they believe, lest they lose all credibility and utterly disgrace those who follow the religion. My main examples? Luther's 95 theses exposing the Catholic Church and the twisting of the words in the Bible to be used for hate.


the only thing my "religion" must strictly follow is the words of the Bible. and it's kinda hard to twist the Bible around. yes it can be interprited differently, but it's really not too hard to interprit, and you can easily tell when it's being interprited wrong becasue it strays father and farther away fro mthe original text. also when that happened only the teachers had a copy of the Bible, and if they read somethign they didn't liek they would just change it to thier liking and teach as if nothig nwas different.

edit* to counteract TB


QUOTE
Jesus was born from a virgin. You can't be born from a virgin.



NO your joking...

ok that's what made Jesus
different, your thinking to closeminded. althoug hthat's not suprising, it mentions i nthe bible that mary and joseph were looked down apon becasueno one would believe that they hadn't comitted adultery.

basically Jesus is the son of God, God being his father chose mary to have his son, this doesn't mean God cmae down and slept with like the mythical greek gods did, it just means he sparked the human life of Jesus within Mary.


QUOTE
I will argue against any religion but the thing is, most of you are Christians so I am telling you why YOU'RE wrong. I also used to be what would be considered a very good Christian so I feel I am more equipped to argue against Christianity over other religions although I will argue against those too.



ok that's easier to understand, and I suspected as much.

althoug hI have a question What in (in your history of beign a "good Christian") is your definition OF a christian? and what made you decide to leave it?


QUOTE
I think religion is an overall bad thing for our nation and our world. It steps in the way of science and our overall progress as human beings.



do you think religion casues scientists to discover less if they are religous? well how do you know that theuy might discover more assumign God made everythgin instead of wastign thier tiem tryign to figure out howthe world was made?


QUOTE
The Bible teaches good values but it also teaches bad values and the good value could be learned without any religion and I think that people would be MORE kind to other human beings without the Bible and religion.



name these bad morals please.

"love your neighbor as yourself."
"love others as I have loved you."

how can you get any kinder than that.


QUOTE
The reason I am so aggresive and blunt in my attack against religion is because I don't agree with religious tolerance. People these days are too afraid to speak their minds and criticize other people's beliefs and we should be free to do that, especially against beliefs that are hurting mankind. I think it is time for everyone to take a closer look at what they believe in and engage in debates just like this one and stop being afraid to tell someone that they are wrong.



since you put it that way...

your wrong.

THE DON - January 31, 2007 01:19 AM (GMT)
@ TB give me a bad value the bible teaches?

Also and fro the record you cant just say a Christian is wrong without any evidence to back that statement so far your arguement is pathetic you just say we are crippling society? just so you know THIS WHOLE FRIGGIN COUNTRY WAS MADE BECAUSE OF RELIGION!!!!!!!! you are ignorant and im not flaming but you havent shown any information of why you hate Christianity or any other religion beside the fact that it gets in the way of science. religion itself does nothing to science its leaders in office that cripple science so dont pin that on Christians while we believe on shouldnt "play god" it happens anyway so we really havent stopped anything.

The Boss - January 31, 2007 01:23 AM (GMT)
[QUOTE]since the christian life (without the human imperfections obviosuly) is somewhat mor moral that that of a non christian it would seem as though we force our idea;ss on you when really we are jsut tryign to creat a healthy moral environment/QUOTE]

That's wrong. I'll give you my sources when I get on tommorrow but states that are red states (and more likely to have a higher precentage of Christians) have higher rates of violent crime, burglary, theft, murder, teen pregnancy, and STDs.

Many of the most Christian countries are living in the worst poverty and have the lowest education, civil liberties and rights.

[QUOTE]@ TB give me a bad value the bible teaches?
[/QUOTE]


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Ephesians 6:5


God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

You want some more?


[QUOTE]Also and fro the record you cant just say a Christian is wrong without any evidence to back that statement so far your arguement is pathetic you just say we are crippling society?[/QUOTE]

I'm just warming up and responding to question I have been asked concerning why I target Christianity so calm down.

[QUOTE]HIS WHOLE FRIGGIN COUNTRY WAS MADE BECAUSE OF RELIGION!!!!!!!! [/QUOTE]

Yeh, thats not a good arguement FOR religion. Remember the Native Americans? Well, Christians commited genocide against them.

Also, I'm not saying religion was always bad. It did serve a purpose at one time but we have no use for it now.

[QUOTE] religion itself does nothing to science its leaders in office that cripple science so dont pin that on Christians while we believe on shouldnt "play god" it happens anyway so we really havent stopped anything.[/QUOTE]

Christian leaders are also against many things that could greatly advance our society as well as a lot of our political leaders. There is still very little money being put into stem cell research, something that has the possibility of saving or improving millions of lives at the cost of something that has the same possibility of life as the cells that fall off when you scratch your arm. Also just because Christians HAVEN'T stopped it doesn't mean they don't want to.

Windlord - January 31, 2007 01:26 AM (GMT)
it all comes back to the question you never answered...

what exactly makes a christian?

Firelord - January 31, 2007 01:44 AM (GMT)
[QUOTE=The Boss,Jan 30 2007, 05:23 PM][QUOTE]since the christian life (without the human imperfections obviosuly) is somewhat mor moral that that of a non christian it would seem as though we force our idea;ss on you when really we are jsut tryign to creat a healthy moral environment/QUOTE]

That's wrong. I'll give you my sources when I get on tommorrow but states that are red states (and more likely to have a higher precentage of Christians) have higher rates of violent crime, burglary, theft, murder, teen pregnancy, and STDs.

Many of the most Christian countries are living in the worst poverty and have the lowest education, civil liberties and rights.[/QUOTE]
using the people that don't do what christians are suppose to do is not a reasonablle fight although....

if what you say is true (i don't doubt it) the reason for it is because

PEOPLE ARE STUPID!!!!!

as human we are bound to fail, its what seperates us from God we can not be perfect like he is... but we can try as christians are suppose to do.

and that where God comes in.

if we choose to believe he is real, acknowledge ourselfs as the sinner we are and except him as our savior and that he sent his sin to die for us so that we could one day join him in heaven. we as christiands do and we (not always) strive to do our best to live sinlessly but because we exsist we are sinners. but because jesus die for us on the cross if we live by the bible(the best we can) and believe and except him we (as christian believers) can one day go to live with him.

if you got lost thats ok we're here to explain.

The Boss - January 31, 2007 01:50 AM (GMT)
Yeh, sorry. I edited that last one and didn't see your post or edit. My bad.

QUOTE
he sparked the human life of Jesus within Mary.


Like....magic? That contradicts science just as much as being born a virgin.


QUOTE
althoug hI have a question What in (in your history of beign a "good Christian") is your definition OF a christian? and what made you decide to leave it?


Being a good christian was believing in the teachings of Jesus and that he died on the cross for our sins and was resurected. I went to church, prayed twice a day and did everything I thought I was supposed to do as a Christian.

Then I became very interested in Science and Religion and after learning about other religions, some psychology, a lot of science, and just doing a lot of reading I realized that I was wrong and I was blind for not seeing it.

Science just made a lot more sense and my conscience felt a lot more satisfied.

I don't really talk about my religious beliefs with my mom though because she (like many of you) truly believes in Christianity and God and Jesus and it would kill her to know I didn't believe it and her Christian beliefs would lead her to think we would not be able to see each other in heaven.

QUOTE
do you think religion casues scientists to discover less if they are religous? well how do you know that theuy might discover more assumign God made everythgin instead of wastign thier tiem tryign to figure out howthe world was made?


I don't really understand what you mean but...
Most scientists are not religious but the people who fund their research are and this slows down or stops their reasearch. If scientists WERE religious they would just stop reasearching the cures for diseases because they would not want to work against God. I believe the Amish have a view similar to that.

QUOTE
since you put it that way...

your wrong.


lol, I forgot to include telling them WHY they are wrong.

Lordemblem - January 31, 2007 01:54 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Boss @ Jan 30 2007, 08:50 PM)
I don't really understand what you mean but...
Most scientists are not religious but the people who fund their research are and this slows down or stops their reasearch. If scientists WERE religious they would just stop reasearching the cures for diseases because they would not want to work against God. I believe the Amish have a view similar to that.


Where are you getting these facts from, bossman, man their sounding quite BS to me.

Seriously I want to see a source before I believe such things, or even take the time to contradict such a bold statement.

The Boss - January 31, 2007 01:59 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Where are you getting these facts from, bossman, man their sounding quite BS to me.

Seriously I want to see a source before I believe such things, or even take the time to contradict such a bold statement.


What do you want a source on?

That most scientists aren't religious?
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

That's an old article. I believe the number is up 93% now.

As for the fact that the people that fund the projects are religious or afraid to be viewed badly upon by the religious...most scientific funding comes from the government and most of the government is made up by religious individuals and in some cases the hardcore right wing Christians (whom scare the crap out of me by the way.)

I don't need a source for that do I? I think that's pretty well know.

I don't make this stuff up. I ALWAYS have a source.

Windlord - January 31, 2007 02:03 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Like....magic? That contradicts science just as much as being born a virgin.


God made science, therefore he can bend it.
QUOTE

Being a good christian was believing in the teachings of Jesus and that he died on the cross for our sins and was resurected. I went to church, prayed twice a day and did everything I thought I was supposed to do as a Christian


suprisignly that is correct, I find it hard to beileive you ever truely accepted Christ as your prsonal savior though, either that or you were pushed into it without truly believign yourself.

that's very sad.

QUOTE
I don't really talk about my religious beliefs with my mom though because she (like many of you) truly believes in Christianity and God and Jesus and it would kill her to know I didn't believe it and her Christian beliefs would lead her to think we would not be able to see each other in heaven.


do you want to see your mom in heaven? cus if she is what she is she'll certainly be there waitign for you.

QUOTE
I don't really understand what you mean but...
Most scientists are not religious but the people who fund their research are and this slows down or stops their reasearch. If scientists WERE religious they would just stop reasearching the cures for diseases because they would not want to work against God. I believe the Amish have a view similar to that.


God never said that medicine was bad. My mom has an entire book devoted to christian scientist who discovered cures and such. it's called "Men of Science, Men of God" if you want to research it.

here are jsut a few names of famous scientists that believed in God.

Leonardo davinci
Blaise pascal
John Wilkins
Sir William Petty
Galileo
Isaac Newton

I find it funny that you believe science to be the opposite when many of the founders of science were men of God.


Svir - January 31, 2007 02:29 AM (GMT)
I'm not to going discuss my beliefs in depth because I know where this road will eventually end, but I've been reading up on Deism and have found it not only interesting, but makes a lot of good points. For those that don't know, Deism believes in one god who created the universe, but stops there. Science, laws of nature, evolution, are held strongly to Deists. Deist basically think of it like this, God is like a master watchmaker. He set the rules, and made it all, but then he doesn't have to intervene in our lives and all that because the clock works by itself. He is not present in our everyday lives and such things as the Bible are not his word and organized churches are not his holy places.

I'd just like to share some points made by Thomas Paine in the eighteenth century. I thought they were very interesting myself.

QUOTE
The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

Basically he says all the stories in the Bible of great works are unnessecary and are made up to make people believe.

QUOTE
But the account, as it is given of Jesus in the New Testament, even visionary as it is, does not support the creed of the Church that he died for the redemption of the world. According to that account he was crucified and buried on the Friday, and rose again in good health on the Sunday morning, for we do not hear that he was sick. This cannot be called dying, and is rather making fun of death than suffering it.

There are thousands of men and women also, who if they could know they should come back again in good health in about thirty-six hours, would prefer such kind of death for the sake of the experiment, and to know what the other side of the grave was. Why then should that which would be only a voyage of curious amusement to us, be magnified into merit and suffering in him? If a God, he could not suffer death, for immortality cannot die, and as a man his death could be no more than the death of any other person.

This one is very interesting. If you know you'll come back, if you know you'll recieve the eternal award, why should you fear death? Why does the church make such a big deal of Jesus DYING for our sins when death was of very little consequence? Something to think about.

Also, I've been wondering this lately too... Why does Adam have such a... white name. Adam is an english name, not African where the first man would have originated. It's not even an old name. Also, Adam is not mentioned by Jesus or his disciples in the New Testament, even though Jesus died to forgive the sin of Adam.

QUOTE
ok I have one question I know alot of you thing Christianity is dumb and yur stupid if you believe in it, but all I want to know is why is it that way with only christianity? there are many other similair religons, why do you choose to pick of christianity? I'm just curious...

This can be answered thanks to history! *drum roll please* Christianity is picked on because it is the religion that has touched the most continents, thanks to the aggressive missionary programs launched by the Christian churches. It has been one of the most brutal religions in trying to convert others, matched only by Islamic religion. It has very little tolerance (as a whole) for other religions, leading to such things as the massacre of missionaries in Japan a couple centuries ago. Also, in America, we are primarily familiar with christianity. We could talk about Buddhism, or Hinduism, and talk about their faults, but I doubt too many people would be able to follow. Hope that answers your question.

THE DON - January 31, 2007 02:38 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Also, I'm not saying religion was always bad. It did serve a purpose at one time but we have no use for it now.

ok you just said in an earlier post all religion is bad. Why do you flip on your last statement. Stem cell research is your science argument huh? I thought you would go here but well once again wanting to stop something and doing so are different. Stem cell research is done in other countries and in wariness America is greatly behind in all science aspects compared to the rest of the world. Mostly because ppl whine and cry and find a scapegoat and dont go do something.

BTW that verse in E is interpreted differently times have changed now its dont be a prick to your boss cuz you will be punished ie fired. the bible ist literal it cant be because times have changed as well as the Christian faith.

The other verse is deserving punishment just like you break the law here you are punished are you not? so your saying you hate a law structure and you want anarchism?



Windlord - January 31, 2007 02:40 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
I'm not to going discuss my beliefs in depth because I know where this road will eventually end, but I've been reading up on Deism and have found it not only interesting, but makes a lot of good points. For those that don't know, Deism believes in one god who created the universe, but stops there. Science, laws of nature, evolution, are held strongly to Deists. Deist basically think of it like this, God is like a master watchmaker. He set the rules, and made it all, but then he doesn't have to intervene in our lives and all that because the clock works by itself. He is not present in our everyday lives and such things as the Bible are not his word and organized churches are not his holy places.


i've heard of that, thoug hI don't knowwhy if you admit there is a God you cna't admit to the rest.

QUOTE
Basically he says all the stories in the Bible of great works are unnessecary and are made up to make people believe.


heh that's hat they all say. personally I don't give a crap what they say, they are what they are... God working on earth.

QUOTE
This one is very interesting. If you know you'll come back, if you know you'll recieve the eternal award, why should you fear death? Why does the church make such a big deal of Jesus DYING for our sins when death was of very little consequence? Something to think about.


I thought you understood christianity...

Christs Death was important because he died in OUR place hence the reason we call it a gift, he gave his life as gift so that we wpouldn't have to. and no I am not afraid of death, infact I'll embrace it when the time comes.

QUOTE
Also, I've been wondering this lately too... Why does Adam have such a... white name. Adam is an english name, not African where the first man would have originated. It's not even an old name. Also, Adam is not mentioned by Jesus or his disciples in the New Testament, even though Jesus died to forgive the sin of Adam.


no one really know where the garden of eden really was, but most speculate modern day turkey, not africa.

and in the beginning of the world, all there was was one name... people were named adam after the original adam, the english jsut adopted it into their name choices.(or whoever msot uses that name)

QUOTE

This can be answered thanks to history! *drum roll please* Christianity is picked on because it is the religion that has touched the most continents, thanks to the aggressive missionary programs launched by the Christian churches. It has been one of the most brutal religions in trying to convert others, matched only by Islamic religion. It has very little tolerance (as a whole) for other religions, leading to such things as the massacre of missionaries in Japan a couple centuries ago. Also, in America, we are primarily familiar with christianity. We could talk about Buddhism, or Hinduism, and talk about their faults, but I doubt too many people would be able to follow. Hope that answers your question.


that makes sense, and unfortunatley it is true.

the "Christians" back then were confused as to what exactly Jesus Meant by spread the word. they took it as make everyone becoem a christian where as i nthe truth it meant exactly how it sounds. Spread the word. they were just supposed to inform others of the truth, not force it.

THE DON - January 31, 2007 02:43 AM (GMT)
O and BTW you can get pregnant as a virgin bud sorry
So not poof magic it can happen and has happened b4
source

http://health.ivillage.com/sexualhealth/sx.../0,,1f6,00.html

Anmoriazzah - January 31, 2007 03:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
I think religion is an overall bad thing for our nation and our world. It steps in the way of science and our overall progress as human beings.

It is 100% ignorance and it perplexes me to think that I ever believed such nonsense or that anyone else would.

People these days are too afraid to speak their minds and criticize other people's beliefs and we should be free to do that, especially against beliefs that are hurting mankind.

As if science had all the answers. Science hardly stresses moral values in my experience. That's what many people turn to religion for, and with the proper interpretation, which means disregard certain passages as I see it, they lead pretty good lives that generally don't harm, or actually help others. If you want true science we might as well turn to Nazis and let them do all the sick experiments they want on whoever they want. Compassion, humility, charity, and even faith is not 100% ignorance, nor is science 100% intelligence.

So you think if people spoke their minds they'd turn away from religion? These forums and my existence ell out against that. If people stray from topics such as these it's only because of the inherent hostility. Especially lately I've seen a lot of stuff on the news about religious protests, peoples' feelings about everything from stem cells to drinking which could be supported with religion or science. Without the threat of government oppression, troture and death, we are a much mroe open society/world today when it comes to expressing your beliefs.

QUOTE
ok somethign you have to understand about christianity is that though it does seem very sexsist there are only about three or four religions that a less sexsist. almost all eastern relgions are way worse.

durign that time it was proper to do certain things wheras nowadays what is proper has lessened, and has changed. also it's i na different location of the world where it's customary and normal for them to do things that we would find odd. so basically if you feel you need to cover your head when you pray then it's up to you. for a while my mom did, and then she decided that it wasn't really nescisary.

First of all, that doesn't make it morally acceptable. It's taken a few centuries, but we're beginning to figure that out.

So I guess my question is, are these different interpretations ok or can we deduce a single, 'correct' meaning and value system from the Bible? This goes against everything I believe about God/a divine being, but it's worth asking.

QUOTE
the only thing my "religion" must strictly follow is the words of the Bible. and it's kinda hard to twist the Bible around. yes it can be interprited differently, but it's really not too hard to interprit, and you can easily tell when it's being interprited wrong becasue it strays father and farther away fro mthe original text.


I disagree with this. There are many contradictory sections in the Bible, or at least, things that seem blatantly wrong, such as the seemingly sexist, or at best, unnecessary passages quoted earlier about how a woman should cover her face or how she was created for man and not man for woman. These seem to have a very clear and offensive interpretation to me.


QUOTE
Like....magic? That contradicts science just as much as being born a virgin.

Science just made a lot more sense and my conscience felt a lot more satisfied.


That's why it's faith. Or perhaps divine insemination would be a better term ;)

In my personal experience, science just didn't offer any moral guidance, which hurt me greatly. If science is the only thing worth working within then I think the Nazis were the closest to perfection in this area, save for their intentions being twisted not towards real results but propaganda. Either way, this simply doesn't work for me. There's gotta be some sort of moral reasoning or we're just animals with more ridiculous means of making each other's lives unbearable.

The thing no philosopher has been able to answer however, is why we should follow moral guidelines if God doesn't exist, other than just because it seems nice. If that's the case then it would be in your best interest to grab all the candy you can and only share it with the people you like.

It doesn't have to be a war of annihilation, one or the other. They are not exclusive of each other. Science bring shome the paycheck and religion keeps the house livable.

Windlord - January 31, 2007 04:02 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
I disagree with this. There are many contradictory sections in the Bible, or at least, things that seem blatantly wrong, such as the seemingly sexist, or at best, unnecessary passages quoted earlier about how a woman should cover her face or how she was created for man and not man for woman. These seem to have a very clear and offensive interpretation to me.


ok that all has to do with when the bible was written, as well as some other things, I will explain.

the bible was written when women were expected to submit to men EVERYWHERE not just the middle east. only recently (in the long run) have women achieved equal status as men, it's hard for me to explain considerign I have no problem with women or how capable they are of things. but anywho God created Eve essentially to give Adam someone to love as God loved Adam, and to be his mate.

that is NOT the only point of women so don't misinterprit my words.
Eve as a human like Adam is capable of doing basically everythign Adam can, and vise versa.

BUT when it comes to the church god clearly says it is the mans responsibility to teach the women and children, it's not a question of ability or even status, but more liek it is the man's responsibility.

The Women can learn fro themselves aswell and teach the children.

basically the bible explains it like this.

Man is like the head of God so when men pray they should not cover their heads. Women are liek the head of Men, and therefore should cover their heads... BUT this is John talkign to the corinthians, who were allready covereing the womens heads, he was basically tellign them that that was an acceptable thing to do, and it was proper back then. He also said that it was up to us to judge for ourselves.

I don't completly understadn the passage, and it's probably one of the rare few that is a bit tough for me cus I don't have an extremly deep knowledge of customs of that time. but i can decipher that by no means is it a sexsist passage. feminists today have become so defesive abotu things that thye have poisoned our minds, they try to blame everythign on sexism when sometimes the circumstances jsut seems sexsist.

in the end that's my opinion your intitalled to your own, but God loves men and Women equally and i don't think he meant For women to be pushed around by men, but rahter that they would both respect each other.

the only time the woman NEEDS to submit is if she is dealign with her husband, the bible is very clear abotu that, as for other men she jsut needs to respect them, as they should her.

Lordemblem - January 31, 2007 04:23 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
=The Boss]If scientists WERE religious they would just stop reasearching the cures for diseases because they would not want to work against God. I believe the Amish have a view similar to that.


My apologies, THIS is what I want a source on.

I want to know how you can prove to me that if Scientists were religious that they would simply just stop all their research and abandon everything.

THAT is what I want proof on.

Anmoriazzah - January 31, 2007 05:10 AM (GMT)
This seems to push it more one way than the other as far as I see it. If they are truly equal i see no reason that one should be subject to certain regulations and the other isn't.

These things seem to say to me that women are intended to be 'secondary citizens/people.' Men are the head, women were created for man and should submit to them, at least their husbands if nobody else. Any God worth believing in would certainly hold equality highly; I think these passages point to the signs of the times as you said, but i also believe they are only in there because of the men who were in power at the time. The values they promote would create unbalanced relationships between men and women, especially the husband and wife.

As far as interpretting the Bible goes, these would be passages I would have to disregard in order to truly accept Christianity, but i'm not the sort who can simply toss out a part of something without also questioning the validity of the whole, even the things I agree with.

Firelord - January 31, 2007 12:21 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Anmoriazzah @ Jan 30 2007, 09:10 PM)
This seems to push it more one way than the other as far as I see it. If they are truly equal i see no reason that one should be subject to certain regulations and the other isn't.

These things seem to say to me that women are intended to be 'secondary citizens/people.' Men are the head, women were created for man and should submit to them, at least their husbands if nobody else. Any God worth believing in would certainly hold equality highly; I think these passages point to the signs of the times as you said, but i also believe they are only in there because of the men who were in power at the time. The values they promote would create unbalanced relationships between men and women, especially the husband and wife.

As far as interpretting the Bible goes, these would be passages I would have to disregard in order to truly accept Christianity, but i'm not the sort who can simply toss out a part of something without also questioning the validity of the whole, even the things I agree with.

and thats your choice you don't HAVE to believe. God gave us freedom to do as we will. we can believe in him and except him and when we die go to heaven or we can deny him and die and live forever in the fires of Hell.

Men are seen as a stronger figure than women... BUT today either can be seen as strong.

at the peroid of time the bible was being wrote Men had a high status thatn women...BUT not today

BUT even with todays values and views men ares till seated as pastors not because of gender(or maybe so) but because a Man's voice and low tone can be more convicting than a womens voice.

Christians recognize these guidlines and hold true to them not because we arforcing women to do such but because they choose to.

INFACT missionaries are sometimes women not men and in that they are a pastor like person therefore women can be pastor or pastor like.

sorry i swiched the order of your argument

Windlord - January 31, 2007 01:22 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
The values they promote would create unbalanced relationships between men and women, especially the husband and wife.


ok just talk to any one of the christian girls on here, they'll tell you it's really no big deal, if it were really makign them seem 2nd class I think they would care.

and as far as the whole husband and wife thing, my parents have been married 24 years, I haev yet to hear them fight, and iven though they migth tdo it when I'm not aroudn they sure do get over thigns quickly, this is all because my mom believes inbeign a submissive wife, and my dad believes in beign a kind lovign husband.

The Boss - January 31, 2007 08:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
suprisignly that is correct, I find it hard to beileive you ever truely accepted Christ as your prsonal savior though, either that or you were pushed into it without truly believign yourself.

that's very sad.


Well, I think I did truely accept him but at the same time, maybe I was pushed into it. I didn't really have a choice since I was always raised as a Christian and never taught about other religions.

I think that a lot of people are pushed into it though and they get to a point where they just accept it. Almost like being brainwashed.

QUOTE
do you want to see your mom in heaven? cus if she is what she is she'll certainly be there waitign for you.


I don't think heaven exists. That's why I enjoy the time I have with her now because the odds are that I won't see her in the afterlife because I don't think there is one.

QUOTE
God never said that medicine was bad.


But God would probably consider stem cell research bad which is one of the most promising medical oppurtunities of the century.

QUOTE
here are jsut a few names of famous scientists that believed in God.

Leonardo davinci
Blaise pascal
John Wilkins
Sir William Petty
Galileo
Isaac Newton


These scientists HAD to believe in God or at least act like it otherwise nothing they did would be taken seriously. Are any of those guys from the last century? I don't think I know who John Wilkins is.

QUOTE
ok you just said in an earlier post all religion is bad. Why do you flip on your last statement.


I'm not flipping. Just because it served a purpose doesn't mean I thought it was good or that it was the only way to do what it did. What it did then was help connect people and now it divides people.

QUOTE
BTW that verse in E is interpreted differently times have changed now its dont be a prick to your boss cuz you will be punished ie fired. the bible ist literal it cant be because times have changed as well as the Christian faith.


That verse is VERY clear in what it means and it allows for the keeping of slaves, something which we have decided is morally wrong. You can just totally change how you interpret it because of the times, that makes the whole thing useless.

QUOTE
so your saying you hate a law structure and you want anarchism?


I am very interested in anarchism but it is a Utopian structure and wouldn't work in our world. Morally, I believe that you shouldn't punish an eye for an eye because it only creates a circle of violence.

QUOTE
i've heard of that, thoug hI don't knowwhy if you admit there is a God you cna't admit to the rest.


Maybe Islam is the religion God wants you to believe. In which case both of us would be going to hell.

QUOTE
O and BTW you can get pregnant as a virgin bud sorry
So not poof magic it can happen and has happened b4
source


...do you know what your source said? It said you need sperm, which comes from a male human not God.

QUOTE
Science hardly stresses moral values in my experience.


It is impossible to get morals from science and I don't think you should try. The thing is that humans desire happiness and love is more conducive to happiness than hate is. Many of the morals we have today did not come from the Bible and many of the morals that the Bible says we should have were taught in religions that existed before Jesus was alive. If your into religion just for the morals you should believe in Jainism because it is WAY more moral than Christianity. One sentance from Mahavira somes up more than the bible can say in all of its passages..."Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill andy creature or living being." Christians have done all of those things in the name of their God at one time or another.

I would love to respond to more of your posts but I don't have the time, so sorry if I skipped some. Don't think I am only answering the ones I CAN answer. Also never think I am attacking you, I am only against your beliefs not you. I could probably be good friends with all of you even though we believe in different things.

LordEmblem, I'll respond to your last post tonight or if not tonight tommorrow.

Anmoriazzah - January 31, 2007 08:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Windlord @ Jan 31 2007, 08:22 AM)
ok just talk to any one of the christian girls on here, they'll tell you it's really no big deal, if it were really makign them seem 2nd class I think they would care.

Perhaps they've (women/people in general) come to take things for granted, as seems to be the case for many. How many Americans actually excercise their hard-won right to vote? Things have obviously changed over the past few hundred years when it comes to the role of women in society.

QUOTE
The thing is that humans desire happiness and love is more conducive to happiness than hate is.


I can't argue with that, however, if all we really want is happiness, on an individual level I still think this promotes selfish and incosiderate actions, not to those closest to you, unless you don't relly care about them, but towards the people you have no obligation to.

Moonwalker - January 31, 2007 11:12 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Windlord)
your right in a way, it you can't be 100% sure our faith is wrong. however the faith I have is enough to deside what I cannot explain with fact, and therefore I am 100% yes there are times when I doubt my faith, but those are the times that I realise how much it makes sense.
Wait, so it makes sense when you question your faith? That makes no sense to me at all. If something bad happens, WHY is that supposed to prove any divine being exists?

QUOTE (Windlord)
I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say, but God doesn't make rules he makes guidlines, although asa christian I live by those guidlines as if they were rules. basically your not a christian so have pre marital sex all you want, I cna't really find fault becasue you are not my christian brother. and therefore what the bible has to say really has no importance to you.
I was just trying to show that the rules intact stand for some sort of logical reason. I don't care what a religion says, but it needs to be backed by logic. God said premarital sex is wrong because he also stated that marriage was sacred. He didn't say it was wrong because he was wearing a red sock on a friday.

QUOTE (Windlord)
first off we do not force christianity on others.
We agree then, there was no need for that paragraph, especially when all I said was that I dislike forcing religion on others.

Ranulf - February 1, 2007 12:57 AM (GMT)
Ok, I'll weigh in now. As a Catholic, I believe in God and think that he is an all-powerful being. However, several things are questionable, even wrong in the bible.

1. SEVEN days? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

2. Jesus walked on water? This is believable, as he was a diving being, but you kind of have to prove it.

3. Ever seen Bruce Almighty? That movie proves that a being with so much power has to take a break every once in a while.

Firelord - February 1, 2007 03:42 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ranulf @ Jan 31 2007, 04:57 PM)
Ok, I'll weigh in now. As a Catholic, I believe in God and think that he is an all-powerful being. However, several things are questionable, even wrong in the bible.

1. SEVEN days? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

2. Jesus walked on water? This is believable, as he was a diving being, but you kind of have to prove it.

3. Ever seen Bruce Almighty? That movie proves that a being with so much power has to take a break every once in a while.

1. seven days go read you bible its God if he wants to do it that fast so be it

2.My proof is the bible

3. NEVER and i mean NEVER use a movie as a debate source hollywood along with the other over paid stars need to get a life

THE DON - February 1, 2007 03:45 AM (GMT)
o but TB you said you cant get pregnant as a virgin i was disproving your point.

And anarchism wouldn't work for many reasons even tho you said this here is why one strong ppl would dominate the more weaker people the weak ban together for a authority structure back to a government its inevitable.

Also on the same token you believe in evolution correct if so how do you know thats what happened a big boom started it all it all comes back to faith which is what Christians have in Christ so yea you are just doing it the wrong way in my eyes but the conclusion is the same one must have faith in whatever they think you truly believe the bible is wrong then you have faith that it is i have faith in the opposite either way you are still showing you believe in something.

BTW what drove you away from Christ or was it just to hard and you gave up like a coward HMM?

Lyn - February 1, 2007 07:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ranulf @ Jan 31 2007, 04:57 PM)
Ok, I'll weigh in now.  As a Catholic, I believe in God and think that he is an all-powerful being.  However, several things are questionable, even wrong in the bible.

1.  SEVEN days?  Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

2.  Jesus walked on water?  This is believable, as he was a diving being, but you kind of have to prove it.

3.  Ever seen Bruce Almighty?  That movie proves that a being with so much power has to take a break every once in a while.

i was told to get in this debate- and i will..

okay all beliefs (even evolution) are based on faith. if you have total belief in God, if you really believe the trinity (God, Son, Holy spirit) then believing the creation and stuff isnt all that hard. i mean, if God made all the earth, all creation, wouldnt letting his one and begotten son walking on water be a sinch? its sorta like you make a huge building out of legos 20 ft high, and then someone says "make a 2 inch building!!!" uhhh..its easy. so you make it. its not that big. its the same way with the virgin mary. God made the whole world so simply putting another chromosome in her wasnt all that hard-it was a piece of cake! but it all takes faith. if you dont have faith, you dont have anyhting.

how can the Bible be wrong!? pleaassseee, i wanna know what is wrong.... :Loth: in the new testament there were many view points on certain situtations, all very according to what happened even though there are some minor differences. that doesnt matter-thats actually very good! because if everyones veiw point was the EXACT SAME thats would be unbelievable. everyone has there own thoughts of what was going on-so they wrote down what they thought was happening and was happening....just in there own thoughts.....

-edit- TD made some of the same points as i did...sorry--

The Boss - February 1, 2007 08:06 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
o but TB you said you cant get pregnant as a virgin i was disproving your point.

And anarchism wouldn't work for many reasons even tho you said this here is why one strong ppl would dominate the more weaker people the weak ban together for a authority structure back to a government its inevitable.

Also on the same token you believe in evolution correct if so how do you know thats what happened a big boom started it all it all comes back to faith which is what Christians have in Christ so yea you are just doing it the wrong way in my eyes but the conclusion is the same one must have faith in whatever they think you truly believe the bible is wrong then you have faith that it is i have faith in the opposite either way you are still showing you believe in something.

BTW what drove you away from Christ or was it just to hard and you gave up like a coward HMM?


Ok, I guess you got me on a technicality but it doesn't really help Chirstianity's validity.

I don't need faith when there is evidence that either shows that the universe was created by the big bang and that humans evolved from primates. My theories, about the universe, while not complete can be tested and I can admit that I am not 100% sure that the big bang or evolution happened exactly how some say it did. The same can't be said for Christians. The Bible can't be changed to make it work with things we know to be true, its claims can't be tested, and you basically have to either believe all of it or none of it.

I'm going to start another topic on anarchy because I don't want to get off topic.

Lyn - February 1, 2007 08:18 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (The Boss @ Feb 1 2007, 12:06 PM)


I don't need faith when there is evidence that either shows that the universe was created by the big bang and that humans evolved from primates. My theories, about the universe, while not complete can be tested and I can admit that I am not 100% sure that the big bang or evolution happened exactly how some say it did. The same can't be said for Christians. The Bible can't be changed to make it work with things we know to be true, its claims can't be tested, and you basically have to either believe all of it or none of it.

uh, there is evidence for Creation...and a lot of evidence against evolution...

no, you need faith to believe the big bang- you hear a noise "BANG" and though you cant see it you ask a friend "what made that noise?" your friend says "nothing'' ....that takes faith....

The Boss - February 1, 2007 08:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
uh, there is evidence for Creation...and a lot of evidence against evolution...

no, you need faith to believe the big bang- you hear a noise "BANG" and though you cant see it you ask a friend "what made that noise?" your friend says "nothing'' ....that takes faith....



Can you name some of this evidence?

Also, noise doesn't travel in a vacuum so there would have not been an actual BANG. I am also talking about faith with evidence. In the case of the Bang you would know that something had happened because of it's result. Christianity is faith without reason.

Anmoriazzah - February 1, 2007 09:09 PM (GMT)
The Big Bang isn't a valid theory of 'creation.' Sure, it explains why the galaxies are in their current positions and why the universe is expanding, but it doesn't say where all this stuff came from in the first place, or why this ball of mass would suddenly explode.




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