ok after reading legion and being a bit dissapointed in the ending I reread it and have come to a new conclusion. AL had already been corrupted at the start of legion. It didn't make sense for them to fall for vision they were shown given the secrecy and covert nature of the legion. I doubt they would have taken anyone's word for it as they would have been wary of any deception being played upon them or them being manipulated. allow me to illistrate points in the book that make me come to the conclusion they had already been corrupted.

1. the use of northam falxes in the first chapter, the book mentions the Imperials using nitus on them and destroying the weapons as standard operating procedure and later the AL show up using said weapons- their use of enemy gear for deception could have easily led to their corru-ption. Furthermore the AL knowing a bit about chaos should have been unwilling to use any item of theirs lest they become tainted. They knew mere bone fragments of the Nurtham would corrupt and kill after all that's why they offed Shiban. it seems likely to me they thought they could control and master chaos

2. human alteration- the reworking of human anatomy done to their agents as witnessed by the discovery of the "Dancer corpse" shocked even the medicae personal. while the AL would do this for practical reasons it seems to be a deviation in Imperial practice thus suspect.

3. The surprise raid on CR325 by the Nurtham, right after the body and some of those who see it leave the outpost is hit by nurtham who happed to sneak through the entire main battle line area and penetrate deep to the rear area of Imperial forces to hit the area and slaughter the medicae personel and anyone else who knew about the body? it seems some of the nurtham were either working for the legion thus spreading corruption or the AL altered humans to make the hit. either way this really marks a deviance in the chapter that further suggests they had already turned.

4. The house set up in the Nurth city of Mon Lo near the temple district- the prolonged stay of the Alpha legion there amongst the Nurth for at least two weeks going by John Grammaticus's search and stops in the city may indicate another easy way for the chapter to have been slowly turned.

5. Shere- the use of psychers forbidden by the council shows some deviation, here the alpha legion are technically following the letter of the law while totally disabusing the spirit of it. Furthermore with the induction of psychers of a non astartes pattern into the legion the risk of corruption would have been high. the legion may have been already on the road to corruption after the council and edict from psychers.

6. The use of the word chaos by the astartes both in the house at Mon Lo and at the greeting ceremony. legion was written by Abnett who also wrote horus rising which takes place a little later. the average astates of the luna wolves did not know of chaos or use that word refering to it only as the warp and without any thought of wether their was intelligence inset upon it. yet the Alpha legion captians knew all about it and even used that phrase. Since Abnett wrote both books it seems likely to me the AL knew more about chaos than other legions excepting the word bearers and that implies to me a degree of corruption already.

There is more but I will add to it later

Interesting concept... But how do you explain the attack on the AL safe house in the city?

Some very interesting points, though I would have to say that human alteration is hardly a sign of corruption. It's everywhere in the Imperium from the Primarchs down to the Astartes, the Mechanicum adepts, servitors, etc, etc. The army medicae were likely only shocked because they had never seen anything like it before. An army medic would probably never have to operate on an Astartes, so they would have no need to know of the medical practices of the Alpha Legion or any other legion for that matter.

Belisarius - I think you did a great job on trying to find the evidence in the book about your theory. In my personal opinion you are wrong. Here are the reasons:

1. It doesn't say in the book that the weapons the locals use are in any part daemonic or possessed. Sure AL use them - why not? It beats having just a combat knife and a bolter since chainswords are too noisy and not all SM have access to power weapons.

2. As mentioned above, human alternations are not the signs of going Chaos but rather the way how AL gets it's recruits.

3. This one is tough and easy. AL needed badly to have any witnesses silenced but without the actual AL marines in operation. To send the operatives to do the job is to invite a chance of more IG personal involved in the matters. Now how AL managed to pass this information about the camp to the locals and how they infiltrated I have no idea. That is only known to the Primarch of AL. ;)

4. The house in the the city is just a base of urban operations. I don't see anything "chaotic" about it.

5. Throughout the book there are some indications that senior staff (the First and Second Captains) have some kind of psychic abilities for they are aware of things that Shere does to John G. It doesn't mean they are corrupted does it?

6.

(I changed it for you). I think there is nothing illogical with having the knowledge about some basic "chaos" things and still being loyal. First of all, it's AL business to know everything about the enemy. Second, if AL for sure knew everything about Chaos they would've bombarded the whole dam planet from the orbit. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm not so sure that Exterminatus was used so frequently before the Emperor's interment into the Golden Throne. He vehemently opposed the use of viral bombs and other "ultimate sanction" weapons in all but the most extreme cases.

I do agree that there does seem to be differences of Chaos knowledge between the Luna Wolves and the Alpha Legion. Given that the same guy wrote both books, it does seem that Dan intended the Alpha Legion to have this knowledge.

Hard to say, but that is an interesting theory...

AT LAST
I finally got that damn book! Started reading it yesterday, 100 pages down, 300 to go to finally be able to follow this thread....

Where I stopped Grimaldus was in trouble with a Legionnaire and his psyker servant...

Yepeee :D

Ju
Kaleb daark

Do you mean Grammaticus?

And the book gets even better after that he's captured, and has even more twists and turns.

Keep reading, and enjoy it!

Hmmm.... Maybe Ju's 'secret project' is a Black Templars army, led by Chaplain Grimaldus...

;)

Why the Hell did I wrote Grimaldus?!!!! :blink:

Of course I meant Grammaticus....

Jeff you know what my secret project is ( evreryone will this week end with the first pics), Don´t mislead our brothers ;) :P

Kinda difficult book to read for, many words and expressions I didn´t know and had to search... ( I´m french...). But very well written ( DAN ABNETT MY HERO) very complex... Like it very much so far ( much better than the eisenstein thingy...)


ju
Kaleb Daark

Heretic! Eisenhorn is the best BL fiction EVER!!! Baaaaahhhh!!!!

At least, that's my opinion lol.

Mislead? An Alpha Legion cell commander? Nooo.... I'd NEVER do that!

;)

I´m talking about the "flight of the Eisenstein" man. I made a single mistake but that doesn´t mean I´m confused with all the names :lol:

I didn´t have the chance to read the Eisenhorn books yet, But I certainly was told that they´re excellent.

Ju
Kaleb Daark

Something I've picked up on reading the book again. If you look at page 170 with 'Omegon' talking to Chayne after Grammaticus kills the lucifer black outside the dining pavilion. The line I mean is right at the top of the page.

'That's all you get'

Then if you look to the back of the book to where Chayne is killed fighting Alpharius.

'That's all you get'

So who actually kills Chayne? Is it Ranko (the terminator marine) as you get that same reference? It would explain why Dan wrote in that Chayne actually got through the defenses of an Astartes, because for some reason it is significant.

Also, another idea about that. Maybe the Legion needed their blood on the blade left at the scene of the attack so they can be identified later by someone who thinks they're being clever, but its actually just the next stage of the Legion's plan.

Just mad ramblings,

Take it easy everyone.

Hmmmm interesting point.. Well spotted and I like your thinking.

now time for the Oelitto treatment. (ie I just finished it)

1. for Kalarns point on Chayne, he sword was wedged into Alpharius' torso and unable to be pulled out by Chayne. removing the threat of "Chayne's extraordinary swordsmanship." but the "that's all you get" was a great little mind mess-up at the end.

2. Tactics: revealed in this text was:
A: Use of Infiltrators, unmodified and modified humans. recruiting as need and expertise dictates.

B: Use of power armoured teleportation. i found that particularly interesting.

C: Use of shadows, nice literation but might be employed in actual game.

D: a lack of vehicles, as far as i can remember the only AL vehicle was the ALPHA and BETA Battle barges. vehicle designation was another nice piece of info.

3. Psykers; iirc it was edict that Sorcery was banned, not use of Psykers. IA: Thousand Sons, WD 267

4. Omegon does seem to have more personality than Alpharius, but that could have been the writers over-egerness to get readers to accept the whole Twin Primarchs.

5. Another mention to the unknown legions, with the way they keep mentioning it, they might make another comment in the next two books.

6. Something has been left for another book, over the AL's growing involvement in the heresy actions. namely in the events of Istvaan Dropsite massacre dont add up with this book.

more later.