Gilraen's Song, RESOLVED

RESOLVED

Gilraen's Song

Used three times in the movies.
This thread deals with the longest version, at Gilraen's Grave

Soundtrack CD - TTT SE Soundtrack CD, bonus track 20, Farewell to Lorien
CR/FOTR - Disc 2, Track 9, Gilraen's Memorial

Source Text:

Gilraen's Song

A chéneg a ionneg
Danna si fuin
Tolo na rengy nin
Beriathon
A núriel annant
Trin aduial
Ne dúath roeg dagech
Ne theilien
A chéneg A ionneg
Pant galu pant glas
A naenatha hún nín
Ne chinn lín cenim:
Le iôn adar lín
û iôn naneth lín

This starts with a cappella voices led by a soloist and
concludes with choral voices overlaid with dramatic orchestration.
It's the latter part I can't hear.


The order sung, to start:
Estel
Le iôn adar lín
û iôn naneth lín
A chéneg A ionneg

no time stamps yet.
need lyrics that come after this section.

From SF:

I can hear “Estel! Le iôn adar lín, û iôn naneth lín. A chéneg. A ionneg.” too - but after that it is hard to hear….

time stamps from clip of just that song.

0:38 - (Choir) Danna si (I'm pretty sure about that)
0:46 - Tolo na rengy
0:58 - nín
1:02 - “le” or “ne”

I’m NOT SURE at all…

I can kind of hear what SF is hearing. But when I get to
0:46 Tolo na rengy
I seem to hear more syllables than those words have.

Can anyone provide more of a breakdown here?

I was just looking over old correspondence. Aty said this:

4:05 - 4:36 from Farewell to Lorien
(magpie: this is the section of Gilraen's music where orchestration wells up behind the choir - it corresponds with 0:38 in the other posts here)

this is one more THEME as I guess:
as the scene comes from when ragorn is in Rivendell, you can compare with many meetings, but this last sentences are from "Elbereth Gilthoniel" or " Rivendell Theme"

magpie's response: I had been thinking that this bit of music was also from Gilraen's Song but I suppose it doesn't hurt to consider that it's from A Elbereth. Aty doesn't indicate which words she thinks are sung where.

Just gave another listen:

There are really 4 parts to listen to:

• Part one - Solo voice a cappella - starts the piece
• Part two - a cappella choir - joins in after one line, the solo voice may continue but if so, it blends well with the choir
• Part three - choirA with orchestration - they start this next section with three syllables. Then, I believe, they continue with a held note under Choir B till the end. I can heard their voices at the end, simultaneously with Choir B. I don't know for sure what they're singing but one could speculate they continue following the source text. I can't tell if the two choirs are singing the same syllables at the end.
• Part four - choirB with orchestration - they join in after ChoirA starts out and sings while ChoirA (likely) holds a long note. Then the two choirs sing three syllables simultaneously with each other. I don't know if they're the same syllables but in other songs, this has been the case. (See the counterpoint for Haldir's Lament, for example )

(I don't mean to imply that I think there are three separate choirs. I'm sure there's only one. I've just broken it down into parts.)

The time stamps I have are this:

Single solo voice:
[00:00] Estel
[00:05] Le iôn
[00:06] adar
[00:09] lín

a cappella choir
[00:14 ]û
[00:16] iôn
[00:19] naneth
[00:20] lín
[00:25] A
[00:27] ché
[00:29] neg
[00:33] a ion
[00:35] neg

ChoirA plus orchestration
[00:39] Dan
[00:42] na
[00:46] si
[00:54] fu ?
[00:58] in ?
[01:02] ?

ChoirB plus orchestration
[00:47] Tolo
[00:49] na
[00:50] rengy
[00:53] ?
[00:54] ?
[00:58] ?
[01:02] ?

How does this compare with SF? I think SF is hearing Tolo na rengy at a much slower pace than I am. I can hear a syllable like 'nin' at 0:58, but I think I can hear two quick syllables (for To-lo) at 0:47 and a pretty clear 'na' at 0:49, followed by two more syllables at 0:50 (for rengy). That leaves two more before we get to 'nin' at 0:58.

I didn't really consider A Elbereth for the ChoirA/B parts. If it's from there, I don't think I'd ever determine which lines. I would like to believe they kept it all from one source text.

And here's the same time stamps but for Farewell to Lorien TTT Bonus track (instead of an isolated clip of just the song)
Single solo voice:
[03:26] Estel
[03:31] Le iôn
[03:32] adar
[03:35] lín

a cappella choir
[03:40] û
[03:41] iôn
[03:44] naneth
[03:45] lín
[03:51] A
[03:53] ché
[03:55] neg
[03:59] a ion
[04:01] neg

ChoirA plus orchestration
[04:04] Dan
[04:07] na
[04:12] si
[04:20] fu ?
[04:24] in ?
[04:28] ?

ChoirB plus orchestration
[04:12] Tolo
[04:15] na
[04:16] rengy
[04:19] ?
[04:20] ?
[04:24] ?
[04:28] ?

Hi all-
Gwen here, listening to "Gilraen's Song"

When I try to piece together the lyrics, I listen to match the sounds with words from the source poem/song, but I also try to extrapolate a "meaning" or the "essence" Howard Shore might have been trying to bring out. Of course, not all the words of a given poem or song could be used in the score, so I try to make decisions that make sense in terms of what I hear added to what is logical in terms of making the overall theme of the song fit.

So, I think my time stamps below make sense in terms of what I can hear, and they make sense with what the song might be trying to "say"...

"Estel, you are your father's son."
"Not your mother's child."
"Little boy, little one"

"Night is falling"
"Come into my arms"
"In the shadows"

...This seems to capture the overall feeling of sadness and loss that Gilraen must have felt.

Choir A sings "Night is falling" as counterpoint while
Choir B sings "Come into my arms"and "in the shadows"

Choir A
[00:39] Dan
[00:42] na
[00:46] si
[00:54] fu
[00:58] in

Choir B
[00:47] Tolo
[00:49] na
[00:50] rengy
[00:54] ne
[00:56] thei
[00:58] li
[01:02] en

Gwen, I think you're very possibly right. I'm always qualified in my agreement because I know how easy to mishear lyrics. But this sounds very plausible, audibly... and your rationale is very good. And I know you have a good ear and a precise nature. All add up to as close to sure as I ever get.

Thanks, thanks, thanks to all three of my Lyrics Ladies. I love combining strengths (and interests) through collaboration.

Hi-

I am fairly confident that I hear "ne theilien", however, I am inclined to think that it somehow fits in a different layer with overlapping time stamps.

It makes more sense to me to have Choir A sing "Danna si fuin" and "ne theilien" as a counterpoint to Choir B singing "Tolo na rengy nin". To do it that way would seem to me to enhance the 'atmospheric' feeling of the piece....
meaning - the choir in the background sings "night is falling....in the shadows" while the other group continues with the idea of Gilraen speaking to Estel as she/choir sings "Come into my arms".

It will be difficult to pull this apart, because, except for "danna si fuin" which is sung in a very deep register, the remaining words are sung in the same octaves by similar voices.....

Just an idea, but it makes sense to me, and I can hear all those words. So, Magpie, you get to make the final determination!

Well, my final say happens mostly because I have to format the page and upload it.

Would you consider writing a short explanation of what you're thinking about this music? I've done that in other places and I hope people find it useful or interesting. I could try to write it but I would be mostly interpreting your words and that can't be for the better.

I don't think I'm going to spend any time trying to figure out if I agree or disagree with your reasoning. One... it isn't of high priority or interest to me. Which is why it's great to have multiple people working together. We get multiple areas of interest. But mostly I really do trust your work and not only would it be a duplication of effort for me to go in and try to verify something, but it would be a duplication by a lesser talent. Your ears and your musical background are better than mine. I'm not going to micromanage anymore than I need to.

If you do decide to write something up, you could post it here or just email it to me.

The list of FOTR songs is proceeding but there seems to be a lot more singing than I realized. My next track to listen to is The Fighting Uruk-hai, which means there are 6 tracks left. Then I have to redo a bunch of other pages with the new information the list creates. I'm not going to upload anything till all that is done. So there's no rush.

Thanks again
M

Hi Magpie, do you have that email I sent you with the lines sung in "farewell to lorien" (theme of Gilraen)???? It´s because I told you, that in "Farewell to Lorien" track, the last sentence seems to be from "rivendell theme"......Take a look .

Look further up this thread for my post dated: Feb 19 2006, 04:31 AM

You hadn't provided any suggestion about what words from Gilraen's Theme being sung where, and we seem to be making the lyrics provided in the source text 'Gilraen's Theme' fit in pretty well.

Can you provide some specific syllables you are hearing with specific time stamps?

I know that the lyrics can be from multiple sources and things don't always appear to make sense. But if I can make Gilraen's Song's lyrics fit this song, I'd be more comfortable than trying to make A Elbereth fit. I'm always open for the suggestion, though. If you can provide the time stamps, I'd be interested in what other people are hearing.

Ok....so I'll try to take the time stamps of what Iwas saying......I don´t have them right now, but are the last words, that both of you put an (?)...lol..........I hear something like "...ereth"..than the very last sound like "iel".........and I could not find those sounds in words from "Gilraen Theme."

And I don´t have the extended movie, so I can´t see where this piece is played in the movie!!!!!! remeber I told you: Shore said the the music always has to do with the scene, so, if on that scene Aragorn was in Rivendell, it can be "Elbereth Gilthoniel"...Or it can be a word from " Namarie" if the scene backs to the giving of the presents by Galadriel.........


But all these are just guessings. I will try to do more seroiusly from now on. I will come back only with some time stamps!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aty - Angela

Be sure to take a look at Gwen's post, since she made a suggestion for our ??'s. I think her suggestions are pretty plausible.

To see what's happening, you could take a look at this page:
Farewell to Lorien cue by cue, although I didn't write much:

A solo voice joined by a choir sing. This music is used for the scene where Aragorn visits his mother’s (Gilraen) grave. Elrond joins him and they discuss Aragorn’s destiny as heir of Elendil.

Also, check out the special forum link I sent you.

HI...and sorry for being so doubtful. I am very happy with the work from Gwen! She is fantastic!.....

So, sorry again, but yesterday I kept listening Farewell to Lorien all day, and now I´m quite sure that those lines are really from " Gilraen Song" ...... not from rivendell.

But,
I can´t hear the words " Ne theilien"......I'll keep trying. And thanks a lot with your work and Gwen and other people.

I can´t wait for "the two towers" complete sdt......I don´t have any idea about that "the taming of smeagol".....lol....