6. The Dead Marshes, FINAL RESOLUTION

FINAL RESOLUTION ACHIEVED

The Dead Marshes:
CR-TTT; Disc 1, Track 11


*The dead Marshes 3:13



I ngyrth sí ú-lostar.....................................The dead do not sleep here
Ú-chiriar îdh..............................................They have found no rest.
Hiriar harch ring a nîd............................... Only/(They found) a cold, dank grave.
Tano i óner................................................To mark what they gave.
Io na ndagor Veleg ..........................To a great battle -Long ago.
Na dûr ben-galu,........................................To a fruitless victory.
na naeth arvethed.....................................To endless woe.
Mín galad a chuil ban.................................One light for each life.
Mín sarch a ngurth ban..............................One grave for every dead


3:11 Ú ch(h)i ?
3:13 riar
3:14 i ngurth
3:15 u
3:16 lostar
3:17 harch îdh
3:18 ring
3:19 a nîd
3:21 tano i
3:22 oner io
3:23 na io
3:24 na
3:25 nda-
3:26 gor
...
3:43 ve-
3:45 leg

there is maybe a using of Ngurth in a double sense : Ngurth (plural and Mutaded gorth = dead and Ngurth = death)

Maybe with this, they form a two (or three) phrases in one

They have found the death
the death (reprise) do not sleep
Following of the Fist sentences:
(and) a grave and a rest cold and dank
for what they gave to a battle ago, to a battle long ago
.......... (and the battle was) GREAT


(edited by Magpie: number added to Topic Title and fuller citation of CR disc and track provided.)

I: 1:55 until 2:00 first sound effect with voices
II:2:06 until 2:14 seconde sound effect with voices
III: 2:40 until 2:45 third sound effect with voices

(The three sounds are the same but the third is another progression, for the music before is different from the music of one and two )

at 2:50 start of violins for some this can be seeming at voices but in my mind there is no doutb.

IV: 3:11 the lyrics are startings, that is the "Sprechstimme" (see the A.S.)

V : 3:20 while the "Sprechstimme" are going on sound effect with voices start again but there, they are differente. they are full yellings.

VI: 3:26 First end of "Sprechstimme".

VII: 3:43 One word who is seeming to be VELEG is sung. Just before, "V" has ended.

Minas Morgul... first some questions.

You said, "at 2:50 start of violins for some this can be seeming at voices but in my mind there is no doubt." My question is... 'there is no doubt as to *what*?' There is not doubt that these are not voices but instead violins? I think that's what you mean but I want to make sure.

Are you comparing your section V to your sections I, II, and III? That is, are you saying it's the same sort of 'sound effects with vocals' for all 4 parts?


Next, I just want to compare what my initial thoughts were with MinasMorgul's and gkgyver's from moviemusic.com.

From 1:55-2:45

• AS-TTT: Apparitional portamentos (magpie: think slide whistle), guide the composition down a more ghoulish road. Lyric soprano Isabel Bayrakdarian, coupled with violins, slowly bends pitches upward as the bodies of dead Men, Elves and Orcs that litter the swamp water peer back at the living with blank faces.
• Magpie: Although the AS-TTT doesn't specify *where* the portamentos are heard, I think it is this section with the portamentos heard around: 1:55, 2:07, and 2:38
• MinasMorgul: doesn't label this section portamentos but identifies sound effects with vocals as 1:55, 2:06, and 2:40
• gkgyver: first said, "The way I see it, the section between 1:55 and 2:45 don't contain portamentos in the voices. Isabel Bayrakdarian's voice seems to be singing glissandi." When asked about the AS-TTT's reference to portamentos... he said he may be mistaken in calling them glissandi rather than portamentos.

Conclusion: I think I and MM are close enough in timestamps. The question is, are these the 'portamentos' that the AS-TTT refers to? I think they are.

Things get harder after this.

• AS-TTT: The veil of aleatoric strings and timpani again lowers and Frodo is bewitched. He falls into the murky waters where he’s wrapped in a smear of Schönbergesque Sprechstimme voices (magpie: think musical muttering), half singing, half speaking the text “The Dead Marshes.”
• Magpie: thought perhaps the Sprechstimme started around 3:16
• MinasMorgul: thought the Sprechstimme started around 3:11 and ended at 3:26... although he called this a 'first ending'. Where do the vocals resume then? At 3:43 or sometime before that.
• gkgyver: thought the Sprechstimme started around 3:25. He thought the singing between 2:45-3:16 was 'regular singing'. He didn't address the gap between 3:16-3:25 but I'm guessing he means the range to extend from 2:45-3:25.

Comparison of opinions:
MM thinks the Sprechstimme ends at 3:26... gkgyver thinks they start there.
MM thinks there are no vocals before 3:26... gkgyver thinks they're singing in a regular manner.
MM must think the Sprechstimme resume after 3:26 since he calls this the 'first ending' But he doesn't say where they resume.

Well, you can see we don't have much agreement here. Since I asked this question at moviemusic, there's some chance Doug Adams will weigh in. If so, we may get some answer to this. But if not, I'm going to avoid the whole darn issue. The reason for proving lyrics and timestamps is so people can 'sing along' (at least, that's my reason). No one will be singing along to this music. We could bust our heads against the wall but never know for sure (without help from official sources) and it wouldn't matter much if we did know. Too much effort required for too little reward.

We can continue conversation... but I'm not holding out for resolution.

Okay... for what it's worth, here's what I wrote up for this section. Feel free to comment.

Some of this music is not used in this movie. Starting at 3:11 on the CR (The Dead Marshes) and 1:05 on the OST (The Passage of the Marshes) the sound in the movie becomes muted, as if under water, even before Frodo falls into the water. The muttered voices on the soundtrack would correspond with the bodies under the water that are swimming toward Frodo. The final burst of noise (CR: 3:45 -- OST: 1:36) when the voices stop kind of correspond with Gollum pulling Frodo out of the water.

There are some differences between this music as heard in the OST and in the CR.

• The Portamentos: The CR has three portamentos (1:55-2:45), the OST only one (0:35-48) which corresponds with the last portamento on the CR. This last portamento on the CR is a little longer than on the OST. Isabel Bayrakdarian's voice slides up the scale along with the strings but I don't think she's singing any lyrics.
  
  
• Frantic strings: There's a run of frantic high strings that increase in pitch that is longer on the CR (2:49-3:11) than on the OST (0:48-1:05). It's possible that there are some high voices adding to the chaotic 'noise' of the strings, but if so, I don't think they're utilizing any lyrics.
  
  
• Bombastic brass: This section is the same on the CR (3:11-3:45) as on the OST (1:05-1:36). This contains the Sprechstimme voices (I believe). It's hard to tell if they start as soon as the brass intrudes onto the earlier strings, or if they start a few second after. Likewise, I can't tell if they last until the end of the final loud, brassy notes, or stop as brass makes their final, loud statement. I think there is probably little chance we could determine exactly what is being sung here.

I wanted to mean that at 2:50 to (3::11) There are only violins (or other instruments of music. I am not enough specialist to say what they are exactly).

for me there is only lyrics of a song between 3:11 and 3:26
but There is a last word at 3:43 who is part of the song. With this word, "veleg" I think, we have the second and last end of the song. (these are IV to VI, and VII)

I give a time stamps for this song : see above !!

for others voices I,II,III and V (for me) there are no words, only sound effect with voices. they can be called with others names. (I think that I,II,III are the portamentos of the AS, for we heard them when we see the face of the deads in the marshes while)

maybe there is an other name for "V"

Well, I could be very wrong... but I think they may be singing lyrics after 3:26. I do think the voices 'change' at 3:26.

Unless Doug weighs in, I don't think we will know. Thanks for clarifying your notes.

After doing our best with the choir heard in the Banishment of Eomer and finding we were dead wrong, I am going to declare some lyrics PROBABLY UNRESOLVABLE. That means that, due to circumstances, unless new official information becomes available, I will not be publishing any guesses or speculations on these lyrics.

That doesn't mean that people can't work on them or make their speculations. It's only fair warning that I will probably not publish those speculations.

TTT Live choir's phonetic lyrics and notes:

6a. The Dead Marshes (The Dead Marshes)

EENGUERTH SEE OO LAWSS-TAHR OOKHEE REE AHR EETHEHEE-REE AHR HAHRKH RING
I ngyrth sí ú-lostar ú-chiriar îdh Hi-Hiriar harch ring

AH NEED TAH NAW EE OH-NAIR YAWNAHNDAH-GAWR VEH LEG NAH DOOR BENGAH LOO,
A nîd Tano i óner Io na ndagor veleg Na dûr ben-galu,

NAH NYTHEAHR VEH-THED MEEN GAH-LAHD AH KHOOEEL BAHN MEEN SAHRKH
Na naeth(?) arvethed Mín galad a chuil ban. Mín sarch

AHN GOORTH BAHN
a ngurth ban. (A-11,3:11-3:45)

Directions say to "whisper randomly" and "murmur randomly"

The choir score has "een guerth see --- een guerth see oo lawss" before the aleatoric section.

"een guerth see" are the three portamenti?

This is pretty much all we need so...

FINAL RESOLUTION