Title: 3. Pippin tears off his Elven Brooch
Description: FINAL RESOLUTION
minasmorgul - December 22, 2006 07:07 AM (GMT)
These lyrics are RESOLVED
Please see last post for final determination.
Ugluk's warriors TT CR 5/1
4:26 he(o) ??
but oft (he ??) would watch/him but oft would watch
this can't be Heo (she) because there is no girl in this scene nor "they" for wacode is subjonctiv third person singular.
maybe it say that one of the fellowship, legolas ??, would watch the ugluk warriors/or the lorien's leaf
but i don't know if this syntax is possible.
I say that can be Legolas because he has the best seeing and He has a scene next this "track" where he look for the ugluk warriors. ;)
but i think that is rather for someone who would watch the "Lorien leaf".
(subject heading edited by Magpie)
magpie - January 1, 2007 03:54 AM (GMT)
I wouldn't try to force these lyrics to make sense. The poems were written and translated and given to Shore. Shore made very little attempt to reconcile the translated text into cohesive phrases or sentences.
I could list example after example where this is the case. If one looks at the English translation of the text actually used in the singing it does not make sense or even apply to the scene.
With regards to this song, I can't hear anything well enough to even guess. Therefore, I'd like at least two opinions on what people hear before putting anything on the website. Until that happens and we're feeling happy about our results, I will just link people here for more information.
Sabsi - January 1, 2007 11:34 PM (GMT)
I hear 3 syllables
But I'm not sure at all! :unsure:
minasmorgul - January 2, 2007 12:32 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Sabsi @ Jan 2 2007, 12:34 AM)|
|I hear 3 syllables|
But I'm not sure at all! :unsure:
and after, we hear all "Wacode" (I think) that's mean "would watch"
I also think that the song speak about the "Elven leaf/broch**".
maybe the lyrics are He(o)* ac oft wacode.
* "she" become "he"
but I am not good (at all) enough to say that OE phrases could be, and what's that really mean !
at any rate, "Wacode" and the scene, are ,for this time, enough to say that the lyrics say something about "somebody" who would watch the elven "leaf/broch** ".
** Aragorn say later about the broch : "No Idly do the Lorien's leaves fall"
Sabsi - January 2, 2007 01:15 AM (GMT)
I couldn't hear 'wacode', but maybe you're right, though it's pretty hard to hear (at least in my opinion).
To be honest, I thought it was a drawn out 'oft' and I'm still not 100% sure about 'wacode'..
Second thought: It could be something different.
Maybe (I'm NOT sure)
Source text (The Missing): Ac oft héo wacode sunnanwanung
Your suggestion: Hé ac oft wacode
Wrong order! I know, Shore does that a lot to match with his music, but since each word (hé, ac and oft) has just one syllable it would have been unnecessary to do it here...
magpie - January 2, 2007 01:36 AM (GMT)
I can tell it gives you great pleasure, MinasMorgul, to make these lyrics make sense and that's great. But I honestly don't think they need to. The lyrics for The Missing were not, IMO, written for this scene and I'm not even sure why they were used here. Why use Old English in a scene having nothing to do with the Rohirrim. If they wanted to tie it to the Elvish Brooch, it would be Sindarin or even Quenya. It would probably be Sindarin in connection with the Hobbits or Aragorn.
I don't think this song was chosen to speak about the Elvish Brooch. If anything it was chosen because Merry and Pippin are 'missing'.
And I don't think they would tinker with the text once it was translated (changing she to he). Howard was given a portfolio of translated texts and he used them. He didn't rewrite the texts or retranslate those rewritten texts to fit different situations.
Besides that, like I've said before, Howard was more concerned with the sound of the finished music than the meaning of the lyrics. Words are often broken up so much as to be almost gibberish. I wish I could find some quotes but I've read ones where someone (probably either Howard or Doug) has said they weren't concerned that the translations of the lyrics chosen to be sung needed to make sense. Two pieces from the OST- Forth Eorlingas are good examples. The words Cuiva Olorin are completely jumbled up and only fragments of words from The Mearas are sung.
So... you may take pleasure in your pursuits as you wish, but trying to make these lyrics 'fit' doesn't convince me of anything. If anything, it makes me worry that someone will try to force what they're hearing to 'make sense' and take what they hope to hear over what they do hear.
minasmorgul - January 2, 2007 02:04 AM (GMT)
Annotated Score :
"The final chorus outburst in this piece, which uses "The Missing" was not used in the film, but appears here on disc in its intended place"
And until now I haven't saw the lyrics had no sence.
for "the call " in "Forth Eorlingas" or "Gandalf the White" I have not enough of studies to say !! but elsewhere the work is serious and it's a good thing.
if what you say about the "sense" was true, in this case I had to ended to find something because I can't do anything with or to the chaos !
magpie - January 2, 2007 02:09 AM (GMT)
I'm going to throw another possibility in:héo for
(léas) - all slurred together - or evenhé(o) forléas
(I can hear three strong syllables and I believe the last is sustained. I can get no indication of a change in tone.)
This could explain the f that we're hearing.
The translation for this line:
Earla thinga the héo forléas.
Of everything that had been missed.
taking into consideration that héo can mean 'she' or 'they' (neither of which are in the original English).
We need a sound tech to monkey with the sound and enhance the vocals. :-)
I think your original timestamps need to be edited. You have 4:26 when you surely mean 1:26.
I've read the AS. I'm not sure what point you're making. They meant to use it... decided not to... then added it back to the mix for the CR. It doesn't explain "why" they used it.
"Chaos" -- good description.
Check out my website for those two examples. It will give you a good idea of how obsessive and methodical I can get.Forth Eorlingas
Off to watch DVDs with the family.
magpie - January 2, 2007 04:48 PM (GMT)
addendum: It might be interesting to note that "The Missing" is used for two other cues: The Burning of the Westfold and Eowyn learns of Aragorn's Fall. Both of those cues used the same two lines:
Héo dréag ðá losinga
Earla ðinga ðe héo forléas.
If I were right, it would mean that they used the last few words from that same phrase... which could make some logical sense. However, using this argument doesn't carry much more weight than trying to make the translated lyrics make sense... so I'm not letting it influence me too much.
magpie - April 12, 2009 09:35 PM (GMT)
Per Sabsi, the phonetic choir lyrics for the TTT Live symphony for this scene are:
EE VAHN ROH
She wrote (in private email):
|According to the AS, the source song is ‘The Missing’, but I don’t think so. These syllables don’t match the text of ‘The Missing’ at all. ‘Namarië’ would make sense, since it’s also used on the plains of Rohan in ‘The Three Hunters’, but – of course – I’m just guessing.|
I tend to agree with here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going with this as our final answer and will declare these lyrics RESOLVED